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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: English and other Indo-European languages
    Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 01:36
These are some personal pronouns in English and some other Indo-European languages:
 
English Avestan Greek Latin Persian Armenian Hindi German Irish Polish
You Yuzh Esi Tu To Du Tu Du Tu Ty
He Hi Avtos Is Ou Na Vaha Er Se On
We Vae Emeis Nos Ma Menk Ham Wir Muid My
 
Which one do you think to be more similar to English?
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 04:40
To German, because you just show the odern languages of English and german! E.g. the old english is Thou, it is the same with old low German as far as I remember. It is the same with he and we. But you can also take a look to Scandinavia.
Sorry Cyrus, but this is very rediculous. Please try to keep AE standards as high as possible, otherwise you can change this into a fairy tales forum
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 09:48
English is considered as a Germanic language and it is an obvious fact that it is very similar to German but it can't be a reason that we ignore the similarities between this language and other Indo-European languages, for example about the names of animals like Bird, Dog, Sheep, Pig, ... can you find any similar words in the Germanic languages, whenas almost the same words exist in the Avestan language? 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 13:23
http://ecclesia.org/truth/thou.html

http://alt-usage-english.org/pronoun_paradigms.html

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1393/what-do-thou-thee-and-thine-mean-and-why-dont-we-use-them-anymore

http://german.about.com/od/grammar/a/Siedu.htm

Hope some of the above helps?
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 08:21

Let throw in some  Dutch :

English-Dutch

You            Jij  

He             Hij

We            Wij

The Dutch  J-  is the English y ( as in you, yes etc )

The  Dutch  -ij   looks strange but sounds precisely like  the -ei -  in Italian  ( vorrei, sei ) . The –ae  as in  maestro and German -ei- ( Zeit etc) come close.

Standard variants on Jij and Wij  are Je and We (  the -e- pronounced as  the e  in English the.

English ( before French influence )was closest to Old Dutch and Frisian.
 
The listed pronouns show remarkable similarities in these 3 IE languages : 
 

English                      Dutch                 Avestan

You                         Jij/ Je                Yuzh                

 He                          Hij                     Hi

We                          Wij/We               Wae

Ofcourse, The English and Dutch forms here are modern  while Avestan is ancient
 
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Edited by Sander - 19-Jan-2010 at 08:37
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 09:11
One interesting thing about the Dutch language is the "gh" sound, there are a few words in Persian langauge which begin with the letter "gh", most of them are similar to the Dutch one:
 
Persian English Dutch
Ghaz   Goose   Gans
Ghorolond   Grumble   Grommelen
Gheriv   Clamor   Geroep
Ghezh   Whiz   Gesuis
Ghel   Roll   Gerol
Ghak   Fool/Queer   Gek
Ghelghelak Clown  Happy (rolling and laughing)   Gelukkig 
Ghelak   Laugh   Gelach
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 12:40
Cyrus, if I can make a small point?

You wrote;

"Ghezh   Whiz   Gesuis"

Maybe I am seeing things, but here in the USA, we actually would say "gee whiz!" To make a surprised exclamation! It looks suspiciously like I would pronounce, "G-hezh!", or even a possibility for "Ge-suis!"

In addition, it is thought that "gee whiz" is but a slang or sneeky way to say "Jesus", like "Jeeze!", etc., and that made me think. It made me think that "Ge-suis", in your list, sounds very similar to some French words, especially "Je suis!", and "Je suis", means something very Biblical, that is it means "I AM!"

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Edited by opuslola - 19-Jan-2010 at 13:22
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  Quote mercurybc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2010 at 02:49

Some Persian Words Common With Other Indo-European Languages (Cognate Words) :
These are my own compilations from various sources or my own research, and still I am adding to them :


