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Avestan Directions
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ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Avestan Directions
    Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:09
Indus Saraswati Civilization was purely Indian , I mean to say Hindu.
They had fire altars and paid oblations to God through fire which Hindus still does in India.
Archaeologists had found several fire altars at Kalibangan which dates back to 2900BC..and at Lothal & Surkotada dating back to 2300BC.They worshipped nature,five elements and fertility which is still followed by majority of Hindus of India
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:13
Purva in sanskrit means east.It doesnot mean forward.

but it has an alternate meaning 'past'.

eg:-'purva charithra' in sanskrit means 'past history'
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:55
No one can deny that Sanskrit was an Indo-European language, it can be true that Indians have preserved their ancient culture but about the language, it could be introduced to India some thousands years later, like English in the recent centuries, so it seems very possible that aboriginal people of India spoke a non-Indo-European language, like a Dravidian language.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 20:37
By saying genetic study I meant studies conduvted on the cranium sizes of the fossils from Indus-Saraswati sites.They show uniformity throughout for several ,milleniums say from 7000BC to 600BC.That is indicating homogenity of Civilization.
Different races of ethnic groups have different cranium structure and sizes so any invasion or large scale migration and offsprings generated after such events will have different cranium sizes and structure which is not found anywhere in Indus-saraswati valley.
For furthar referance on any topics you can visit the site 'www.omilosmeleton.gr/ ' which is the site of a non-gazetted organization chaired by famous indologist & sanskritist Dr.Nicholas Kazanas.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 20:52
Astronomical referances in 'Thaithiriya Brahmana' is indicating equinoxes that took place near about 8000BC.And many astronomical referances in Rigveda speaks about equinoxes and stellar positions of about 4300BC.
These stellar positions was observed by the composers with naked eye.
Because back calculation and refering such incidents is impossible.The astronomical constants used by astronomers and mathematicians of ancient India like Apasthanba(900BC) ,Pingala(700BC) were differing from our present day values at their 4th &5th decimal places.so if back calculated this decimal difference will leave a difference of 5 to 15 degree difference in the positions of various planets and stellar constallations.Apart from that the positions of moon is impossible to back calculateeven todayso would have been the same earlire too.A difference of 5 to 15 degreein position calculation will leave an error 600-1200years in the dates being back calculated.But the astronomical referances of Rigveda and other books are very accurate & this proves that it was observed by the composers of these works with their naked eyes.these vedas,Brahmanams,Upanishads,samhitas,Sroutasutras,Gruhyasutras etc were preserved through oral tradition for milleniums and written down in present form much later.
The use of planetaurium soft ware had helpedin finding out the correctdates of the astronomical referances in most of these books.Prof.Narahari Achar an astrophysist and faculty of Memphis University had found out the correct dates of mahabharatha war and many other such events using the Planetaurium soft ware. 
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:02
Aboriginal people of India..? you mean to say adivasis..? Munda and other clans.They are mainly distributed in East and south east.
The genetical study conducted in Indus-saraswati  valley including mehrgarh has not produced any proofs(munda or negritto skulls) hinting the presence of any aborigines there.
The Indus-Saraswati civilization spanned over a large area from Baluchistan to Krishna-Godavari basins of Andhra South India and it covered millions of sqare miles.
So the skin colour of inhabitants would have varied according to the climatic conditions they were exposed to but not skull structure and genetics.There was uniformity in material culture too.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:10
Look I was speaking about the presence of sanskrit in Indus-Saraswati valley from very early times It never came to India.Proofs say that it originated here.Like I earlier said about hydronomy ie rivernames.
 All the rivernames in Indus-Saraswati valley are in Sanskrit showing a very early presence. unlike other parts of the world.The so called invading aryans doesnt have a prehistory beyond 3000BC.But sanskrit and Indus valley had.
There is no proof for presence of an aboriginal culture in Indus-saraswati valley and the  proofs for the rigvedic fire rituals at various site dating beyond 3000BC are available and river names eg:- Sarayu,Sarsuti,Sindhu,Sutudri,saraswati are all sanskrit.
If at all the so called old inhabitants were speaking aboriginal languages then atleast some of the rivers will be having aboriginal river names similar to the river names in USA which I earlier pointed out.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:41
ranjithvnambiar, what do you want to say? Do you think all Indo-European languages originated in India? or do you think Sanskrit didn't relate to other Indo-European languages?
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:45
Purba is 'Prakrit'..In prakrit a different dialect of sanskrit.
Arabia was believed to be called as Arbasthan in prakrit in sanskrit it will be 'Arvasthan'  . 'Arva' or 'Aswa' in Sanskrit means Horse.Arvasthan means Place of Horses.
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:58
"Indus Saraswati Civilization" is a word made by indian nationalistic people, you are one of them who think aryans are native to india
 
