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What if nazi atomic bomb?

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Iankutanku View Drop Down
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  Quote Iankutanku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if nazi atomic bomb?
    Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 00:54
It would be interesting to find different scenarios, about what if the nazies would finished the athomic  bomb in time. They would won? They would obtained convenient peace conditions? How would evoluated the nazies in long term aafter-war peace? They would lost the power, or they would resisted like the communists?
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  Quote Iankutanku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 02:55
In my oppinion, The nazies would used the atomic bomb against soviets, for shure. Anyway, I think their aim would been to make russians to sourend, not to destroy all Russia, because they wanted the west part of Russia. So, I think they would used the atomic bomb against Moskow and Leningrad. After that, the russians would asked for peace. I don't think nazies would used the atomic bomb against brits. I think the brits would asked for peace, too, after they would seen what happened with Moskow and Leningrad.
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  Quote Iankutanku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 02:57
After peace, I don't think nazies would lasted like communists in USSR. I think they would lost the power, after 5-10 years of peace. Besides, Hitler wouldn't survived too much, because he was very ill-so, I think nazies would fallen faster.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 14:34
Thankfully this is an example of a question that will forever remain a question!

Maybe there really is a God?
Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Iankutanku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 09:58
Originally posted by opuslola

Thankfully this is an example of a question that will forever remain a question!

Maybe there really is a God?
Regards,
 We could say this, indeed!Wink
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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 02:09
Germany was very close to developing a Uranium A-bomb however these as opposed to Plutonium weapons are very hard to make failsafe and are quite fragile to handle in action. For example a Uranium bomb would not work in a V-2 rocket.

One of the few options was to use it from high altitude in a bomber over Britain. The Dornier 217K had a service ceiling of 53,000ft and the He-277 about 47,000 feet. These were the only two aircraft which could operate at safe altitude above RAF interception in 1945.

For germany by that stage fuel supplies of aviation fuel were so diminished that even with a working bomb, possibly the Germans could not find enough fuel for one raid.

German Me-262s were I understand using diesel rather than kerosene in 1945.   

Had germany fielded Jet fighters from 1940 as they could have done and had air superiority before 1943, then German refineries would not have been destroyed and the chance of an atomic bomber mission could have been possible by 1945.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 05:46
Originally posted by Tazjet

Germany was very close to developing a Uranium A-bomb however these as opposed to Plutonium weapons are very hard to make failsafe and are quite fragile to handle in action. For example a Uranium bomb would not work in a V-2 rocket.

One of the few options was to use it from high altitude in a bomber over Britain. The Dornier 217K had a service ceiling of 53,000ft and the He-277 about 47,000 feet. These were the only two aircraft which could operate at safe altitude above RAF interception in 1945.

For germany by that stage fuel supplies of aviation fuel were so diminished that even with a working bomb, possibly the Germans could not find enough fuel for one raid.

German Me-262s were I understand using diesel rather than kerosene in 1945.   

Had germany fielded Jet fighters from 1940 as they could have done and had air superiority before 1943, then German refineries would not have been destroyed and the chance of an atomic bomber mission could have been possible by 1945.
 

That’s why experts talk logistics. The Logistician draws  a line in the sand where the maneuver commander has to stop

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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 07:12
what happened if they had the bomb and used it? what the allies answere should have been?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 08:05
Originally posted by Tazjet

Germany was very close to developing a Uranium A-bomb however these as opposed to Plutonium weapons are very hard to make failsafe and are quite fragile to handle in action. For example a Uranium bomb would not work in a V-2 rocket.
 
I do not think Germany was close to developing an atomic bomb.  The atomic weapons program had two very difficult steps.  One step was understanding atomic science and obtaining fission material, the second step was actually designing and engineering a working bomb.
 
To my knowledge, the Germans never even started the engineering process. The U.S. only developed atomic weapons becaue they had almost unlimited recesources for both steps.
 
Originally posted by Tazjet


For germany by that stage fuel supplies of aviation fuel were so diminished that even with a working bomb, possibly the Germans could not find enough fuel for one raid.
Though the Germans were essentially out of gas, I think they could of found the fuel for one or more missions that were national strategic priorities.
Originally posted by kalhur

what happened if they had the bomb and used it? what the allies answere should have been?
 
