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Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
    Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:33
As I have said in some earlier post, the photos of mostly children seen at;http://www.flickr.com/photos/44738189@N08/ Would not seem out of place in either Scotland, Spain, Germany, Ireland, Nova Scotia, Georgia (USA), Texas, Kansas, etc.!

But, of course, there seems no doubt that the photographer(s) were looking for just such subjects!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote ideas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:37
opuslola,

you misunderstood what I said, while that be the case, what I tried to get across is that kurds are mixed, for example.. I myself am europen looking but with dark hair.. my unqle has blue eyes, while my auntie is blonde.. there are lots of genes in a typical kurdish family, and I can assure you atleast 40% of kurds are blonde with 70% being white.
 
am not trieng to prove anything, becuase this is marely colour of skin and it has not gained us any support from the western countries.
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2010 at 07:56
Selam bra Zert,

What makes this question hard to answer is the massive oppression and assimilation, the ethnic cleansing, of us Kurds in, generally speaking, all parts of Kurdistan.

But, in spite of their attempts to assimilate us Kurds into the major ethnic groups of our neighbours, 40 million (hard to find the accurate number, because of the suppresion) of us still retain our own customs and language, which consists of many groups (among some of the 50 biggest are Herkî, Zêbarî, Mizorî, Doskî, Sindî, Herwarî, Herwamî, Babanî, Jafî and Berzencî) who speak different, but a related language - the Kurdish language, which consists of 12 dialects of the northwestern subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch. (The language tree, nothing to do with todays "Iran" and "Iranians" - therefore we Kurds are differentiated by our language, our tribal affiliation, geographic regions, the treatment of the sexes - and our various religions - Sunni, Shi'a, Shi'ite Alevi, Sufi, Yazidi, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian +).

But let me cut to the case, brother, our history can be identified back to 1000 B.C. (by the ancient Assyrians - land of the Kurti) and 3000 B.C (by the ancient Sumerians - Karda, inhabitet by the Qurtiye), but the Kurds, as a people, have existed several millenias before that. The Kurds could date back to 6000 - 5800 B.C, with the Halaaf culture - who lived in the same area which Kurdistan lies today. A culture which was closely followed by the Ubid culture (which came from Mesopotamia) - lasted until 4300 B.C, when it got replaced by the Hurrian culture. The Hurrian culture (which had a language similar to modern Chechen - Caucasian) ruled the area known today as Kurdistan, until they too got replaced by the Medes in 600 B.C. In 6th century B.C. the Carduchians (near Lake Van) were historically documented - they were, from what I know, decenders of the Medes who worshipped a Hurrian God of the sky, Tishub - this showed the continuation of the Hurrian culture to this date. So while the Indo-Iranians have influenced our culture, the Kurdish culture, we still continue to hold on to our Hurrian customs and beliefs. Also the Mitani, Hattite and Kassite kingdoms asserted themselves into the Hurrian areas after 2000 B.C. (but just because the leaders of these cultures were Indo-Europeans, doesn't mean the population and people under their command was).

I would also add that even today, in the 21. Century, Turks, Persians and Arabs take us as a subgroup of themself, this being said - as long as this backwards mentality dominates, we as Kurds will not be able to do enough research on our past, history - and therefore nationalistic forumusers, like fx. "balabanpasa" (kemalist, if I'm correct ? sorry, if I'm incorrect), will write and spread lies about our (already) thin-documented past.

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  Quote Zert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 09:08
Alright, thank you all for your replies. Especially the above one has a lot of information.

Extra question, how can it then be explained that Kurds and Jews (Israelis) seem to be so closely related? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 13:31
Very extensive post but I must disagree on several points.

Originally posted by Azadi

Selam bra Zert,

What makes this question hard to answer is the massive oppression and assimilation, the ethnic cleansing, of us Kurds in, generally speaking, all parts of Kurdistan.


Other than in Turkey and Iraq, I dont believe there is any ethnic cleansing going on in Syria or Iran. I'm not too sure about Syria, I may be wrong, but I know for a fact that there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Iran. Iranians have always been more tolerant of the various groups when compared to their neighbors. This is because Iran has always been a diverse country and from the beginning this diversity was accepted.

With that said, the dictatorial theocratic regime in Tehran is oppressive, and oppresses all ethnic groups because it is a religious and not an ethnic based government. Remember, Khamenei is Azari, NOT Persia, and Mousavi, the unofficial leading figure of the Green Revolution is Azari, not Persian.

So the Iranian people in general are VERY tolerant, Persians get a bad rap because it is PERCEIVED that they are running the show, which is in fact incorrect. This is supported in that there are provinces in Iran with majority Persian populations that are actually POORER than provinces where minorities make the majority.

Originally posted by Azadi


But, in spite of their attempts to assimilate us Kurds into the major ethnic groups of our neighbours, 40 million (hard to find the accurate number, because of the suppresion) of us still retain our own customs and language, which consists of many groups (among some of the 50 biggest are Herkî, Zêbarî, Mizorî, Doskî, Sindî, Herwarî, Herwamî, Babanî, Jafî and Berzencî) who speak different, but a related language - the Kurdish language, which consists of 12 dialects of the northwestern subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch. (The language tree, nothing to do with todays "Iran" and "Iranians" - therefore we Kurds are differentiated by our language, our tribal affiliation, geographic regions, the treatment of the sexes - and our various religions - Sunni, Shi'a, Shi'ite Alevi, Sufi, Yazidi, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian +).