The real civilization is "indus Valley civilization"
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:07
The Chronology of Indo European migration as per the hypothesis is

2250 BC        Achaeans come to Greece

2100 BC        Hittites and Luwians settle in East Asia Minor

2100 BC        Celtic tribes in Europe

2000 BC        Italic tribes come to Italy

2000 BC        Doric Greek tribes settle in Illyria

1900 BC        Mycenae founded by Achaeans in Greece

1750 BC - 1250 BC        Ancient Hittite (Nesian) texts from Asia Minor

1700 BC        Aryans came to North India and destroyed Mohenjo-Daro 

1700 BC - 1350 BC        Aryans as one of the nations of Mitanni Empire

1600 BC        The Old Hittite Kingdom founded.

I meant to say that there was presence of sanskrit in Indus valley before this period.

Proofs indicate that North West India is the Indo-Aryan Urheimat and so say about sanskrit too.

For referance you can visit 'Omilos meleton' website earlier mentioned by me earlier.


And why do you think that India cannot be the 'Original Urheimat' of Aryans as well as Indo-aryan languages..?

Apart from this the Proto-Indo european language older than sanskrit too is now identified in India
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:20
For your information Dr.Nicholas Kazanas is A Greek,Michel Danino is French & Koenraad Elst is Dutch who proposed such a name to this civilization.And nearly 50% of the archaeologists who work on these sites are 'Non-Indian'..Will you call them too "Indian nationalists"..?
Apart from this more than 75% of the Archaeological site  are on the banks of gaggar-Hakhra river on the western side of present day Rajasthan & Punjab and on the Eastern borders of Pakisthan.
TheThe satellite photography and corresponding studies had prooved this to be the Rigvedic Sarawati River and so the name indus-Saraswati.
The New archaeological sites like ,Kalibangan,Dholavira,Rakhigarhi,Ganheriwala,Surkotasda and all sites of rann of Kutch are on the banks of saraswati and hence the name Indus-saraswati Civilization.
I am interested in a logical reasoning based debate and not name calling like what you have started "indian nationalist" next will be "Hindu Fundamental" and so on.I dont like indulging indulging in mudslinging and thus wasting time in a nonproductive way
If you are lacking proof please dont start mudslinging and name calling like the Aryan Invasion Theorists Prof.Michael Witzel and others.
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:48
@ balochi knight
Apart from that what difference will that make if you call Indus valley civilization as Indus -Saraswathi valley.Both are rigvedic rivers Indus is Sindhu & Saraswathi  saraswathi itself..
This naming is taking into consideration the number of sites on the banks of saraswati.

And are Indians not supposed to debate or speak for what is a fact..? and what they believe...?
Whatever i am claiming has proofs to support and I am refering the names of those who proposed it..
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Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2010 at 09:27
^ the only proof you are putting is through nationalistic hindu sources, no international sources have confirmed any of it, Until that happens no sane person would believe any of it
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2010 at 20:38
Dear brother balochi,

You can close your eyes and refrain from seeing things but not blindfold the whole universe.Without even bothering to check the sources, you have branded them to be nationalistic sources.The below mentioned site is of a Greek Indologist & Linguist Dr.Nicholas Kazanas who taught Aryan Invasion Theory first & then Aryan Migration Theory.
Afterwards he came to India and Pakistan and then carried out a research on his own and came to his own conclusion & then started opposing AIT/AMT.In his paper he had even mentioned the discriminatory approach made by the faculty of JIES against the opposers of mainstream model.
The site is "www.omilosmeleton.gr/"

The site is in greek& there is an english version also available.You have to go to the site open the english version and then go to Indology.And there are a number of research papers he had produced and some had even be published in JIES ie Journal for Indo European studies.Each and every research conducted by him and others were done with scientific tools and widely accepted methodologies.

