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Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
    Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 15:35
Pat condell is an Atheist from England who speaks with passion. I believe his focus is about the Islamicist that threaten our free speech ,such as, the Organiztion of Islamic States.

Pat Condell in Italian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-IE-RPt0MI&feature=player_embedded
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Deathless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 10:15
Originally posted by Athena

Okay, can we begin working with some agreements? 
 
1. Islam is not original, but is built on knowledge of Judaism and Christianity.
 
2.  Mohammid wasn't mystically given knowledge of God's word, but got it from Christians and Jews who lived in his nieghborhood.
 
3.  There are reasons he and his followers did not convert to Judaism or Christianity, and they created a new religion.
 
4.  Like the beginning of Christianity there were many different versions of God's truth, until a group of people were given the authority to chose which stories to put in the holy book and which ones to throw out. 
 
5.  Among the believers there was a power struggle and a division.  This division and power struggle lead to wars.  True for both Christians and Muslims.   Also true in the long history of Christian and Muslim wars, leading Genghis Khan to tell his people to never choose one religion over the other. 
 
6.  Within both Christianity and Islam there have been leaders who supported their holy word by embracing Hellenism and also leaders who strongly rejected Hellenism as pagan.   Europe would not have progressed as it did, if it had not been for the later chruch embracing Greek and Roman classics and Scholasticism that spread this knowledge, leading to the Age of Reason and Age of Enlightenment, and our Statue of Liberty who holds a book for literacy and a torch for enligntenment. 
 
7.  All the God of Abraham religions claim God has favorites and that this God commands them to kill people in fights for land and to manage the problem of fighting evil, usually justifying the fight for land, by claiming the people who need to be removed are sinners and evil Godless people. 
 
8.  Christianity and Islam both say the Jews blew it with God. 
 
9.  Protestants and Muslims say the Catholic church distorted the revealed word and used religion to get money from people. 
 
10.  Hebrew is a sematic language with the same peculiarities as Arabic, and there is not absolute agreement about the correctness of any holy book, other than all the different groups like to believe their holy book is the best.   This includes the Mormons who give us a very interesting holy book about a lost tribe in south America, and some rather curious explanations of God's truth.   Oh, we might also mention the Bahi' because they also claim to have a better, up dated knowledge of God's truth.  A couple of women started new Protestant faiths, by writing their God inspired new truths, such as Christian Science and the Seventh Day adventist.   And didn't a Mongolian leader in India have some success at blending Hinduism, Islam and Christianity for awhile?  But now this is getting off topic, except that there is agreement the Jews had God's truth and that the the Torah is not the last word on God's truth, and the bible is not the last word on God's truth, and the last days will come with terrible suffering.  
 
How are doing so far?      


Good good..

Side-Note : neither Christianity or Judaism are original religions
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 06:35
Yes, Franco!
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 21:41
We do not have to look at kings in the far past. Do you recognize this?

"Caudillo de España
por la gracia de Dios"
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 15:13
I would use the easy method to explain most of the above, that is it could be suggested and considered that the old maxim; "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

Certainly the connection of Church and State, set the stage for "power", and the "corruption" of that power led to the assumption of "absolute power", when both the Church and the State were "one!"

Thus when a "king" was given his position via the "grace of God" or rather by "God's representative" on the Earth, then that king could certainly feel that he must have absolute power! After all "God" or at least his representative had actually placed the crown of domain upon him!

It seems that problems arose once these God annointed Kings, actually took actions to prove their God approved strength and correctness!

But, then the Pope(s) and other religious powers, saw a threat to their own power! Thus, the two often became embroiled in a great power struggle!

It is merely in the nature of some men and women to assume too much!

Edited by opuslola - 19-Nov-2010 at 15:14
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 12:37
What is interesting it was Muslim philosopher Averroes that came up with the idea of separation of church and state.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 12:00
Okay, you two are arguing the principle I was wanting to get at.    And when the Puritans came to the New Land they made enemies of natives, unlike the Quakes who made friends with the natives.  Both these groups used the bible, but they interpreted it differently. Puristians like Muslims focused on purity.  Quakers focused on Jesus and friendship.  Puritans share more in common with Muslims than Quakers.   Actually Cyrus, there is more agreement between Muslims and Christians, than there is between Christians and Christians. 
 
 Our Constitution makes freedom of speech and freedom of religion and separation of church and state the law, in part because we have had all the experiences that are making Islam a problem today, the fighting against each other, religious persectution and war.  What Christians have done to Jews even before WWII is terrible!   Muslims are doing nothing new, and Christians are not better than Muslims.
 