Again, I would like to point out that although the Iranian government is oppressive, it is more tolerant to ethnic groups within the country when compared to its neighbors. Kurdish culture and language are not under attack in Iran.

Also, I'm glad you pointed out that being "Iranian" (as in of the Aryan branch of Indo-Europeans), should not be confused with being of the Iranian nationality, which includes Arabs, Africans, Turkomans, etc...

Kurds are an Iranian peoples, like Persians, Balouchi's, Talyshi's, etc... but you'd be surprised at the amount of cultural similarities that exists between these different peoples. Linguistically the differences are greater (although the languages have the same roots and certain basic similarities) but culturally we share many major things.

Originally posted by Azadi


But let me cut to the case, brother, our history can be identified back to 1000 B.C. (by the ancient Assyrians - land of the Kurti) and 3000 B.C (by the ancient Sumerians - Karda, inhabitet by the Qurtiye), but the Kurds, as a people, have existed several millenias before that. The Kurds could date back to 6000 - 5800 B.C, with the Halaaf culture - who lived in the same area which Kurdistan lies today. A culture which was closely followed by the Ubid culture (which came from Mesopotamia) - lasted until 4300 B.C, when it got replaced by the Hurrian culture. The Hurrian culture (which had a language similar to modern Chechen - Caucasian) ruled the area known today as Kurdistan, until they too got replaced by the Medes in 600 B.C. In 6th century B.C. the Carduchians (near Lake Van) were historically documented - they were, from what I know, decenders of the Medes who worshipped a Hurrian God of the sky, Tishub - this showed the continuation of the Hurrian culture to this date. So while the Indo-Iranians have influenced our culture, the Kurdish culture, we still continue to hold on to our Hurrian customs and beliefs. Also the Mitani, Hattite and Kassite kingdoms asserted themselves into the Hurrian areas after 2000 B.C. (but just because the leaders of these cultures were Indo-Europeans, doesn't mean the population and people under their command was).


Well, now this gets a bit merky... There were certainly native peoples who inhabited the region before the arrival of Indo-Europeans but these people were NOT Kurds. Kurds, as we know them today, probably formed 1000 years ago, although they certainly have ancestory that dates further back.

For example, the Elamites were not Persian, but they certainly mixed with Persians later on, but to claim that they were Persians would be ludicrous!

Originally posted by Azadi


I would also add that even today, in the 21. Century, Turks, Persians and Arabs take us as a subgroup of themself, this being said - as long as this backwards mentality dominates, we as Kurds will not be able to do enough research on our past, history - and therefore nationalistic forumusers, like fx. "balabanpasa" (kemalist, if I'm correct ? sorry, if I'm incorrect), will write and spread lies about our (already) thin-documented past.


Certainly in Turkey this is true, but Arabs and Persians do NOT make the claim that Kurds are subgroups of themselves. Persians may stress that we are related, but Persians would never make that claim, because its simply absurd. Believe, Persians know about and respect the Kurdish identity. Hell, Iran is the only country which even recognizes that a Kurdistan exists.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 16:39
Originally posted by Zert

Alright, thank you all for your replies. Especially the above one has a lot of information.

Extra question, how can it then be explained that Kurds and Jews (Israelis) seem to be so closely related? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts


DNA test was done on Kurds who live in Isreal or near Jews due to mixing.   Kurds are mainly related to Iranians and and have genetic ties to people who live close by due to mixing or kurdification

Kurds don't look like Jews, I am from Northern Kurdistan (Malatya Turkey) and all the Kurds I have met and seen resemble Azaris,Lurs and Persians, where as most Jews resemble Arabs in Jordan and Syria.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 17:10
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Very extensive post but I must disagree on several points.

Originally posted by Azadi

Selam bra Zert,

What makes this question hard to answer is the massive oppression and assimilation, the ethnic cleansing, of us Kurds in, generally speaking, all parts of Kurdistan.


Other than in Turkey and Iraq, I dont believe there is any ethnic cleansing going on in Syria or Iran. I'm not too sure about Syria, I may be wrong, but I know for a fact that there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Iran. Iranians have always been more tolerant of the various groups when compared to their neighbors. This is because Iran has always been a diverse country and from the beginning this diversity was accepted.

With that said, the dictatorial theocratic regime in Tehran is oppressive, and oppresses all ethnic groups because it is a religious and not an ethnic based government. Remember, Khamenei is Azari, NOT Persia, and Mousavi, the unofficial leading figure of the Green Revolution is Azari, not Persian.

So the Iranian people in general are VERY tolerant, Persians get a bad rap because it is PERCEIVED that they are running the show, which is in fact incorrect. This is supported in that there are provinces in Iran with majority Persian populations that are actually POORER than provinces where minorities make the majority.

Originally posted by Azadi


But, in spite of their attempts to assimilate us Kurds into the major ethnic groups of our neighbours, 40 million (hard to find the accurate number, because of the suppresion) of us still retain our own customs and language, which consists of many groups (among some of the 50 biggest are Herkî, Zêbarî, Mizorî, Doskî, Sindî, Herwarî, Herwamî, Babanî, Jafî and Berzencî) who speak different, but a related language - the Kurdish language, which consists of 12 dialects of the northwestern subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch. (The language tree, nothing to do with todays "Iran" and "Iranians" - therefore we Kurds are differentiated by our language, our tribal affiliation, geographic regions, the treatment of the sexes - and our various religions - Sunni, Shi'a, Shi'ite Alevi, Sufi, Yazidi, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian +).