If the Germans had atomic bombs before 1944, they could have won the war.  If the Germans had the bombs after D-day, I think it would have led to a cease fire. 
 
This might be a scenario for after D-Day:
-Allies land in France, Soviets move in from the east
-Allies do not have atomic weapons yet
-Germany picks a British industrial city as an example. Soviet targets are too far away to have the same impact in the west. 
-Then, Germans destroy Manchester, England.  Allies offer a cease fire.


Edited by Cryptic - 20-May-2010 at 09:03
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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 16:43

"To my knowledge, the Germans never even started the engineering process."

Incorrect. Ardenne hired a brilliant Dutch physicist Dr Fritz Houtermanns who calculated the critical mass for Plutonium and Uranium warheads in 1941. His paper is worth a read:  

Houtermanns, “Zer Frage der Auslosung” (Nov 1941) pp 31,33 (Oak Ridge G-94, pp.139) 1944 reprint of this report with omissions is (Oak Ridge G-267, pp.33)

Austrian Prof Jozef Schintlemeister was proposing a Plutonium A-bomb in 1940.

Heisenberg also gave a presentation early during the war to persuade Nazi leaders to support an Atomic weapons project in which, whilst answering a question from Luftwaffe Air Marshall Erhard Milch about the size of such a warhead, Heisenberg replied only the size of a Pineapple.

 

Dr Paul Harteck persuaded the Heerswaffenamt (HWA) in 1944 to award a 600,000 Reichsmark contract for the building of mark III-B centrifuges at the Hellage factory in Freiberg. Ten were built at a price of 15,000 RM each and set up at Kandern before Freiberg was  bombed on 27 November 1944. Gerlach who headed the Unavernin in 1944 wrote to Goering's secretary in October 1944 that Uranium enrichment was in progress.

This report describes development of Uranium ultracentifuges: Johannes Jensen Über die Ultrazentrifugenmethode zur Trennung der Uranisotope G-95 (December 1941)

 

The following ALSOS report is worth contemplating: "Report on Uranium centrifuge plants at Kandern & Freiburg" (found in Oak Ridge file box G-330)


 
Hitler also gave a decree in September 1944 FHQU 219/44 for urgent production of an atomic weapon also directing that the massive Me-264 Amerika bomber be prepared for a mission to New York .


"I do not think Germany was close to developing an atomic bomb.  The atomic weapons program had two very difficult steps.  One step was understanding atomic science and obtaining fission material, the second step was actually designing and engineering a working bomb."

Germany had extensive supplies of Uranium at Jac-a-mov in western Czechoslovakia and even shipped it to Japan throughout 1944 via U-boat. The Uranium was refined to Yellowcake at the Degaussa plant in Oranienberg. There was no shortage of material nor of design and engineering capacity. Germany also had plenty of slave labour.

Heavy water was produced at IG Farben's Leuna plant in Saxony-Anhalt and also by Harteck at a Plant near Keil. The loss of norwegian Heavy water slowed but did not prevent research on reactors. In any event nuclear reactors were a blind alley leading to Plutonium and as I point out Dr Kurt Diebner was trying to produce a Uranium A-bomb. It is relatively straight forward to develop a gun & trigger Uranium bomb with sufficient Enriched Uranium.





 


Edited by Tazjet - 20-May-2010 at 16:47
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 17:10
I agree with cryptic except I think that a ceasefire would have only been a likely scenario if the Germans had a working weapon towards the end of 1944. After D-Day, the German's still had a massive military capability, and with a bomb they could have still won the war outright.

In a ceasefire situation, assuming the German's were able to produce a couple bombs, I doubt they would have used them in the west. They would have probably picked Russian targets to slow down or stop the Russian advance, and simply negotiated with the Western powers, which would surely agree to a ceasefire.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 20-May-2010 at 17:12
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 17:31
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I doubt they would have used them in the west. They would have probably picked Russian targets to slow down or stop the Russian advance, and simply negotiated with the Western powers, which would surely agree to a ceasefire.
 
I disagree. The western allies were not going to be moved by Soviet deaths or the destruction of Soviet cities. Furthermore, the Soviets were led by a sociopathic dictator who would order total censorship of the attacks and decide that the USSR could absorb an atomic bomb or two, or three, and still win the war. 
 