I have been told Islam can't tolerate the separation of church and state  that caracterizes Christian countries.    Well neither could Christians, unitl there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and enough commerce and wealth to make it impossible to prevent our freedom and liberty.  Then the people realized democracy is better than rule by kings.  However, even today, plenty of Christians are opposed to secular education and secular government.  Some of them have isolated themselves in communities they control.  Others home school their children, to protect them from the secular world.  Christians are as opposed to secularism as Muslims, but they do not have control, and dare I say, this lost control is what Muslims fear, so they fight.  AM I SAYING THIS WELL? 
 
CHRISTIANS SHARE MORE IN COMMON WITH MUSLIMS THAN ONE CHRISTIAN GROUP SHARES IN COMMON WITH ANOTHER CHRISTIAN GROUP.  WE JUST STOPPED KILLING EACHOTHER BECAUSE WE LIVE UNDER A SECULAR CONSTITUTION WITH A SECULAR GOVERNMENT THAT DOESN'T ALLOW US TO KILL EACHOTHER AS WE DID IN OUR PAST.    IT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY THAT GAVE US PEACE.  IT IS DEMOCRACY AND OUR SECULAR GOVERNMENT THAT, GAVE US PEACE.
 
Cyrus, I objected to your thread because it was promoting a falsehood than Christians are better the Muslims.  I don't think this how you meant it, but I thought you were from the US and that is how all the Christians in the US would see it.  I believe the majority of voting US citizens would have voted Bush out of office for invading Iraq, if Bush had not mobilized the Christian Right to vote him in office.  He did this by making it a vote on things like abortion and opposition to homosexuals, you know those things that regulate our private lives and should not involve government in our lives.  These are not the political things that really matter, compared to invading a country that was not mobilized for war against the US, and whose people were not our enemy, but religious people think religion not politics, and they like to believe their leader is doing the will of God, and they are easily malnipulated, regardless of if they are Muslim or Christian. 
 
The correction is secular government and secular education, with freedom of religion and speech made law.   Humanity must promote rational thinking and the highest morality, without relgion.   We most vote rationally, not with religion that is not good for worldly affair.  This does not mean without God.  A notion of God is important, but we have to keep in mind we can not know this God and His will.  It is our powers of reason and democracy that brings us to peace,  and manages our conflicts peacefully, and raises our human potential, not religion. 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:35
C4E, maybe you miss read my post above, where I said quite clearly "or something similar", thus please read this site;

http://www.who2.com/charlesi.html

Whereby you can read these words;

"Charles was married to Henrietta Maria of France, a Roman Catholic whose influence on the king was not welcomed by the increasingly Puritan populace... The king was High Anglican..."

On that point I rest my case!

And nine years in the history of England is merely a pimple!
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:47
Yes, he did make nation smarter. I don't think the executed king was papist and 9 years of terror was not that short.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:33
I actually think that Cromwell and his short venture left a good side to England and to religion in general!

He made people smarter!

And, as regards his "reign of terror" you would not have been terrified unless you were a "Papist!", or something very similar!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 19:37
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:19
I still think that looking at Puritans in England would fit you purpose. It is an ultimate story of corrupting influence of absolute power on a religious sect. It also may provide insight on Iranian Ayatollahs and why they will fail an hopefully die before angry mob tears them into pieces.
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:07
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Athena - to understand Puritans, you have to read about Cromwell an his reign of terror in England. 
 
This information sounds interesting, but it was not my intent to understand Puritans.  It is my intent to understand power and how it changes from one generation to the next. 
 
Human organizations are like other living organisms that go through different stages of development. We can think of them as giant ameba, consuming whatever they can consume and excreting what they can not consume.  They grow and they shrink and they have defensive behaviors.  If they do not successfully manage the threat to them, they die.   Islam has been in decline for many years, and has not kep pace with the west.  Clearly Islamic countries are threatened right now, and the last thing I would do is send in Christian misionaries, or bring in booze and other precieved threats.   The more threatened Muslims feel the worse things will be.  If I let my dog shit in my neighbors yard and gave his children drugs, he might not be so nice to me, and even if he liked playing cards, he would not want to social with me.   My view of politics is very simplist good or bad manners. 
 
 I think we should distingish a difference between behaviors done when a human organization is expanding its power, and its behaviors when it feels threatened.   In both circumstances it may commit acts of war, but obviously the motive is different.   Hum, aren't there some military geniuses who had something to say about this?  
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:12
Dear Cyrus, I just thought I post the entire news story;

"OTTAWA — Iran is warning its citizens not to come to Canada out of fear of widespread Islamophobia sweeping the country.

