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Ancient Celts in Oceania?

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Celts in Oceania?
    Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 06:03
For this thread: Statue Menhirs, Prehistoric Western Europe I was researching about the Celtic God Taranis that I found this interesting article: http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Koru%20PA2.htm
 
 

In the picture to the upper left is shown a statuette, found in France, which depicts the ancient god Taranis and his identifying elements. These are:

  1. The bolt of lightening that he holds in his right hand.
  2. His bag and double spiral ringlets (enhanced in yellow for clarity). The spiral, in the Maori language, is called a Koru, hence the name Koru PA, where the river spirals around the defensive enclosure peninsula.
  3. The thunder wheel.

In the picture to the lower left is shown a "cross", known as the "Cross of Taranis" (Croix de Taranis). In pre-Christian France (Gaul) the spoked "thunder wheel" of Taranis was often represented as a "cross".

In the picture to the right is shown Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum, Noel Hilliam, holding an ancient totem (Nui pole), which was retrieved from wetlands in the north of New Zealand. The totem has, carved into it, all of the elements associated with Taranis, the Thunderer. These are:

  1. The spiral lightening bolt of Taranis carved very precisely to original and authentic form.
  2. The double spiral ringlets of Taranis, which are depicted as a large spiral reducing to a small spiral (Koru).
  3. The "Cross" of Taranis, which represented the "thunder wheel". This is again shown at the bottom of the totem (3B).

The Celtic/ ancient Gaulish tribes, Turones, Turoni, Taurini, venerated the deity Taranucus/ Taranaich, which is not a tremendous departure from saying that the Turehu of ancient New Zealand (described as Europeans) lived in the foothills of Mt, Taranaki.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 06:12
There is also something similar to those mouthless Celtic Statue Menhirs in Oceania:
 
 
In Aboriginal mythology, the Wondjina (or Wandjina) were cloud and rain spirits who, during the Dream time, created or influenced the landscape and its inhabitants.
 
Common composition is with large upper bodies and heads that show eyes and nose, but typically no mouth. Two explanations have been given for this: they are so powerful they do not require speech[5] and if they had mouths, the rain would never cease.
 
 
Our Strange World!!
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2011 at 21:56
I see only superficial similarities: many primitive societies used crosses as sacred symbols (due to their resemblence to certain stars in the sky) while the swirling pattern on the totem pole could represent the waves of the ocean or the power of a hurricane
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2011 at 17:49
"And so it goes!" A quote from an old TV show. What is superficial to one person seems like a bolt of lightning to another.

The correct view?, let us wait an see?

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2014 at 04:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is also something similar to those mouthless Celtic Statue Menhirs in Oceania:


 

In [COLOR=#5a3696">Aboriginal mythology[/COLOR">, the Wondjina (or Wandjina) were [COLOR=#002bb8">cloud[/COLOR"> and [COLOR=#002bb8">rain[/COLOR"> spirits who, during the [COLOR=#002bb8">Dream time[/COLOR">, created or influenced the landscape and its inhabitants.

 

Common composition is with large upper bodies and heads that show eyes and nose, but typically no mouth. Two explanations have been given for this: they are so powerful they do not require speech<SUP =reference id=cite_ref-4>[COLOR=#5a3696"><SPAN">[</SPAN">5<SPAN">"></SPAN">[/COLOR"> and if they had mouths, the rain would never cease.

 


 

Our Strange World!!


They're not Celtic. No one knows for sure precisely who carved the stone heads.
The picture of the heads looks remarkably like Australian Aboriginal rock drawings. And they weren't Celtic either!
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 11:56
'Lords of the Soil' by KR Bolton, Renaissance press/Realist publications, has some info on Celtic and other NZ visitors evidences.

Atlantis was South America/Tiahuanaco so Oceania has alot of origins via there.

the Turehu could be connected with : turvasu [or druhayu] (in Indian)? tule/tulan (Toltec)? tuleyone? etruscan/tyrrhenian? tuareg? tyre/tylos? turanian? turukum (ancient Mesopotamia tribe)?