Again, I would like to point out that although the Iranian government is oppressive, it is more tolerant to ethnic groups within the country when compared to its neighbors. Kurdish culture and language are not under attack in Iran.

Also, I'm glad you pointed out that being "Iranian" (as in of the Aryan branch of Indo-Europeans), should not be confused with being of the Iranian nationality, which includes Arabs, Africans, Turkomans, etc...

Kurds are an Iranian peoples, like Persians, Balouchi's, Talyshi's, etc... but you'd be surprised at the amount of cultural similarities that exists between these different peoples. Linguistically the differences are greater (although the languages have the same roots and certain basic similarities) but culturally we share many major things.

Originally posted by Azadi


But let me cut to the case, brother, our history can be identified back to 1000 B.C. (by the ancient Assyrians - land of the Kurti) and 3000 B.C (by the ancient Sumerians - Karda, inhabitet by the Qurtiye), but the Kurds, as a people, have existed several millenias before that. The Kurds could date back to 6000 - 5800 B.C, with the Halaaf culture - who lived in the same area which Kurdistan lies today. A culture which was closely followed by the Ubid culture (which came from Mesopotamia) - lasted until 4300 B.C, when it got replaced by the Hurrian culture. The Hurrian culture (which had a language similar to modern Chechen - Caucasian) ruled the area known today as Kurdistan, until they too got replaced by the Medes in 600 B.C. In 6th century B.C. the Carduchians (near Lake Van) were historically documented - they were, from what I know, decenders of the Medes who worshipped a Hurrian God of the sky, Tishub - this showed the continuation of the Hurrian culture to this date. So while the Indo-Iranians have influenced our culture, the Kurdish culture, we still continue to hold on to our Hurrian customs and beliefs. Also the Mitani, Hattite and Kassite kingdoms asserted themselves into the Hurrian areas after 2000 B.C. (but just because the leaders of these cultures were Indo-Europeans, doesn't mean the population and people under their command was).


Well, now this gets a bit merky... There were certainly native peoples who inhabited the region before the arrival of Indo-Europeans but these people were NOT Kurds. Kurds, as we know them today, probably formed 1000 years ago, although they certainly have ancestory that dates further back.

For example, the Elamites were not Persian, but they certainly mixed with Persians later on, but to claim that they were Persians would be ludicrous!

Originally posted by Azadi


I would also add that even today, in the 21. Century, Turks, Persians and Arabs take us as a subgroup of themself, this being said - as long as this backwards mentality dominates, we as Kurds will not be able to do enough research on our past, history - and therefore nationalistic forumusers, like fx. "balabanpasa" (kemalist, if I'm correct ? sorry, if I'm incorrect), will write and spread lies about our (already) thin-documented past.


Certainly in Turkey this is true, but Arabs and Persians do NOT make the claim that Kurds are subgroups of themselves. Persians may stress that we are related, but Persians would never make that claim, because its simply absurd. Believe, Persians know about and respect the Kurdish identity. Hell, Iran is the only country which even recognizes that a Kurdistan exists.


I also do not understand this hate that some Kurds have towards Persians.  I always try to explain that Iran is not even ruled by Persians, it mainly ruled by Azari Turks.  Iran has not been fully run by Persians since the Sassanids.

Most of the bad treatment that Kurds have recieved from Iran was Post-Islamic era which was ruled by Arabs early on then the Mongols came then the Turks.

Kurds share so much in common with Persians, that Kurds even deny it.  I disagree with Kurds on this forum who say Persian and Kurdish language are not that similar, then why do I understand so many words when a persian speaks? More then a English speaker can understand German or a German speak can understand Danish(who are neighbours).  I believe the difference between Kurdish and Persian language is that of Spanish and Portuages. 


Edited by Ince - 07-Feb-2010 at 17:14
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  Quote Messopotamian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 05:46

Iranian Azaris not have Turkic origin ( i think ). They diffrent with other Azaris(northern Azeri )

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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 06:38
Originally posted by Messopotamian

Iranian Azaris not have Turkic origin ( i think ). They diffrent with other Azaris(northern Azeri )



I am aware of that but they Identify themselves as Turks have been for hundreds of years, since been Turkified.  So they are not Persians,  Kurds claim they are Turkified Medes, which would be Ironic.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 10:05
Originally posted by Messopotamian

Iranian Azaris not have Turkic origin ( i think ). They diffrent with other Azaris(northern Azeri )



Yes. Arrani's (people from the Republic of Azerbaijan, formerly known as Arran and other names by Iranians and Westerners) are ethnically different from Azari's (from Azarbaijan, Iran).

Arrani's are caucasian, whereas Azari's are Iranic, however, they are related culturally, religiously, and linguistically are are both referred to as Azeri's.
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 14:48
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Other than in Turkey and Iraq, I dont believe there is any ethnic cleansing going on in Syria or Iran. I'm not too sure about Syria, I may be wrong, but I know for a fact that there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Iran. Iranians have always been more tolerant of the various groups when compared to their neighbors. This is because Iran has always been a diverse country and from the beginning this diversity was accepted.