KISS , persian : boosse , spanish : beso , french : baiser , italian : bacio , lithuanian : bucinys / THUNDER , persian : tondar , german : donner / KNEE , persian : zanu , hindi : janu , french : genou / BREAST or CHEST , persian : sineh , italian : seno , french : sein / CRY , persian : geryeh , swedish : grata , french : cri , german : schrei / SHAME , persian : sharm , german : scham , swedish : scam  / RAIN ,  persian : baran / THROAT , persian : galoo , italian : gola , hindi : gela , slovenian : grlo , polish : gardlo , croatian : grlo / BALD , persian : kal , italian : calvo , german : kahl , dutch : kaal , catalan : calb , finnish : kalju , spanish : calvo / CORPSE , persian : lasheh , german : leiche , hindi : lash / ON FOOT , persian : piadeh , french : a pied , italian : a piedi / ENOUGH , persian : bass , italian & spanish : basta / GOOSE , persian : ghaaz , danish : gas , swedish : gas , spanish : ganso , slovenian : gos / LICK , persian : liss , polish : lizac , slovenian : lizati / MORGUE , persian : marg = death / DEAD , persian : mordeh , french : mort , italian : morto / JACKAL , persian : shaghal , finnish : sakaali , french : chacal , italian : sciacallo , swedish : schakal / THAT , persian : ke , french : que , italian : che , hindi : ki / WHO , persian : ki , french : qui , italian : che / WHAT , persian : che or che chizi , italian : che cosa / MOTHER , persian : madar , italian : madre , spanish : madre , dutch : moeder , french : mere , swedish : mor , slovenian : mati   / another old word for MOTHER , persian : maam , welsh : mam , english : mom or mum / FATHER , persian : pedar , italian : padre , german : vater , dutch : vader / DAUGHTER , persian : dokhtar , german : tochter , dutch : dochter , danish : datter / SISTER , persian : khahar (but written khwahar) and in rural persian pronounced khwaer , welsh : chwaer (literally pronounced khwaer)  / TOOTH , persian : dandan , italian : dente , french : dent , lithuanian : dantis / TWO , persian : do , spanish : dos , italian : duo , lithuanian : du , hindi : do , french : deux / FOUR , Persian : chahar , irish : ceathair (pronounced ka-hir)  / FIVE , persian : panj , hindi : panch , greek : penta / SIX , persian : shish or shesh , irish :  sé (pronounced shay) / EIGHT , persian : hasht , german : acht , irish : ocht , hindi : aat / NINE , persian : noh , italian : nove , hindi : no , french : neuf , german : neun , irish : naoi , swedish: nio / SIXTY , persian : shast , russian : sheyst dee syaat , sanskrit : sasta  / NEW , persian : no , german : neu , italian : nuovo , hindi : neya , irish : nua , norvegian : nye , romanian : nou ,  russian : nawvee / NO , persian : nah , romanian : nu , lithuanian : ne / PONDER , persian : pendar , spanish : pensar , portuguese : pensar , italian : pensare ,  french : penser  / INTER , persian : andar , dutch : onder , german : unter / STAR , persian : setareh , dutch : ster , italian : stella , german : stern / IS , persian : ast , german : ist , french : est , spanish : es / BROTHER , persian : baradar , german : bruder / NOT or IS NOT , persian : nist , french : n'est ,  german : nicht / YOU or THOU , persian : to , italian : tu , slovenian : ti , german : du , hindi : to /  I , persian : man , finnish : minä  / NAME , persian : naam , german : name , hindi : naam , italian : nome , french : nom / MOUSE , persian : mush , italian : mouse (pronounced mu - ze) , dutch : muis , croatian : mish , russian : mysh / WATER , persian : aab , in rural persian : "o" , french : eau / CHIN , persian : chaaneh / DOOR , persian : dar , dutch : deur / YOUNG , persian : javan , italian : giovane , french : jeune / EARTH , persian : zamin or zemin ,  latvian : zeme , polish : ziemia , czech : země ,russian : zimliah / COW , persian : gav , sanskrit : go or gau / YOKE , persian : yough , german : joch / DEVIL , persian : div , italian : diavolo / STAND , persian : istadan , lithuanian : stendas , old english : standan / NAVEL , persian : naf , icelandic : nafla , estonian : naba , finnish : napa , german : nabel / NAVE , persian : nav , italian : navata , french : nef / LIP , persian : lab , spanish : labio , italian : labbro , portoguese : labio /  WOMAN , persian : zan , croatian : žena , czech : žena ,  slovak : žena / STATE , persian : ostan , polish : stan , croatian : stanje , icelandic : astand / STONE , irish : cloch , persian : clooch or clookh (of course doesn't mean stone , but means fist size pieces of hardened and dried mud on outdoors) / MIDDLE or AVERAGE , persian : myaan or myaangin , french : moyen or moyenne , english : mean / ANT , persian : moor , russian : moo raa vey , icelandic : maur , finnish : muurahainen , norwegian : maur , danish : myre , dutch : mier , bosnian : mrav  / TABLE , persian : miz , slovenian : miza , spanish : mesa , romanian : masă , bulgarian : masa , hindi : mez / SLIPPERY or  SMOOTH : persian : liz , french : lisse , portuguese : liso ,  italian : liscio ,  basque : deslizamientos , catalan : Lliscant , croatian : Kliženje /   NAIL , persian : nakhon , sanskrit : nakha , german : nagel / FEATHER , persian : par , russian : peró , czech : pèro , croatian : pèro /  SILVER , persian : sim , greek : asimi / BRANCH (of a tree) , persian : shakheh , sanskrit : shaakha , lithuanian : šaka , hindi : shaaka / FACE , persian : chehreh , middle english. : chere ,  old french : chiere , spanish : cara ..."cheer" in modern english also is from the same root, "be of good cheer," means, "put on a happy face."   / KEY , persian : cleed or keleed , french : clé , czech : klíč , greek : kleidi , spanish : clave / SAINT , avestan persian : espand , romanian : sfânt , sânt , spanish : santo / JUNGLE , persian : jangal , sanskrit : jangala (जंगल) which is referred to uncultivated land , hindi : jangal , german : dschungel , russian : džúngli / ORANGE , persian : nārang , sanskrit नारङ्ग (nāranga), meaning “orange tree" ,  spanish : naranja / NOW , persian : aknun , middle persian : nun , german : nun , latin : nunc , danish : nu , dutch : nu / FAIRY , persian  :  pari , armenian : p’eri
