Meanwhile the western allies were democracies, and civilian casualties mattered alot. Their censorship capabilities more limited. My guess is that the Germans would strike two British cities.  Not only would the British be severely shocked, but photos and first hand accounts of the attacks would quickly find their way to the rest of Britain and then to America.
Once they had the fissionable materials, the allies still needed to spend a massive amount or recesources to develop a working bomb.  Also allied engineers were working in a peacetime environment and included the best minds from all over the world.
 
Why are Unranium based bombs easier to engineer?
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 20-May-2010 at 17:41
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 17:34
No, I wasnt suggesting that the Germans would go after real militarily significant targets such as industrial sites or anything.

What I'm saying is that the Germans would probably have nuked an advancing Russian army (which were massive armies). The radiation and the shock would surely halt a Russian advance. Furthermore, the allies were very well aware of what was going on in the Eastern front. They may not have cared about Soviet deaths, but the news of the bomb would surely scare them from a military view point and make them fear for their own countries and people, prompting them to hold ceasefire talks.

The Germans would then be able to focus completely on the Soviets, which the West would not mind.

Do you kinda see where I'm coming from? All of this is speculation, but I highly doubt that the Germans would be able to get a bomber over British airspace. They didnt have the air supremacy to do so.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 20-May-2010 at 17:38
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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 17:44
If one supposes that a Hiroshima sized bomb were available to the Germans in 1945their only practical use was against large centres of population and probably at that point Moscow or London by high altitude bombing.

Hitler however had a bizarre preoccupation with bombing New York.

It took so long to produce enriched uranium that we are talking an output of enough for one bomb every couple of months at optimum. Thus if you hurl one at a widely sctattered Russian tank army what effect will that have when the Russians were fielding several armies?

Even had the Germans perfected the bomb, it would have been used frugally to maximum effect.

Speer wrote after the war that Lt Gen Kammler told him in Berlin on 3 April 1945 that if Hitler was toppled by plotters that kammler intended to buy his freedom by selling Nazi secret technology to the Allies. I suspect that in reality work on the bomb halted according to a secret deal brokered by Kammler.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


What I'm saying is that the Germans would probably have nuked an advancing Russian army (which were massive armies). The radiation and the shock would surely halt a Russian advance.
 
I see where you are coming from, but military units are very hard to nuke. Especially with the relatively small size of WWII atomic weapons. Unlike civilian targets, military units are usually very spread out, tanks etc. can take alot of blast damage, and units can quickly move away from the blast area via trucks or even marching. Also, soldiers are disciplined and less likely to panic. 
 
The best way to use a small number of WWII atomic weapons was against densly populated cities with immobile populations.  
 
Originally posted by Tazjet

If one supposes that a Hiroshima sized bomb were available to the Germans in 1945their only practical use was against large centres of population and probably at that point Moscow or London by high altitude bombing.

Hitler however had a bizarre preoccupation with bombing New York.
I agree. I think that London would be picked over Moscow as Stalin was less likely to be moved by the casualties.  Hitler's fantasies about nuking New York were probably due to the large Jewish population of the city.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 20-May-2010 at 17:52
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 18:09
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
I see where you are coming from, but military units are very hard to nuke. Especially with the relatively small size of WWII atomic weapons. Unlike civilian targets, military units are usually very spread out, tanks etc. can take alot of blast damage, and units can quickly move away from the blast area via trucks or even marching.


True, this is a good point.

However, regardless of actual damage or casualties (which would still be significant IMO), I still believe such a show of might would stop Soviet military advances dead in their tracks for a considerable amount of time. The Soviets would have to regroup, think about what had just happened, assess the situation and the probability of more such attacks, etc...

The bomb that hit Hiroshima, for example, did 4.7 sq miles of damange, Russian armies were huge and dispersed, but the German's could have easily dropped a bomb on infantry causing thousands of deaths and more from radiation. The destruction would also prevent more units from moving through that area without getting exposed to radiation.

Originally posted by Cryptic


 Also, soldiers are disciplined and less likely to panic.


But the news would send shock waves throughout the world.
 
Originally posted by Cryptic


The best way to use a small number of WWII atomic weapons was against densly populated cities with immobile populations. 