A story posted on the website of the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting news agency states the foreign ministry in Iran issued the warning earlier this week. The agency claims crime rates in Canada have soared recently and Iranian nationals may fall victim to this new crime spree.

The government of Iran is warning its citizens to take extra precautions if they visit Canada.

The Iranian government also claims Muslims in Canada are being denied “social and political rights” and police are not following up on complaints filed by Iranians in this country.

In addition to warning citizens to stay away from Canada, the government of Iran also recently warned its people to stay away from France, also citing Islamophobia there."

Yes, yes! Canada the homeland of extreem Islamophobia! Yes, yes, I can see it from those terrible Democrat Socialists who run the nation! Yes, they are haters if I ever saw one! Yes, haters all! The especially hate the USA! Yes, indeed! The have become the entry point for millions of illegal immigrants over the last 20 or more years, who mostly end up in the USA!

This terrible nation hates the USA so much that they have harbored criminals from the USA for the last 40 years or so! Yes, yes! They hate the USA and Iran! Yes! Yes!

Well now we see just how stupid some people can be! Canada is perhaps the most safe nation on the planet, unless one plays Ice Hockey!



thanks for the report!
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:06
Athena - to understand Puritans, you have to read about Cromwell an his reign of terror in England. 
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:59
It is interesting to read the news: Iran warns citizens of dangerous Canada, so they, who killed that poor Canadian journalist in Iran, are not dangerous but Canadians are dangerous!!
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 11:34

Cyrus,  as I learn about the ancient Cyrus and Zoroastrism, I want to change my user name.  I surely need to change what I said in the thread questioning Persian religion and war.  That was the mistake of reading biased history and not knowing any better. 

I read the original Puritans were really cool people, but each generation after the first generation that landed in the New Land, got worse.  Cyrus appears to be an extordinary person, but those who followed were not great in the same way. I think we can equate Cyrus' rise to power, with Constatine's  rise to power, and Mohammed's rise to power.  It is the perfect blend of a new religious insight and hope that attracts and motivates followers, with worldly power at the right time.  Daris the Great was not the good man Cyrus was, but he was an organizational genius, and it was this genius that made Persia a stable empire.  Jesus did not start a new religion, but it was Paul who was worldly enough to turn the religious insight into a religion, and is probably because of the oriental influence on Judism.. 

How open minded can we become, and how honest?  It takes different qualities for a nation to be both highly moral and strong.  Obama is an idealist, but is lacking in worldly strength.  Bush is a scandal but had a lot of worldly power until near the end.  Clinton is a good blend of the two, idealism and a wheeler and dealer who can say anything with a smile as long as it achieves his goal.  The present leader of Iran is appealing to those Iranians who will buy into his bid for power by appealing to their hatred of the US.  This is very worldly.  Like Bush's bid for power,, he is misusing religion.  Laden was wondering in a desolate region of the world, wanting the power and glory of his family back in Saudi Arabia and he catapulting himself from a no one body,, to a person known around the world,  by misusing relgion.  This unfortunately started a misguided Muslim movement we all regret.     

Behind every leader is followers, and perhaps we need to pay more attention to those followers, and  the circumstances?  I will fall back on what I said about about the Brittan and the US causing a problem with Muslims.  And go back to what I said about many of these folks living as people lived in ancient times, and suddenly having the technology and weapons of this century.  Talk about culture shock the trauma to a belief system and social order.  These folks have to be dealing with some pretty heavy duty culture shock.  But there is more to be said.  Leaders are brought up by the wave of circumstances.  Obama won by  a land slide because of the great opposition to Bush.  Another effect of Bush is the current leadership of Iran and determination of develop nuclear capabilities.  This too is a counter- Bush reaction.  However, Obama's failure to have earthly power is troubling.  Jesus didn't have earthly power and given his circumstances he could not.  Cyrus had earthly power and used Zoroastrian to revolutionized Persia,, but following Persian leaders focused on worldly power and were not good for their religious movement. 

See this play of powers?  The religions get politicized and become destructive forces.  We must separate the religions from politics, because human beings can not know the will of God, and none of us should back a leader with the belief that leader is doing the will of God. 

I feel like I have just spent days working on a very complex math problem.  Why Muslims are dangerous people is exactly the same reason Christians can be dangerous people POLITICS AND BEING WORLDLY.   



Edited by Athena - 18-Nov-2010 at 12:11
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 05:37
Originally posted by Athena

Prefect Cyrus, Now is it your religion that gives you your point of view or your culture?  Exactly what are the traits of an ideal man?
 
