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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Human right in Europe
    Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 14:45
Any reason why these doesn't apply to nations without a country ? Kurds, Balochis, Palestinians, Tamils +++. Police raids on both their property and broadcasting networks are widespread - Belgium, Denmark, Germany (you name it). Their oppressors and occupants surly aren't innocent regarding these raids and human right abuses, but why does it have to be like this IN EUROPE ?


Edited by Azadi - 04-Mar-2010 at 14:49
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 19:23
Sorry Adiz, I did not really comprehend your above post! Perhaps you might well post it in Arabic, and then have it translated into English by someone else?

I certainly do not understand "police raids" unless you are talking about Iran, or Saudi Arabia, etc.?

MHNBP!
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 02:35
I don't know what gas station you get your news from, Opuslola, so excuse me if you don't comprehend my post. But to enlighten you: the most recent raid was on Roj TV, MMC and Newroz, wereover 300 Belgian policemen (all over Belgium) raided and crushed the facilities of the biggest Kurdish broadcasting channels, and violently arrested dusins of journalists who worked there. I can come up with more examples, but I will let you ask about this at your respective gas station. Catch up with me afterwards.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 08:27
Originally posted by Azadi

Any reason why these doesn't apply to nations without a country ? Kurds, Balochis, Palestinians, Tamils +++. Police raids on both their property and broadcasting networks are widespread - Belgium, Denmark, Germany (you name it).
 
It is probably due to a combination of reasons:
 
- The raids are often requested or pressured by Turkish, Israeli, Sri Lankan etc governments. 
 
- Some movements have planned, funded or incited armed resistance while using European countries as bases.
 
- After a generation of mass migration, nativist feelings are rising in Europe. Police are more willing to request search warrants, judges are willing to grant them, and appeals courts are less likely to rule that searches were illegal, that activities are protected free speech, free press etc.  The general public is also less likely sympathize with immigrant groups.


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Mar-2010 at 08:39
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 12:52
Thank you for an extensive answer, Cryptic. That last point is something most Europeans would deny though.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 14:22
Perhaps Azadi, the following site describes some of your contentions?

http://counterjihadeuropa.wordpress.com/

Regards,
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 16:20
That site is: "Building Networks and Coalitions Against the Islamisation of Europe"

The nations I mentioned in my first post rarely fight for the rights of muslims and Islam in Europe, and Islam in general - really. And their causes mostly don't involve religion, but the right for autonomy and an independent state. Therefore I did not comprehend why you would send me that link.

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 19:14
Because, all of the European attacks against "Facist Muslims" is justified and needed! Assholes are like people, I.e., every one has one! Or, at least, every group is full of them! Or, some of every group are "assholes!"

And, wether or not you agree, these so called "Democratic" and "Christian" nations have already given every Moslem that has resided there, all of the protections that a native of that nation might have, extremists of the Moslem persuasion, have taken care to "segregate" their selves and their religion, from the Natives!"

So many of you are so "egotistical" that you think you can actually "invade" a peaceful Western nation, and then by "Hook or
Crook", then proceed to seperate your pitifull opinions as being outside of the morals and precedents of the nation who being somewhat "Christian" allowed you "assholes" to enter!

Sorry if any of you think that I am "flaming!", but "facts are facts"!

It really comes down to an old tenent of Islam, where it is supposedy written, "A guest in my house is given to be as one of this house!" That is, "one is only considered as a "just" guest, as long as one respects the "Land-lord!"

Regarde"
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2010 at 19:26
Azadi!

Perhaps we are both seperated by language? I would be willing to guess that I perhaps, have mis-represented your poing?

But, strange as it seems, when I tried to look up your so called outrages against Islam, I was told via the inter-net accounts, that that particular site was "not available!"

To me, that means that those sites have been invaded and eliminated by persons who hold your opinions!

But, I just might?, well be wrong!
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 06:09
Are you for real ? You brought up Islam and you sent me that anti-muslim website.

What I'm trying to tell you is not that muslims have limited rights and their rights are being abused in Europe, I'm not even suggesting that, you brought it up in the first place. For Gods sake, the reason we are in Europe is because of the socalled "muslim" leaders in the middle east (with the help of European imperialists).

So even through most of us, the stateless people, are muslims, doesn't mean you can call us fascists and assholes, this is a mentality the occupants of our homelands have forced upon the world, together with "extremists, terrorists, maniacs, shit".

Originally posted by opuslola

So many of you are so "egotistical" that you think you can actually "invade" a peaceful Western nation, and then by "Hook or Crook", then proceed to seperate your pitifull opinions as being outside of the morals and precedents of the nation who being somewhat "Christian" allowed you "assholes" to enter!