With that said, the dictatorial theocratic regime in Tehran is oppressive, and oppresses all ethnic groups because it is a religious and not an ethnic based government. Remember, Khamenei is Azari, NOT Persia, and Mousavi, the unofficial leading figure of the Green Revolution is Azari, not Persian.

So the Iranian people in general are VERY tolerant, Persians get a bad rap because it is PERCEIVED that they are running the show, which is in fact incorrect. This is supported in that there are provinces in Iran with majority Persian populations that are actually POORER than provinces where minorities make the majority.

Explanation of 'ethnic cleansing':
Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.

The denial of the Kurdish language and culture, not to speak of our existence, in East-Kurdistan, Irani-Kurdistan, began in 1925 under the rule of the Pahlavi Dynasti - Reza Shah. This went from denial of Kurdish customs and history, to - in 19th century - total denial of the Kurdish identity, after the administrational and political centralization was completed.

I'm not saying this was directed at Kurds only, because the first Pahlavi - Reza Shah - suppressed all languages - both education and written material, except in Farsi.

For Gods sake, people got persecuted because they committed the crime of speaking and writing in their illegal language. National cloths were also forbidden for some time.

As a result, in the beginning of the 20. century Kurdish national movements rose, and the too well known "rebellion and suppression" formed the modern Kurdish community. The sovjet-backed Mahabad Republic was formed in this period, but in December 1946 - almost a year later after the foundation - the Republic was crushed. Kurdish printing press got shut down, education in the Kurdish language got banned and each and every Kurdish book the Army found was burned. Soon after the second Pahlavi hanged the leaders. This was the past.

The Kurds' present situation is... well not that harsh, and definitely not that primitive - national oppression under the 'new' Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalism exists through. First, I would like to point out something important. The Ayatollas and Mullas had a central role in the 1979 Revolution (especially politically - turned into an Islamic Revolution), but the clergy held no key position in politics (and still don't) in Kurdistan, therefore the movement in Kurdistan was in contrast with the so-called Islamic Revolution. Fx. the referendum in 1979 (resulted in founding of the Islamic state) was boycotted by the Kurdish community, so we could say that the Revolution didn't take place in East-Kurdistan - this mentality changed when Agha Khomeini some months after his coup began his all-out assailment on the Kurds.

From this point on the most prominent Kurdish party in East-Kurdistan (PDKI) rose up again - Qazi Muhammed, the president of Mahabad Republic was the founder.

After the revolution the state startet the discrimination of the Kurds. Fx. as a result of East-Kurdistan being non-industrialization area (state policy) the highest rate for unemployment and drug-related prisoners were from this area - an area where drugs were TOTALLY unheard of just 15 years ago! (I know this from personal experience also, son of pêşmergeleader). To sum up some of the restrictions for us Kurds in East:

We don't get high position, in terms of employment.
We are not present in history books (or falsified).
We don't learn our language in official schools.
We don't have ANY form for self-rule (something the Kurds in South-Kurdistan had, even with Saddam Hussein in power...).
We are politically oppressed.
We are not allowed to have independent parties.
We are not allowed to have independent newspapers (some magazines and books do actually get published, heavily censored though).

Execution, torture and murder (mafia-like) of political and non-political persons is remarkably widespread in East, this does not apply to the rest of Iran - I'm not claiming this doesn't exist in the rest of the country, though. Assassination of political figures carried out by the Irani government even exists outside the country - Dr. Abdul Rahman Ghassemlou yê nemir.

Ethnic cleansing ? First, I did say "generally speaking", but there was some.
You can find decent groups of Kurds in Kerman, Baluchestan and Fars. And as of 1987 three-houndred-fifty-thousand Kurds lived north-Khorasaan - if this wasn't a direct result of Irans 17. century' forcible removal of the Kurds, I do not know what to believe anymore.

Now lets not be so negative...

These last years, the last decade generally, East-Kurdistan has blossomed both politically and culturally - this can also be said about many parts of Iran. The literary and political elite were the only ones who could read and write in Kurdish, this was the case 2-3 decades ago. Since the Kurdish language is forbidden in official education, Kurdish parents send their children to private classes - 10 years ago stuff like this was unheard of - therefore reading and writing in the Kurdish language is very common among the new generations today. Circles, societies, seminars and meeting have sprung up like Newroz/Nowruz! Democratic values, human rights, individual, cultural and social values, political pluralism, equal rights between the sexes are ideas which have found their ways to the new generations minds in Kurdistan and Iran.

With Kurds, Persians, Azaris, Baluchis, Arabs and Turksmens within it's borders Iran could suit being a federate system. Perhaps be the first one in the Middle-East! But since no necessary steps have been taken in this direction, the best solution for the Kurds right now is a free Kurdistan.

The suppression of the Kurds in West-Kurdistan is another sad, but very covert history, this might explain why you never have heard about it. 

There are almost 2 million Kurds in West-Kurdistan, whereof 300.000 (these kind of numbers tend to be lower than in the reality, so the exact amount is probably much higher) got stripped of their citizenship. Also because Damascus claimed that the ancestors of the Kurds in this region didn't have valid Ottoman registration records before 1920 - many of these 2 million Kurds didn't get identification cards, something you all surely know the importance of (without it you get NO education, NO healthcare and probably NO job). When Kurds with ID cards get treated worse than animals, I wonder how good stateless persons get treated. We could say, in official terms, they did not exist.