Now whether to go through it or not is your decision and bluntly denying the proofs saying that "you are a nationalist" looks senseless to me.
Again 'what to believe' and 'what not to' is purely ones decision but facts will be different
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Posts: 326 		  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 03:35
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

And why do you think that India cannot be the 'Original Urheimat' of Aryans as well as Indo-aryan languages..?

 
Because the older Sanskrit sources (like Rigveda) says that Aryans came from different places
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 01:42
Can you specify the verses of Rigveda which speaks about "aryans coming from different places" and  can you be more specific about the places that you are mentioning..?
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 01:53
@Kanas_Krumesis
"Because the older Sanskrit sources (like Rigveda) says that Aryans came from different places"
  
There are total of 10 Mandalas in rigveda consisting of 1028 Hymns and 10552 verses.


Can you be more specific about "The Mandala".. "The Hymn" and "The Verse" which is speaking about the "Aryans coming from Different places" and the places where they came from
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 02:45
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No one can deny that Sanskrit was an Indo-European language, it can be true that Indians have preserved their ancient culture but about the language, it could be introduced to India some thousands years later, like English in the recent centuries, so it seems very possible that aboriginal people of India spoke a non-Indo-European language, like a Dravidian language.

I too am not denying that Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.In fact I am saying that it is one of the oldest Indo-European language which is the "most" nearest language to Proto-Indo -European language.
You mean to say that Indians had an ancient culture and then learnt a new language after some thousand years from some invaders/migrants..? isnt it.?

Ya it is true that we have partly preserved our ancient culture and we still perform Vedic rites like 'Agnicayana',Agnishtoma' etc which were performed by Harappan people.
About the language you mean to say that it came later..? 
All the literary works related to Vedas were written in older version or vedic sanskrit.
 A whole lot of 17000+ versions and interpretations of Vedas and associated teachings were available even during 200BC.I think it will take centuries and even milleniums to do such awork.

Patanjali who lived in 2nd century BC has mentioned in his mahabhasya that Rigveda has 21 shakhas( or branches ), Yajur has 101 shakhas  , Sama has 1000 shakhas and Atharva has 9 shakhas.Totaling around 1131 shakas or branches.Each shakha has its own Samhita,Brahmanam,Aaranyakam,Upanishad apart from this Sroutha sutra,Gruhya sutra,Dharmasutra,Praathisakhyam,Niruktam likewise 13 granthas(or collection of manuscripts). That will give us a 17500 +/- Granthas in 200BC.It says these 17500 granthas are dating backward only.
Apart from this it is well known to historians that the vedic Sanskrit came to an end by 600BC and gave way to classical Sanskrit .And during 400BC panini gave a proper grammaticall form for the classical Sanskrit.
So thse granthas were compiled much before 600BC.
Do you mean to say that some 10000 or 15000  illiterate barbaric horse riding Aryans invaded/migrated to indus valley and taught sanskrit approximately 20million Idus-saraswati people and then sat down and wrote all these books...?
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Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 02:58
Apart from this as I earlier told all the river names and place names of the Indus & saraswati valley are in sanskrit.Not even a single river or place has got Dravidian or non-indo european name indicating the presence of sanskrit from a very early period.
Where as Greece has many place and river names which are pre-hellenic(pelasgian) and Europe has many place & river names that are pre-celtic indicating the presence of  a non-indo-european culture/civilization there.This is attested by archaeologists and even linguists.
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