Are you talking about us, the same people who got "invaded" and divided though blood feuds and artificial borders when the imperialists were looking for oil and strategic military bases ? Excuse us, we've to apologize to you. But have you never asked yourself why we, the oppressed people, are in these "peaceful Western nation"s in the first place ?

So, if you want to discuss something, please read the whole text and do not go off-topic, and do not start fights over stuff that has nothing to do with the question.

Btw, what are these "so called outrages against Islam" I'm talking about ? I never even mentioned that, opuslola. But if you want anti-Islam websites, I found some within 5 seconds, and none of them are hacked, invaded or eliminated.

http://www.vlaamsbelang.org/
http://www.sioeengland.blogspot.com/
http://sioe.wordpress.com/
http://siad.wordpress.com/
http://siad.dk/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.libertiesalliance.org/
http://www.akte-islam.de/1.html

(Also, "Building Networks and Coalitions Against the Islamisation of Europe" is the title of that site - http://counterjihadeuropa.wordpress.com/  - which you sent to me).


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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 08:02
Originally posted by Azadi

Thank you for an extensive answer, Cryptic. That last point is something most Europeans would deny though.
 
Your welcome.  I agree, most Europeans would deny that nativist feelings are rising, but it is clear that they are. Mix rising nativism with the fact that a certain number of Muslim immigrants have refused to intergrate and / or have called for dual societies and things could get worse.
 
The "Burka" ban issue illustrates the divide at the fundamental level.
 
Democratic Europeans have banned a style of clothing and their courts have supported it. A generation ago, those same courts would have ruled the bans unconstitutional and the European public would have called the bans harassing.  Today, the bans are ruled constitutional much as they have been in Turkey, Tunisia, etc. 


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Mar-2010 at 08:08
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 14:13
Dear Azadi!

Perhaps, again, I am making relys based upon mis-understood actions? If so, I apologize!

But, if you are refering to raids made by Western
European police, upon radio stations operated by "freedom loving Kurds", who only temporarly reside in these Western European nations, then I have not found any news accounts that support your view(s)!

So, if possible can you give me working site addresses that give an either biased or an un-biased account of what ever it is that you mentioned earlier?

All I have been able to find are allegations of slave trade, (Other crimes) and extremist actions by certain groups of Muslims in these Western nations!

Thus, I have little else to rely upon!

Again, language may be the problem? But, it could of course only be my stupidity!

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 14:43
Sharia Law!

By the way Azadi! I went to one of those sites you listed as being anti Muslim! And I found this list of Sharia belief;

"•Offensive, military Jihad is a religious obligation.
•Inferior status for all non-Muslims (known as “dhimma”).
•Capital punishment for slandering Islam.
•Capital punishment for apostasy (leaving Islam).
•Women may not leave the house without husbands’ permission; beating disobedient women, polygamy, forced child marriage, and stoning of adulterers are permitted.
•Slavery is legal.
•Lying (“taqiyya”) to infidels is permitted.
•Capital punishment for homosexuals and lesbians."

Do you deny the above? Do you support the above? Are you neutral about the above?

You see sir, that most Westerners consider the above beliefs as "barbarian!" And, a typical Westerner would not really desire to know that a neighbor of theirs practiced such beliefs!

There really exists no place in the West for such beliefs, and especially such actions made in support of it! But, of course the word "Ghettos" comes to mind! Perhaps Western nations could confine believers in the above into such areas, within strong walls, policed and enforced restrictions, etc.? Then perhaps reverse migration might well began? Who knows?

My self, I fear such beliefs and any societies who believe in such things!

If good can come of it (Sharia Law), then God is evil!

Just my humble opinon, and I hope you treat it as such?

But, as always,I could well be wrong? If so, and if there is a God, then I will soon know the error of my ways!


Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 06-Mar-2010 at 14:46
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 16:15
I totally agree with you, Cryptic, if only more people could be like you. But I'm just sorry for the behavior of todays disgusting (also funny) "Muslim" dictators like Gaddafi, who declare Jihad on entire countries... Muslim immigrants who refuse to integrate (in a certain degree) makes this just worse. Examples of stuff that irritates me is that the same people who live in Turkey accepts the Burka-ban, but get mad at Switzerland when they implement the exactly same law... were is the logic in that ? In your homeland you do not question your own government because it's the will of the founder, and in the other you want a foreign government to bow down to your own beliefs ?... LOL

Now, Opuslola, I think you not only misunderstand me, but also the concept of the Sharia laws in the world we live in right now.

But first, you mean the police raid on the Kurdish TV channels some days ago ?
Here are some (not only objective, but many times also anti-Kurdish/Palestinian) websites who have reported about the abomination:


I can find MUCH more, if this isn't enough.