This was before the Ba'athist Haffez al-Assad, and later his son and current Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, became president. So when they got the power, the situation changed dramaticly. Syrian Ba'athists began a program of 'Arabization' - about on the same time as Saddam Hussein launched his 'Arabization' and 'Anfal'-campaign.

This Syrian Ba'athi 'Arabization'-program replaced Kurdish names, with Arabic ones. From this time on NO children, NO city, NO business, NO building could have a Kurdish (or Kurdish-influenced name). Also hundreds of villages (don't know exact number) got replaced, and the villagers got removed south-west. The media uses the term "buried alive", something I think resembles the reality these poor people struggle with each and every day - I personally feel extremely depressed when I think about this particular part of Kurdistan, not only because of Saladin and his role in Syria.

Need more ?

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Again, I would like to point out that although the Iranian government is oppressive, it is more tolerant to ethnic groups within the country when compared to its neighbors. Kurdish culture and language are not under attack in Iran.

Also, I'm glad you pointed out that being "Iranian" (as in of the Aryan branch of Indo-Europeans), should not be confused with being of the Iranian nationality, which includes Arabs, Africans, Turkomans, etc...

Kurds are an Iranian peoples, like Persians, Balouchi's, Talyshi's, etc... but you'd be surprised at the amount of cultural similarities that exists between these different peoples. Linguistically the differences are greater (although the languages have the same roots and certain basic similarities) but culturally we share many major things.

I do not doubt one moment at the fact that Kurds share some of the same cultural and social values as Persians. This is something I would never deny, and something I'm very proud of. But, linguistically - as you've pointed out - there are more than just small differences.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Well, now this gets a bit merky... There were certainly native peoples who inhabited the region before the arrival of Indo-Europeans but these people were NOT Kurds. Kurds, as we know them today, probably formed 1000 years ago, although they certainly have ancestory that dates further back.

For example, the Elamites were not Persian, but they certainly mixed with Persians later on, but to claim that they were Persians would be ludicrous!

I personally think the Medes are our ancestors, but nothing is sure, therefore I put the whole history of the area - because like you said many different nations mixed with each other, and made the nations we see today. This means fx. Mitanis could be the ancestors for many different groups of people, and not reserved to one group only.


Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Certainly in Turkey this is true, but Arabs and Persians do NOT make the claim that Kurds are subgroups of themselves. Persians may stress that we are related, but Persians would never make that claim, because its simply absurd. Believe, Persians know about and respect the Kurdish identity. Hell, Iran is the only country which even recognizes that a Kurdistan exists.

Turkey is to laugh at, they even adopted Newroz as their spring-holiday... Turkish archaeologists and scientists proved with DNA that it actually was an ancient Turkic day of celebration, alongside some Aztec and Inca traditions. And for your information, Arabs have actually tried to take the Ayybid-dynasty and several other Kurdish dynasties as Arabic – since they faught for Islam, and didn't have a dream for Kurdistan. I wouldn't say Iran recognizes Kurdistan and respects Kurdish identity, but I'm sorry for my bald statement of saying Persians take Kurds as a subgroup of themself. That just came out wrong. Hope you understand.

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 08:07
Ince wrote;

"Kurds don't look like Jews, I am from Northern Kurdistan (Malatya Turkey) and all the Kurds I have met and seen resemble Azaris,Lurs and Persians, where as most Jews resemble Arabs in Jordan and Syria."

Ince, have you ever been in Israel? If not then your words concerning "look like" may not be correct, after all the largest percentage of Jews in Israel have for the most part, been from Central and Eastern Europe, E.g. Russia (former USSR), Poland, Hungary, etc., and this group is alleged to have been the descendants of a tribe that converted to Judaism in Russia!

Thus, it seems it would be hard for them to resemble an Arabian?

But, those Jews from Western Europe and N. Africa, would more likely to have Arabic genes, and thus more likely resemble their Arabic ancestors!

Sephardic (Spain and N. Africa) and Ashkenazi (Russian steppes?)
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 09:37
Thanks for the extensive reply but there are some points with which I still have to disagree.

Firstly, I would like to say that I do not think you are looking at the oppression thats going on in Iran as a whole, and are simply making yourself believe that Kurds are being specifically targeted.

Keep in mind that the Iranian government is a NON-ETHNIC based SHIA THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT which stresses religion over anything else.

Originally posted by Azadi

Explanation of 'ethnic cleansing':
Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.

The denial of the Kurdish language and culture, not to speak of our existence, in East-Kurdistan, Irani-Kurdistan, began in 1925 under the rule of the Pahlavi Dynasti - Reza Shah. This went from denial of Kurdish customs and history, to - in 19th century - total denial of the Kurdish identity, after the administrational and political centralization was completed.

I'm not saying this was directed at Kurds only, because the first Pahlavi - Reza Shah - suppressed all languages - both education and written material, except in Farsi.

For Gods sake, people got persecuted because they committed the crime of speaking and writing in their illegal language. National cloths were also forbidden for some time.

As a result, in the beginning of the 20. century Kurdish national movements rose, and the too well known "rebellion and suppression" formed the modern Kurdish community. The sovjet-backed Mahabad Republic was formed in this period, but in December 1946 - almost a year later after the foundation - the Republic was crushed. Kurdish printing press got shut down, education in the Kurdish language got banned and each and every Kurdish book the Army found was burned. Soon after the second Pahlavi hanged the leaders. This was the past.