Edited by mercurybc - 01-Jun-2010 at 18:01
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 14:32
Thanks for all of the above! I am still "Pondering" them!

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  Quote mercurybc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 04:40
Thanks Opuslola , If you google for "avesta cognates" or "Dictionary of most common avesta words" , strangely you will find that almost majority of the  avestan cognate  words  ONLY resemble to ENGLISH words , like these avestan words  : year (yare) ,arm (arema), you (yuzh), he (he) ,we (vae) ,fresh (frasha) , win (van) , ice (isi) , three (thri) and.....these similarities are mind boggling !...specially considering the distance between Iran and England

Edited by mercurybc - 04-Jun-2010 at 04:47
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:10
I don't think you can use modern German as a good comparison
 
HochDeutsch )Modern German) is pretty much a made up language as Germany is a made up state.
 
The Northern Half of Germany spoke (and really still speaks) a Niederdeustch (Low German) that is a Low saxon dialect that includes- NiederRheinsch (there is conflict wether it is low franconian or low saxon it is a mix of both), PlatteDeustch, Westphalen (my GG Grandparents dads mom side) area 6 on the map) and so on. Dutch is also a low saxon, My great grandparents spoke NiederRheinsch (area 15)  it is closer to old dutch, old english and the gelder dialect than Hochdeustch.
 
There is also low franconian, frankdeutsch and the Palantite-- etc, etc
 
Basically when the Prussians took over they wanted a unified language (The Prussian court spoke French by the way) Hochdeustch was made the official language under the kulturekampf (This was also done to appease Bavaria and make a Prussian Bavarain union more likley)
 

Dialects of Low German are widely spoken in the northeastern area of the Netherlands (Dutch Low Saxon) and are written there with Dutch orthography.

Variants of Low German were widely (and are still to a far lesser extent) spoken in most parts of Northern Germany, for instance in the states of Lower Saxony, North Rhine-Westphalia, Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Saxony-Anhalt and Brandenburg. Small portions of northern Hesse and northern Thuringia are traditionally Low Saxon speaking too. Historically, Low German was also spoken in formerly German parts of Poland as well as in East Prussia and the Baltic States of Estonia and Latvia. The language was also formerly spoken in the outer areas of what is now the city state of Berlin but in the course of urbanisation and national centralisation in that city the language vanished

File:Verbreitungsgebiet der heutigen niederdeutschen Mundarten.PNG


Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 04-Jun-2010 at 05:26
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:24
 Meuse-Rhine area, a large group of southeastern Low Franconian dialects, including areas in Belgium, the Netherlands and the German Northern Rhineland. The northwestern part of this triangle came under the influence of the Dutch standard language, especially since the founding of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815. The southeastern part became a part of the Kingdom of Prussia at the same time, and from then it was subject to High German language domination. At the dialectal level however, mutual understanding is still possible far beyond both sides of the national borders.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:32
The 15 dialect reflects what tribes were dominant in the area-- German tribal dialects survived until modern times. Franks and Saxons were both competing confederations of tribes not really tribes unto themselves (The map only shows the low saxon area)
 