Now to the Sharia laws. These were laws who worked in the Middle Ages, today they're getting abused and used in a wrong way - not that I support them. But to have something clear:

1) I support the immediate execution of pedophiles who have abused and raped children, or harmed children in any other sexual way.
2) I support the immediate execution of mass murderers.
3) I support the immediate execution of brutal dictators.
4) I support the immediate execution of persons who have sold children, women or any other human being.

Does this also make me "barbarian" ? Let me take a country who "practices" the Sharia laws, for example: Saudi Arabia. If you kill another person, that persons family is allowed to take your life according to the laws - but be real now, how much of this do you see ? The murderer usually gets away, especially those higher up in the system, by bribing officials. Those points you mentioned have more in common with culture rather than religion, for example those are TOTALLY sickening for let say, the majority of the Kurds, while Arabs in Afrika look at them as divine laws. This has also much to do with the community and the co-existence of more than one religion in an area over longer periods. Many Muslims in let say Afrika still call Christians devils, infidels etc. While Muslims in the middle east, especially in the center of the area, have lived in peace with Jews, Christians, Ezidis for thousands of years (you will find some non-tolerant groups here too, like everywhere else).

Btw, we're are getting VERY off-topic here.

EDIT: Video of the police raid on the Kurdish broadcasting networks in Belgium: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibaTZnfSG8



Edited by Azadi - 06-Mar-2010 at 16:21
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2010 at 17:35
Originally posted by opuslola


By the way Azadi! I went to one of those sites you listed as being anti Muslim! And I found this list of Sharia belief;
 
The historical muslim Sharia law is very different that the currently proposed Sharia law by many fundamentalists.
 
Historical Sharia law placed a great deal of emphasis on public acts verse private acts. Public acts were treated far more harshly because they were perceived to put the entire society at risk. Private acts were given more leeway.
Originally posted by opuslola

Sharia Law! 

My self, I fear such beliefs and any societies who believe in such things!
Conservative Christian parts of the USa practiced "Sharia Light" based on Biblical principals until recently. Your home state was one of these and the "Sharia light" was practiced in Mississippi during your younger days. Whether in Christian Mississippi or Muslim Jordan  "Sharia light" was / is used to protect traditional social norms.
Originally posted by opuslola

and stoning of adulterers are permitted.
In traditional Sharia, the sex must be witnessed by three people. That tended to differentiate between merely private acts and public acts which were perceived to threaten the entire society.
 
As a side note, adulterers in the USA could be shot at one time with little punishment, especially if the shooter was a family member and otherwise a moral man by biblical standards.
 
 
Originally posted by opuslola

Capital punishment for homosexuals and lesbians."
Actually, it is usually only male homosexuals. Anyways, Uganda recently proposed the death penalty for homosexuals. Uganda is a Christian magority nation and the proposed law was inspired by passages found in the Bible.
 
Any chance that violence against public  homosexuality went un punished in the conservative Christian parts of the USA if the pepertrator was perceived to be protecting traditional social values? Were those values not based on Bible passages regarding homosexuality?
Originally posted by opuslola


•Capital punishment for apostasy (leaving Islam).
The Bible also implies a very harsh punishment for some forms of apostacy.  Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.  That means totally rejecting what is good (God ordained) and calling evil "good". The original Sharia law followed this tradition. Doing this publically placed society at risk.
Originally posted by opuslola

Capital punishment for slandering Islam.
In past generations, slandering Christianity was a pretty hazardous thing in Mississippi. Once again, no "official Sharia law", just a refusal to investigate by the police, not enough evidence to convict, or the jury found him innocent based on the "fighting words" doctrine.
Originally posted by opuslola

beating disobedient women,
That was allowed in many parts of the United States until about 1960.  Such acts were seen as "private matters". Traditional interpertation of Bible passages was used fairly often to justify it, especially if the man was an otherwise moral person and the woman "immoral" by biblical standards.
  
Originally posted by opuslola


•Slavery is legal.
The Bible also permits slavery.  Slave owning U.S. Confederates were very keen on these passages.
Originally posted by opuslola


You see sir, that most Westerners consider the above beliefs as "barbarian!" And, a typical Westerner would not really desire to know that a neighbor of theirs practiced such beliefs!
Pretty ironic, given the un official punishments in Mississippi (until recently) to those who openly violated traditional religous based codes of human behavior.
 
I am surprised you are so opposed to Muslim culture. Christian Mississippi was even an Honor Based Society like many muslim nations.   The average Muslim would have felt far more comfortable in 1890s Mississippi than in Boston.  Though the "Sharia" code was more lenient in Mississippi, the core principals of honor and traditional culture were very similar.