Yes, that is the past, but we are talking about the present. Reza Shah was simply following the path of Ataturk to what he believed would modernize the country. Was he right? No.

Originally posted by Azadi


The Kurds' present situation is... well not that harsh, and definitely not that primitive - national oppression under the 'new' Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalism exists through. First, I would like to point out something important. The Ayatollas and Mullas had a central role in the 1979 Revolution (especially politically - turned into an Islamic Revolution), but the clergy held no key position in politics (and still don't) in Kurdistan, therefore the movement in Kurdistan was in contrast with the so-called Islamic Revolution. Fx. the referendum in 1979 (resulted in founding of the Islamic state) was boycotted by the Kurdish community, so we could say that the Revolution didn't take place in East-Kurdistan - this mentality changed when Agha Khomeini some months after his coup began his all-out assailment on the Kurds.


There is a very simply answer to this question: Iran is ruled by a SHIA THEOCRATIC government.

The vast majority of Kurds are SUNNI Muslims, which means they have no place in a SHIA government.

Originally posted by Azadi


From this point on the most prominent Kurdish party in East-Kurdistan (PDKI) rose up again - Qazi Muhammed, the president of Mahabad Republic was the founder.

After the revolution the state startet the discrimination of the Kurds. Fx. as a result of East-Kurdistan being non-industrialization area (state policy) the highest rate for unemployment and drug-related prisoners were from this area - an area where drugs were TOTALLY unheard of just 15 years ago! (I know this from personal experience also, son of pêşmergeleader).


First of all, Drugs (opium) have always been present in Iran, and for many centuries it was socially acceptable and part of the culture. So you are telling me that there were no drugs at all in Eastern Iran?Confused

With regards to industrialization: Iran is NOT an industrialized country. Other than Tehran, there is no province in Iran which can be considered industrialized. Iran is still a poor developing country under an enormous amount of sanctions, it CANNOT provide for its people, whether Kurds, Persians, Azari's, Balouchi's, etc...

Furthermore, the difference in regional development is a historical phenomenon more than anything else. The major cities of Iran historically for the past few centuries have been Tabriz and Isfahan, with Tehran being a new comer. That is why the area's around these three cities tend to be more economically prosperous than say Shiraz, Mashad, or Sanandaj.

And like I said before, there are provinces in Iran with Majority Persian populations that are POORER than provinces in Iran with majority minority populations.

Originally posted by Azadi


To sum up some of the restrictions for us Kurds in East:

We don't get high position, in terms of employment.


In terms of general employment or employment in the government?

In terms of employment, I know for a fact that that is not true, because my cousin's (who lives in Iran) best friend is Kurdish and his dad owns a factory...needless to say they are far from poor or deprived.

In terms of employment with the government, Sunni's may be deprived, but Shia Kurds hold positions, especially provincial positions.

Originally posted by Azadi


We are not present in history books (or falsified).


Neither are PersiansWink The Islamic Republic wants to exclude Iran's pre-Islamic history from textbooks and they have done it, very successfully. Historical manipulation is a tactic used by all dictatorships, it has nothing to do with picking on Kurds.

Originally posted by Azadi


We don't learn our language in official schools.


Not true.

This is what the UNHCR says:

13. While the Committee notes that, according to the State party, the teaching of minority languages and literature in schools is permitted, it requests that the State party include more information in its next periodic report concerning the measures it has adopted to enable persons belonging to minorities to have adequate opportunities to learn their mother tongue and to have it used as a medium of instruction.


source: http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/%28Symbol%29/CERD.C.63.CO.6.En?Opendocument

Originally posted by Azadi


We don't have ANY form for self-rule (something the Kurds in South-Kurdistan had, even with Saddam Hussein in power...).


NO ONE in Iran has self rule, because Iran is a DICTATORSHIP and has a CENTRALIZED government policy.

The Kurds in Iraq had autonomy because of Iranian and later UN support, which prevented Saddam from suppressing them or invading their territory.

Originally posted by Azadi


We are politically oppressed.


So is EVERYONE.

Originally posted by Azadi


We are not allowed to have independent parties.


NO ONE is allowed to have independent parties.

Originally posted by Azadi


We are not allowed to have independent newspapers (some magazines and books do actually get published, heavily censored though).


NO ONE is allowed to have independent newspapers and EVERYONES publications get vetted by the government and are censored.

With that said:

Annika Rabo, Bo Utas, “The role of the state in West Asia”, Swedish Research institute in Istanbul , 2005. pg 156. Excerpt:

"There is in fact, a considerable publication (book, newspaper, etc.) taking place in the two largest minority languages in the Azerbaijani language and Kurdish, and in the academic year 2004-05 B.A. programmes in the Azerbaijani language and literature (in Tabriz) and in the Kurdish language and literature (in Sanandaj) are offered in Iran for the very first time"


World of Information Staff, “ Middle East Review 2003 2003: The Economic and Business Report”, Kogan Page, 2003. pp 52-53:

Regional and local radio programmes are broadcast in Arabic, Armenian, Assyrian, Azerbaijani, Baluchi, Bandari, Persian, Kurdish, Mazandarani, Pashtu, Turkoman, Turkish and Urdu.

Originally posted by Azadi


Execution, torture and murder (mafia-like) of political and non-political persons is remarkably widespread in East, this does not apply to the rest of Iran - I'm not claiming this doesn't exist in the rest of the country, though. Assassination of political figures carried out by the Irani government even exists outside the country - Dr. Abdul Rahman Ghassemlou yê nemir.