partial composed NZ timeline
TOBA/tobs/bopa explosion 70,000ya/50,000yrs before (?)
"26500bp" Taupo eruption [6500/2650/2600/2500 bp/bc?]
"2225bc" transit Venus
666bc Phoenician
300bc Waitaha shell mounds
239/232bc Rata/Maui, eclipse
(212bc Eratosthenes)
160bc kiore rat
(58/55 bc Nephite Hagoth)
2000yo ponape pottery thermoluminescence date?
(1st Cent CE/time-of-Jesus Wakea)
50-150ce kiore rat
151ad Ptolemy map Bona Fortuna? [ponape?]
181/186ad Taupo eruption
232ad Taupo eruption
krakatoa 416 (javanese book of kings) [~raka?];
Ilopango/tbj eruption 450+-30y/408-535/536;
"pago 530+/-150y"?
"krakatoa"
rabaul 540+/-100y;
(650 Hui-te-Rangiora)
760-80 Borobudur
850ad Maku
(Nuku-tawhiti)
(945 Raka-taura) [~ rata/eratosthenes?]
950ad Kupe
1000 ad/900 yo ponape fire pit ashes carbon date?
1150ad Toi
12th cent Chinese/Norse maps Australia(&NZ)
12th cent Tamil bell
1280ce kiore rat
1350/14thcent ad Great Fleet
1450 battle of 5 forts
1450 Taranaki inscription
1480 Túpac Inca Yupanqui (9mo,2isls)?
1522/1520s Portugese Cristovao de Mendonca mahogany boat/ship
1526 Francisco de Hoces
1576 Spanish Juan Fernandez helmet
(1606 Janszoon)
1642 Dutch Abel Tasman


(AE is much better than Historum. What a awful time i had from people there when i tried posting there!)
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 17:30
"(AE is much better than Historum. What a awful time I had from people there when I tried posting there!) "

That is a true statement! Some of those guys are amazingly smart, and mostly "smart asses!" LOL Suffice it to say, I did not last long there! But I did have some lively discourses! Smile

Ron

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 18:38
I'd be highly suspicious of any suggestion of a connection between the Celts and Oceania. There simply is no credible evidence of any such connection.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 21:16
Originally posted by opuslola

"(AE is much better than Historum. What a awful time I had from people there when I tried posting there!) "

That is a true statement! Some of those guys are amazingly smart, and mostly "smart asses!" LOL Suffice it to say, I did not last long there! But I did have some lively discourses! Smile

Ron



It was not because they are smart but because they are arrogant. I did not see many smart people there in my arguments anyway. Anyway sorry for offtopic but had to clarify its not because smart.
"love edifies knowledge puffs up."

ps toyomotor: It may be right that there is not any much connection of Celts with Oceania, but how many times i have heard it said there is "no credible evidence" of such and such or so and so and it has really been the contrary. Celts had huge seaworthy ships in time of [Caesar] and London was a port with hundreds of ships. Brendan visited # of Atlantic islands, other voyagers like O'Corra, Maeldune, Madoc, Barinthus.

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 26-Jan-2014 at 21:22
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 22:02
Was there not an ancient tin mine discovered in Queensland Australia a number of years back?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 00:44
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Originally posted by opuslola

"(AE is much better than Historum. What a awful time I had from people there when I tried posting there!) "
That is a true statement! Some of those guys are amazingly smart, and mostly "smart asses!" LOL Suffice it to say, I did not last long there! But I did have some lively discourses! Smile

Ron


It was not because they are smart but because they are arrogant. I did not see many smart people there in my arguments anyway. Anyway sorry for offtopic but had to clarify its not because smart.
"love edifies knowledge puffs up."

ps toyomotor: It may be right that there is not any much connection of Celts with Oceania, but how many times i have heard it said there is "no credible evidence" of such and such or so and so and it has really been the contrary. Celts had huge seaworthy ships in time of [Caesar] and London was a port with hundreds of ships. Brendan visited # of Atlantic islands, other voyagers like O'Corra, Maeldune, Madoc, Barinthus.


It IS right, not maybe!! If you have evidence to the contrary, I stress EVIDENCE, not supposition, please provide it.

This type of speculation really is laughable.
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 00:51
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Was there not an ancient tin mine discovered in Queensland Australia a number of years back?


"Traces of ancient mining activity shows they found good quantities of tin in island Southeast Asia. There is also evidence that they mined tin, copper and gold in West Irian and also the North-West Kimberley region of Western Australia, which would come to be known as ‘Arali’, meaning “basement” of the earth, the ‘Underworld’, and “place of the shining lodes” in reference to the great amount of silver mined there. It also became known as “the land from which the metal ores come”.

from http://www.rexgilroy.com/uru_chapter16.html

Is this what you're referring to?