I think you have told us you perfer Bush over Jesus?  That is choosing a man of war over a man of peace, and this is not dictated by religion, but by what guys perfer.  Both Christian men and Muslim men perfer to follow men of war.  Why do you think that is? 
 
Modern Iranian culture is a mixture of some different cultures, including the Islamic culture, I don't deny that there are some good things in the Islamic culture, in fact the Islamic culture is also a mixture of Arabic, Persian, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Egyptian and other cultures. I believe religion is a holy non-developable culture, Islam, Christianity and other religions were certainly great at their early times and they hepled to develop their societies but their holy books didn't change with developments, unfortunately followers of these religions consider them as the words of the god and unchangeable, that is the problem, culture changes but religion is fixed and permanent, so my culture gives my point of view.
 
And I have never said that I prefer Bush over Jesus, the first one was a political man but the second one was a religious man with no political power, it is not clear what Jesus would do, if he had also a political power, like Muhammad. It is clear that for a long time, his followers proved to be ones of the worst men of war.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 18-Nov-2010 at 05:40
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 01:17
Thanks Opuslola, not too bad for a female, huh?   However, I have done a lot of editing.  I need to work a better system for writing out my thoughts while in the process of research.  It would be cool if the forums had a draft file, where we could keep post that are thought processing.  It is obvious when I am processing information, I should not be posting it, because it is gibberish. 
 
I strongly objected to this thread, and now it has lead into such interesting research, I consider it one of the best threads.  We must take question of Muslims, further back.  We must go back as far as Zoroastres and the Avesta, the Book of Knowledge and Wisdom.   This is not just an account of a religion that was absorbed into Judaism, then Christianity, and returned to become Islam, through the editing of Mohammed, but it is also an account of religion changing in the hands of those who have political power.   I really think we need to give this some consideration. 
 
Time and again, along this religious chain, what starts as spiritual considerations, becomes politicalized, and this is exactly what is causing so much trouble today.  I never before had so much appreciation for the separation of religion and politics.  We must not have evanglist like Billy Graham and Pat Robinson and Bin Laden bringing men to war.  Bin Laden does not have the military might of the US, so he is a terrorist, rather than an invading army doing the will of God, but he too believes he is doing the will of God, and we get this right out of ancient religions. 
 
Zoroastrian Ethics from Will Durant's "Our Oriental Heritage"
 
By picturing the world as the scene of a struggle between good and evil, the Zoroastrians established in the popular imagination a powerful supernatural stimulus and sanction for morals.  The soul of man, like the universe, was represented as a battleground of beneficent and maleficent spirits; every man was a warrior, whether he liked it or not, in the army of either the Lord or the Devil; every act of omission advanced the cause of Ahura-Mazada or of Ahriman.  It was an ethic never more admirable than the theology- if men must have supernatural supports for their morality; it gave to the common life a dignity and significance grander than any that could come to it from a world-view that locked upon man (in midieval phrase) as a helpless worm or (in modern terms) as a mechanical automaton.  Human beings were not, to Zarathurtra's thinking, mere pawns in this cosmic war; they had free will, since Ahura-Mazda wished them to be personalities in their own right, they might freely choose whether they would follow the Light or the Lie.  For Ahriman was the Living Lie, and every liar was his servant. 
 
Jesus most certianly gave the poor of Rome a human dignity, as many years later he gave Black slaves a human dignity, and Martin Luther King was able to transition this into a civil rights movement, that has changed the US and lead to us having a Black president.  This is an awesome feat that occurred in a very short time.  But it does not being with Jesus, nor with Judaism, and it may not begin with Zoroastria.  I need to research India's religious notions and see if the Bhagavad-Gita comes first, because it clearly explains this war between good and evil. 
 
But as the problem with jihad, how do we understand this holy war and our role in it?  I said we must be more moral/pious, and an insulting comment was made.  Our evanglist Christian leaders and Bin Laden would have us fight this war with weapons of war, killing each other.    This is not how Jesus told us to fight the war.  He told to fix ourselves.  And Cyrus writes of Jesus and Obama as pathetic and weak.  So now why are Muslims dangerous?  Do Muslim women agree with the Muslim men about this?   How necessary is it for men to like John Wayne or Captian Kirk instead of like Gandi?  


Edited by Athena - 18-Nov-2010 at 01:28
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 22:19
The above post was very good Athena! As well as very worthy!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 17-Nov-2010 at 22:26
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 22:11
Interesting quote I heard on TV. 
"Some Muslim societies look like Christians in XIV century, except they have XXI century weapons"
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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