WHAT? Does not apply to the rest of Iran? HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING UNDER A ROCK FOR THE PAST 8 MONTHS?

I guarantee you that there are more Persian and Azari political prisoners in Iran than there are Kurds.

Originally posted by Azadi


Ethnic cleansing ? First, I did say "generally speaking", but there was some.
You can find decent groups of Kurds in Kerman, Baluchestan and Fars. And as of 1987 three-houndred-fifty-thousand Kurds lived north-Khorasaan - if this wasn't a direct result of Irans 17. century' forcible removal of the Kurds, I do not know what to believe anymore.


Again, that is the past and has nothing to do with whats going on now.

Originally posted by Azadi

These last years, the last decade generally, East-Kurdistan has blossomed both politically and culturally - this can also be said about many parts of Iran. The literary and political elite were the only ones who could read and write in Kurdish, this was the case 2-3 decades ago. Since the Kurdish language is forbidden in official education, Kurdish parents send their children to private classes - 10 years ago stuff like this was unheard of - therefore reading and writing in the Kurdish language is very common among the new generations today. Circles, societies, seminars and meeting have sprung up like Newroz/Nowruz! Democratic values, human rights, individual, cultural and social values, political pluralism, equal rights between the sexes are ideas which have found their ways to the new generations minds in Kurdistan and Iran.


Yes, this awakening is because of the reform movement and hopefully the Green Revolution will overthrow these barbarians once and for all!

Originally posted by Azadi


With Kurds, Persians, Azaris, Baluchis, Arabs and Turksmens within it's borders Iran could suit being a federate system. Perhaps be the first one in the Middle-East! But since no necessary steps have been taken in this direction, the best solution for the Kurds right now is a free Kurdistan.


Yes, federalism is the best solution, not only in Iran, but everywhere. However, this government will never do anything good for Iran, so dont expect them to.

Originally posted by Azadi


I personally think the Medes are our ancestors, but nothing is sure, therefore I put the whole history of the area - because like you said many different nations mixed with each other, and made the nations we see today. This means fx. Mitanis could be the ancestors for many different groups of people, and not reserved to one group only.


Yes, I agree, I think the Medes mixed with other groups which eventually formed the Kurdish ethnic group.

---------------------------------------

With all this said, I AM NOT DEFENDING THE MONSTERS THAT RUN IRAN. I am simply trying to get rid of some of the over exaggerated misconceptions that many minorities have (and I'm not blaming them, this is natural when suppression occurs, hell, Persians and Azari's say a lot of crazy things about the Mullahs too, a lot of which isnt true)

But here are somethings to keep in mind:

1) Iran is ruled by SHIA clergy
2) Iran is a DICTATORSHIP
3) Iran is being ruled by a MINORITY (Khamenei is Azari)
4) Political and cultural suppression is widespread and applies to every ethnic group in Iran
5) Nothing will ever change under this government, we must get rid of it.
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  Quote Messopotamian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2010 at 06:53
Someone says " Abraham was Kurds,He's origin Suleymaniya / Iraq ( HHK )
 
 :D
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2010 at 18:41
Originally posted by Zert

Alright, thank you all for your replies. Especially the above one has a lot of information.

Extra question, how can it then be explained that Kurds and Jews (Israelis) seem to be so closely related? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts


I recently found this and here a quote from the article.  it explains the point I was making earlyer. 

"I suspect that the Jews would be genetically closer to peoples who spoke North Semitic languages such as Assyrians, rather than group (a) Arabs. I suspect that the Kurds reported by Jaqui White (presumably with non U-5 gene clusters) are those Assyrians who were Iranicized after the ascension of the Mede and later Achaemenid Empires. Also, many Jews were assimilated into Iranian culture, especially in Kurdistan. My wife, who is Kurdish, showed me many Jewish shrines in Iranian Kurdistan and west Iran, including the tomb of Esther and Mordechai in Hamedan"

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=5927


Edited by Ince - 16-Feb-2010 at 18:41
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2010 at 19:58
I found this on the Genetic testing on the Kurds.  From what I can read, Kurds of Turkey and Iran are close to north and central Iranians.  Kurds from Turkey also seem to be close to their Turkish neighbours.

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf

After looking at this, I can see that Kurds are genetically very close to Iranians in iran.  Also I noticed that haplogroup J1(Arab) is absent among Anatolian Kurds and West Iranian Kurds.

So what do you guys think this says about the Origin of the Kurds? 


Edited by Ince - 20-Feb-2010 at 20:02
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2010 at 12:59
Well, all Iranian peoples are genetically related to each other because we have the same origins. Turks in Turkey are Turkified Anatolians, Iranics, Caucasians, Greeks, Armenians, etc...
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2010 at 15:34
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Well, all Iranian peoples are genetically related to each other because we have the same origins. Turks in Turkey are Turkified Anatolians, Iranics, Caucasians, Greeks, Armenians, etc...


That really dents a hole in the Ultra-Nationalists Kurds who claim they are not related to Persians.   Also it proves that Kurds are mainly Iranic stock.  Where some claim Kurds are a Mixture of natives that lived their and are not Iranian.  Well that could be said for everyone in Iran as Kurds,Persians Lurs,Balouch,Azari's have been intermixing for thousands of years with sourounding neighbours. For example Persians in Iran are closer to Kurds then they are to their fellow Persian speaking Tajiks.  Does that make Tajiks less Persian? No, their culture and language is Persian.