I don't think it's worthy of further comment.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 01:38
toyomotor (from historum?)
what evidence do you have that there is not celtic connetions with oceania?
why do i always have to prove every jot and tiddle. i don;t mind providing evidences when i am able but it is not always possible to. If i can't post on forums without having to prove everything then i won't. I always/usually try to provide what evidences i can. I haven't done enough research on this to do it for this, but at the same time i can say that it is right to say "maybe" possible either way. Though i meant/said that what you said maybe/probably right.
The problem i had with historum is not evidence but the "laughable" type personal attacks/discrediting.
I really can't be bothered, i only post on forums because i'm in Hell situation and need a casual interest. Whenever i have gone to the effort to get and write proofs of things it is then just ignored anyway (eg the coricancha picture of atlantis i posted on historum America thread).

celts had towering high-sea-faring ships in time of [julius caesar?], london was a port with hundereds of ships.
brendan, maeldune, o'corra, barinthus, madoc.
"polynesian water bailer of same design as the Norwegian"
Maori dwellings similar to northern long houses.
tikis similar to odin?
uru-kehu "red haired"
(tocharians have celtic connections)
bones found in NZ that don't have Maori "rocker jaw" (though rocker jaw also found in scandinavia?)
viking helmet found at port moresby australia.
chinese maps of australia (incl nz) , chinese say they got it from norse/vikings.
Icelandic references to 'solar perusta' could be australia in opinion of some (though i think it could be Peru?)
Captain Cook wrote of Polynesians resembling northern europeans.
celts & maoris have cult of the head.
plaid/tratan found in NZ/Maori similar to celtic/tocharian plaid/tartan (though one in Maori story sounds abit like Joseph's coat of many colours).
(Hoeh's connections of picts and americans and thracians?)
megaliths.
similar spirals/knotwork

Probably it is true that not any/much celtic connections, but is rather ancient connections, but you can't just say it is definitely none.
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 01:44
ARTHUR-ROBIN: The problem is that some people post utter rubbish which, if it is not challenged, could possibly lead readers to believe that the content is true. My point is that you have posted what appears to be drivel, but if there is scientific proof of what you say, can you provide it? If it is only a theory on your part, please say so.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 05:15

i take offense at being said to have posted "laughable" "drivel" "speculation" etc. anyone who has seen my postings on this and other forums over the years if they were honest would not say that. i have always tried to post quality posts unlike many other people. My posts are no more theory than any others here. Many things i post are positive theses while others like this topic i am not certain of so you can call it theory (not drivel) if you wish. (I would point out that many of the orthodox things held today are not scientifically proven and they don't admit it is only theory.) It is not just theory to say that we can only say "maybe" and that we can't say that it is definitely right that there is no possible connections or evidence at all. Sorry for any wrong offense, i'm very peeved at "life"/humanity after a life of mistreatment. It seems like i am always being challenged everytime i post on forums now. I don't think i have even stated a solid "theory" here even, I never said there were or weren't any celt connections. It is all very well challenging or asking what evidence, but not being called laughable, drivel, etc. I just replied to you that we can't be certain that there is no evidence of celtic connections but that it maybe true that there is or isn't any. There is no scientific proof that there weren't any celtic contacts either. Isn't the purpose of forums to objectively consider or look for possible evidence both ways (without being driven away by people)?

So here is what you want: I don't have any positive proof (or even theory) there is or isn't any celtic connections with preMaori NZ, there is just some possible evidences that there could be. The facts on celts i posted about ships etc are historical facts. The similarities between some celt or northern things are real though they may only be seemingly and they may not be due to celt connections.
The Turehu could be Turvasu/Druhayu was just a possibility.
The timeline was compiled from various sources, I can't prove all the dates/voyagers but some of the entries seem to fit with each other and with other historical things.
It is positive fact that there were pre-Maori NZ visitors if not Celtic.
(It is also positive proven thesis that Atlantis is Tiahuanaco/South America and that Polynesia has origins via there, though i can't prove all the Polynesian part without alot of work.)
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 09:46
Easeup some Toyomotor.  You can request proof or evidence without seeming to attack.  I for one tend to lean toward AR's theories on the location of Atlantis.  I've seen photos of sites in Au. and NZ that would lend credence to the idea that someone was there before recorded history. 
 
That you don't agree with him doesn't make it "drivel".  At the same time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Give AR the time and I think he could provide some.
 
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2014 at 19:56
Originally posted by red clay

Easeup some Toyomotor.  You can request proof or evidence without seeming to attack.  I for one tend to lean toward AR's theories on the location of Atlantis.  I've seen photos of sites in Au. and NZ that would lend credence to the idea that someone was there before recorded history. 
 