For example Chatti (hessians ) were not Franks but were in  the Frank confederation. The Cherusi were in both at differnt times. While in thoery the Franks and Saxons were the lead tribes they were both a conglomerate of various tribes.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 12:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

One interesting thing about the Dutch language is the "gh" sound, there are a few words in Persian langauge which begin with the letter "gh", most of them are similar to the Dutch one:
 
Persian English Dutch
Ghaz   Goose   Gans
Ghorolond   Grumble   Grommelen
Gheriv   Clamor   Geroep
Ghezh   Whiz   Gesuis
Ghel   Roll   Gerol
Ghak   Fool/Queer   Gek
Ghelghelak Clown  Happy (rolling and laughing)   Gelukkig 
Ghelak   Laugh   Gelach
 
I wonder if that is were Geek comes from- it kind of means a fool in english slang.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 12:23
My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 13:23
Dutch title Generaal Luitenant-Generaal Generaal-Majoor Brigade-Generaal Kolonel Luitenant-Kolonel Majoor Kapitein Eerste-Luitenant Tweede-Luitenant Vaandrig
(cavalry/artillery) Ritmeester (Cavalry only) Kornet
English equivalent General Lieutenant General Major General Brigadier Colonel Lieutenant Colonel Major Captain Lieutenant Second Lieutenant Officer Cadet
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 02:03
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

I wonder if that is were Geek comes from- it kind of means a fool in english slang.
 
It seems the English word has the same origin, of course the Persian word doesn't actually means "fool", as you read the online translation of this word in the Persian Dictioanry website: Click Here -> "someone is short and to the height and the high fat and mutilate is ridiculous too", the better translation is "Ghak is someone who is short, and with this height is also fat, inefficient and ridiculous."
 
I should say that Ghak is too old and isn't actually used in the Modern Persian, we mostly use Dalghak (dull geek?) which means "clown, buffoon".
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 02:34
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian
You are right, it is even better to compare the oldest ones, I mean Germanic Gothic Language and Iranian Gathic Language. In fact Gathic, Old Avestan, is one of the oldest Indo-European languages.
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 13:08
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian
 
 
You made that error  before in this thead. Standard Dutch  is classified as  Low Franconian, not Low Saxon.  More specifically :
 
IE>Germanic >West-Germanic> Low Franconian>Old Frankish ( Salic Franks)>Old (west)Low Franconian(=Old Dutch) >Middle Dutch> Modern Dutch.
Only the regional  languages/dialects in the north-eastern part of the Netherlands are classified as Low Saxon.
To illustrate this :
Red colours : Low Franconian
Green : Low Saxon
BTW. Maximus Germanicus' own map ( a few postings back) shows the same classification ( as any good map does )
 


Edited by Sander - 05-Jun-2010 at 14:12
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:05
That make isn't super accurate. Dutch is a mixture of Low franconian and low saxon-- The Dutch were Saxon and Frisian (Conquered by the Franks) The oldest Dutch spoken was a low Saxon.
 
Ref 1
Dutch is a descendant of several Frankish dialects spoken in the High Middle Ages and Early Modern Times, and to a lesser extent of Frisian, that was spoken by the original inhabitants of Holland. It did not undergo the High German consonant shift (apart from the transition from /θ/ to /d/), and is a Low Franconian language. There was at one time a dialect continuum that blurred the boundary between Dutch and Low Saxon. In some small areas, there are still dialect continua, but they are gradually becoming extinct.
 

Dutch Low Saxon (Dutch Low Saxon: Nedersaksisch) is a group of Low Saxon (i.e., Low German) dialects spoken in the northeastern Netherlands (in comparison, the remainder of the Netherlands speak a collection of Low Franconian dialects). The class "Dutch Low Saxon" is not unanimous. From a diachronic point of view, the Dutch Low Saxon dialects are merely the Low Saxon dialects which are native to areas in the Netherlands (as opposed to areas in northern Germany or Denmark). From a strictly synchronic point of view, however, some linguists classify Dutch Low Saxon as a variety of Dutch.[1] Some Dutch Low Saxon dialects show features of Westphalian, a West Low German dialect spoken in Germany.

 
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