Also  Houplegroup R2(M124) is found in Kurds and Iranians from Iran, but it is absent in Anatolian Turks.  Houplegroup R2(M124), is mainly found in India, Pakistan and southern Central Asia.  Which proves that intermixing has been going on.  Also it could have been from Elamites?


Edited by Ince - 21-Feb-2010 at 15:36
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 06:45
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Thanks for the extensive reply but there are some points with which I still have to disagree.

Firstly, I would like to say that I do not think you are looking at the oppression thats going on in Iran as a whole, and are simply making yourself believe that Kurds are being specifically targeted.

Keep in mind that the Iranian government is a NON-ETHNIC based SHIA THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT which stresses religion over anything else.

I've to clear up something, when I say we, or even Kurds as a whole, I mean the oppressed people in general. Whether it's Kurds, Balochis, Azeri, Persians... Some of my best friends here in Norway are Persians and Azeri, so I know very well what you're talking about, but I apologize if you thought something else.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

First of all, Drugs (opium) have always been present in Iran, and for many centuries it was socially acceptable and part of the culture. So you are telling me that there were no drugs at all in Eastern Iran?Confused

Ofcourse there are drugs in Eastern Iran.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

In terms of general employment or employment in the government?
In terms of employment, I know for a fact that that is not true, because my cousin's (who lives in Iran) best friend is Kurdish and his dad owns a factory...needless to say they are far from poor or deprived.

In terms of employment with the government, Sunni's may be deprived, but Shia Kurds hold positions, especially provincial positions.

Both actually, but when I say 'Kurd' I mean a person who is fighting for a free Kurdistan, though diplomacy or though other means. Just take my family for example, on my fathers side we have several pêşmerge and political activists, while on my mothers side they all are business men and students, not actually fighting for autonomy. The economical differences are therefor enormous, but in terms of being "Kurdish" the pêşmerge lay above all - and are respected more than everyone else, by Kurds everywhere. This being said, I think the best friend of your cousin is like my mothers family - because they too have their own shops and even trademarks, not only in Iran, but Dubai as well. And since they do not start asking and debating over a free Kurdistan, they're for the most of the time left alone.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Not true.

This is what the UNHCR says:

13. While the Committee notes that, according to the State party, the teaching of minority languages and literature in schools is permitted, it requests that the State party include more information in its next periodic report concerning the measures it has adopted to enable persons belonging to minorities to have adequate opportunities to learn their mother tongue and to have it used as a medium of instruction.


source: http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/%28Symbol%29/CERD.C.63.CO.6.En?Opendocument

In theory you're correct, but this is not the case.

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

WHAT? Does not apply to the rest of Iran? HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING UNDER A ROCK FOR THE PAST 8 MONTHS?
I guarantee you that there are more Persian and Azari political prisoners in Iran than there are Kurds.

Note that I said East, not Kurds alone, but the same area which most Azeri also live.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 18:42
Whilst I might be called an infidel outsider, perhaps that is what is needed in the area of your world or former world(s)?

At the risk of being banned, I would just like to postulate a few things! If indeed any of your seperate groups have occupied the same space in time for so many years, just why are all of you so occupied with "my group is better than your group?" And as a result there is always "hate", "hate", etc.!

If all of you guys consider that the currently accepted history is correct then all of you and your "groups" will have been considered to have basically occupied for over 1,000 years! Hey guys, in that many years even Lions and Lambs can learn to sleep together! But, none of you "higher life forms" can learn to do the same!

But, if you can accept that those events that supposedly happened according to our currently accepted time-line, was wrong, then other things can happen.

For example, just look at the problems that have occured in the Balkans in the last 30 or so years? Suddenly neighbors who had never had a cross word, began to kill one another! And, just what started it?

Can any of you tell us?

Truth be said, the Balkans and especially the former Yugoslavia, were and have been, an artifical creation dictated by the last World War! Actions and resettlements over the period of 1919 to 1949 created a mixture of religions and sects, etc., which had animosities against each other that has smoldered for many years, and the ramifications only came to a "boil" after the fall of Joseph Broz and the end of the "Wall!"

Suddenly "democracy", hit the area and all hell broke loose!

You can also describe our modern so called states of Iraq, and Iran, and other states now existing upon the borders of the above states, closely resemble the Balkans!

But, as we know the Balkans are only a part of the world that had massive movements of peoples and religions in the last 700 or less years!

But, on the other hand, the nations of Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, and the former Soviet border states, besides the artifical boundaries enforced upon this area from 1850 to 1960 CE, are relatively free from massive movements of peoples, and religious sides, since ancient times!

For example look at the Biblical and Assyrian, and Persian, etc. times when massive deportations of peoples reportedly took place! Accordingly, it seems, that our modern and accepted history, conceeds that hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of people were forceably removed from their homelands and forceably resettled hundreds or more miles away, as the whim of the ruler desired!

Can we really accept that? But, it seems it has been accepted for a few hundred years or better! And, it seems, most of these massive deportations happened in the area we know call "Before Christ!"

Gee, that means, that at the latest, those peoples have been living together for at the least over 2,000 years! It seems to me, that any people living within the same area for at least 2,000 years might well be able to "live together?" But, it seems I am wrong?

But, what if it was not 2,000 plus years?

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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