That you don't agree with him doesn't make it "drivel".  At the same time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Give AR the time and I think he could provide some.

 


OK, but can we have some sort of substantiation on some of these claims, or at least a disclaimer that it is the thoughts of the writer, and for debate.

PS. I did say "appears to be drivel"-there's a big difference.

Edited by toyomotor - 28-Jan-2014 at 02:08
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 01:58
Originally posted by red clay

Easeup some Toyomotor.  You can request proof or evidence without seeming to attack.  I for one tend to lean toward AR's theories on the location of Atlantis.  I've seen photos of sites in Au. and NZ that would lend credence to the idea that someone was there before recorded history. 
 

That you don't agree with him doesn't make it "drivel".  At the same time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Give AR the time and I think he could provide some.

 

_______________________________________________________________________
For my education, can you elaborate on the basis for this forum? It was my belief that the forum was a place for discussion of members views on topics of mutual interest, and where sensible debate could take place.

There are members who simply "report" matters that they've found on the internet, with no comment of their own, and there is little if any room for debate or even further comment.

With respect, I must agree with Opuslolas comment about members posting what are in effect, self serving posts to gain promotion points. This does not seem fair to me.

I believe by posting this in the forum, (rather than a PM) other members can also learn what is expected. This is not to be seen as an attack on you or any particular member, simply a requestion for clarification.

Regards

Ian
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 02:13
Originally posted by toyomotor

[QUOTE=red clay] Easeup some Toyomotor.  You can request proof or evidence without seeming to attack.  I for one tend to lean toward AR's theories on the location of Atlantis.  I've seen photos of sites in Au. and NZ that would lend credence to the idea that someone was there before recorded history. 
 

That you don't agree with him doesn't make it "drivel".  At the same time, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Give AR the time and I think he could provide some.

 

_______________________________________________________________________
For my education, can you elaborate on the basis for this forum? It was my belief that the forum was a place for discussion of members views on topics of mutual interest, and where sensible debate could take place.

There are members who simply "report" matters that they've found on the internet, with no comment of their own, and there is little if any room for debate or even further comment.

With respect, I must agree with Opuslolas comment about members posting what are in effect, self serving posts to gain promotion points. This does not seem fair to me.

I believe by posting this in the forum, (rather than a PM) other members can also learn what is expected. This is not to be seen as an attack on you or any particular member, simply a requestion for clarification.

forum
/ˈfɔːrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora

1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.


Regards

Ian
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 02:20
Thank-you Red Clay. Sorry for any wrong on my part.

I think i have already answered in the last post tm that i guess we can say it is only thoughts (and some possible evidences) for debate that there may or may not be Celtic pre-Maori connections (and i do not have any (Celt) claim/theory). I (& you) can't substantiate it either way, I have tried to list some possible evidences, if i can get together anymore i will post but it takes alot of time/effort.

For non-Celtic preMaori that is definite not just thoughts/theory/claims. Eg look up Kaimanawa "wall/pyramid", Waipua stone pyramids/walls/alignments (Noel Hilliam?), Turehu (Mataroa/Mataora & Nuvarahu/Niwareka), Patupaiarehu, Waitaha (Barry Brailsford), Taranaki inscription (Barry Fell), Awamoko skulls, urukehu "red haired", starwalkers/spiritwalkers, etc etc. Linus Brunner's work on Malayo-Polynesian language roots & Indoeruopean/Semitic. Ptolemy 6th coin found in Bay of Islands. Elsdon Best books. I have also versions of Tower of Babel in about 5 different Polynesia myths.
Sorry its abit haphazard and not detailed.

re last post that appeared during my writing: I do my best to post best standards/expectations i can but if forum people are going to be so tough/harsh expectations (on some of us not on others) like Historum than some of us will have to leave.
Re popularity points i can't deny that i may sometimes post things because i would like to be recognised for my discoveries but it is not like i am selling books etc like others. I don't think i am self-serving, i often try to provide people interesting info that may be of interest to them. I had thought that a forum is where people can present ideas/theses and discuss civilly? I never meant to imply that things aren't open to debate or that i not interested in learning. I just don't like everything always being negatives, personal/impolite/attacking -like and (as happened on historum) people diverting away from actual details to long words about sources and method etc (and on historum they claimed i didn't post any evidences and that others did, when it was actually the reverse). "Its not what we say but how" (wording). "Speak the truth in love". Probably just digging a deeper hole, sorry.


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Jan-2014 at 02:40
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