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Mar-2010 at 19:25
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2010 at 14:33
First off, I highly suggest ignoring opuslola. Now, to answer your question:

Originally posted by Azadi

Any reason why these doesn't apply to nations without a country ? Kurds, Balochis, Palestinians, Tamils +++. Police raids on both their property and broadcasting networks are widespread - Belgium, Denmark, Germany (you name it). Their oppressors and occupants surly aren't innocent regarding these raids and human right abuses, but why does it have to be like this IN EUROPE ?


Perhaps it is because many of these groups without nations are active in supporting insurgencies/"terrorist" organizations?

European governments might be using this as an excuse to do this, or perhaps they really do have links with such organizations. Also, peoples without states have less of a political influence, which makes it easy for a country like Turkey to lobby a European government to close down a radio station or tv station.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2010 at 18:35
Firstst of all! I would recommed that everyone dennote special attention to any post made by "The Great Simba!'

This poster has a mastery of numerous points in history, and should be considered as a "primary" source! By those who do not discriminate!~

I highly regard him/her since we have had so many good discussions!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 07-Mar-2010 at 18:41
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2010 at 15:56
The following quote is from a site that "Cryptic" gave, its address is;
http://counterjihadeuropa.wordpress.com/


"I also aim to draw attention to the salafist ideology. It is not inoffensive religious speech. Far from it. In fact, it is a dangerous ideology which should be prohibited. For Islam, there is no distinction between religious speech and political speech. Both have been overlapping for 14 centuries. The Western concept of a civil company and a free press which can criticize the policies of the government, religions or any idea, does not exist. Criticism is seen as an attack against Islam, a blasphemy, a hate speech aimed at more than one billion people at the international level.

This concept that any criticism of Islam as a religion, ideology and political program is an attack, a blasphemy, a provocation, a slander, in short an offence when it is not a crime. This tramples on International law and Canadian Law. One recently saw it with the resolutions adopted by the Council of Humans Rights on the initiative of the Member States of the Organization of the Islamic conference. Reporters without borders qualified this development as “dramatic”.

In Canada recently, we had the amazing declaration of the Ontarian Commission of Human rights showing Mark Steyn publicly and the Maclean magazine to be “racists islamophobes”, without even having heard them. And yet, the writings of Mark Steyn published by Macleans relate to the cultural impact and long-term policy of the growing Islamization of Europe related to the fall in the birth rate of indigenous Europeans and the massive immigration of Moslems who have more children. The CCDP is currently dealing with a complaint of “hate propaganda” against Maclean and Steyn, and has opened an investigation. One can disagree with the theories of Steyn. But to censure, or to even try to censure any debate under pretext that certain Moslems “are offended” is a true treason of the principles of a healthy democracy.

This vision of rights and freedoms represents, in fact, represents a threat to democracy and freedom. According to the logic of the Ontarian commission, it would be necessary to denounce Pope Benedict XVI as a “racist islamophobe” since Moslem leaders are deeply offended that he baptized ex-Moslem Christian Magdi Allam. Influential Moslem religious dignitaries saw nothing less there than one declaration of war against Islam, an attack against a billion Moslems. Always according to this logic, it would also be necessary to prohibit the diffusion in Canada of the writings of Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen, which are seen like deeply offensive by many Moslems. Where will stop this new form of Enquiry, this witch hunt?"

Now Azadi, I do not have any problem with Kurds, or you! As a matter of fact, at least within Iraq, I have always been of the opinion that the Kurds and the Kurdish question, was one that the USA and its allies should support! And, I support the Kurdish seperation from Iraq, as well as a Kurdish share of the oil profits due to them!

As I stated earlier, I believe you and I have had some problem with language, or at least my understanding of your English!

So, I ask you do you agree or disagree with the words in English as quoted above?

A friendly Islamists is always a friend of mine! But, radicalism, as expressed in the quotation, does not only scare me, but it makes me despise anyone who could believe it!

To quote a famous saying; "If you are a friend of my friend then you are my friend, and if you are an enemy of my friend then you are also my enemy!" Or at least words to that effect!

So, I ask, "Are you my friend?" (America is included!)

Regards,
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2010 at 23:44
That site is anti-Islam, as stated in it's title. Therefore it isn't objective, something everybody can see (CLEARLY) in that quote you gave in your reply above. So I do not support the words in the quote. Also to have something clear, I'm more Kurd than I'm Muslim. That should explain whether I'm friendly or hostile "Islamist"...
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2010 at 07:31
Thanks, my friend, for your reply!

One can only hope for a good (hopefully peaceful) solution to your problems!

Good luck, and my Regards,
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