Did the Germans have the ability to penetrate British airspace after 1940? How could the Germans drop a bomb on Manchester or London?

 
Originally posted by Cryptic

I agree. I think that London would be picked over Moscow as Stalin was less likely to be moved by the casualties.  Hitler's fantasies about nuking New York were probably due to the large Jewish population of the city.
 


More likely due to the fact that New York was the most important American city economically speaking and it was the cultural symbol of the United States.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 18:36
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Did the Germans have the ability to penetrate British airspace after 1940? How could the Germans drop a bomb on Manchester or London?
 
They had the ability in late 1944, but only in small numbers and using the best of everything (strategic priority). For example:
-Highly skilled mechanics and technicians get a small number of jet bombers in flying condition.
-Fuel and experienced crews are found (both becoming increasingly rare)
-The bombers go to Norway first, refuel and then fly to Britain. 
-The fact that by late 1944 the British on the verge of victory and the RAF's best were no longer manning radar stations would help as well.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

I still believe such a show of might would stop Soviet military advances dead in their tracks for a considerable amount of time. The Soviets would have to regroup, think about what had just happened, assess the situation and the probability of more such attacks, etc...
It might depend on the number of bombs the Germans have.  The Soviet military machine could absorb two or three "example" bombs. The same two or three bombs against western civilian targets would have a far greater impact.
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


More likely due to the fact that New York was the most important American city economically speaking and it was the cultural symbol of the United States.
Yes, those reasons are important as well. New York symbolized everything Hitler hated, including a cosmopolitan outlook.


Edited by Cryptic - 20-May-2010 at 18:50
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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 18:54
 
Originally posted by Tazjet


Why are Unranium based bombs easier to engineer?


With either Plutonium or Uranium the material needs to be forced together in a spherical shape quite quickly. It can't be stored in a sperical shape or it would trigger a nuclear reaction so the challenge of any bomb is to bring materials together as fast as possible to form a sphere.

With a Plutonium bomb you need to implode about 24 chunks of Plutonium simultaneously using ordinary explosive charges, but their detonation has to be precisely co-ordinated to work. The need to co-ordinate these explosions also allows one to create lots of little electronic relays all of which can be used as a fail safe cut out. It only takes one to fail and the bomb will not explode. That is why only Plutonium is used in military A-bombs. They can be made fail safe and they can survive shocks, accidental dropping and all sorts of mishaps without premature detonations.

Critical mass for Uranium enriched to 90% U235 (bomb grade "HEU") is about 50kg. The Hiroshima bomb was 60kg of HEU.

With a suitable tamper this mass can be reduced to around 16kg. Tamper is a material which blankets the bomb to reflect neutrons back in and stop the warhead physically blowing itself apart before full nuclear combustion is achieved. Without a tamper only 1/139th of the material would fission before the warhead would blow apart. A tamper would be something like lead, or beryllium but preferably just U238.

With HEU one can simply create two hemispheres and drive them together, or create a spherical shape missing a plug of U235 and shoot a plug of uranium milled to fit the cavity down a tube. This is called a gun and trigger mechanism. It is relatively simple to build a uranium bomb in a garage workshop if you have the fissile material.

The detonation does not require precise co-ordination of 24 or however many seperate charges, because it does not require the same co-ordinated implosion as plutonium requires.

The simplicity however also means it is vulnerable to shocks and jarring which could cause premature detonations.

These days it is worth noting that small traces of Thorium 232 are added to nuclear fuels to breed Uranium 232. This U232 sabotages any efforts by terrorists to use spent fuel from power generation as bomb material. It is near impossible to remove and high radioactive allowing authorities to easily trace stolen nuclear material by satelite surveilance.  

Dr Kurt Diebner in 1944 would have had little difficulty with sufficiently enriched uranium to construct a working nuclear weapon. the question remains whether he had sufficient HEU.


Once they had the fissionable materials, the allies still needed to spend a massive amount or recesources to develop a working bomb.  Also allied engineers were working in a peacetime environment and included the best minds from all over the world


USA took both paths to the bomb in the Manhatten Project. Oak Ridge, Tennessee was developed to enrich Uranium IIRC by gaseous diffusion, not centrifuges.

Hanaford became the home of a project to breed Plutonium with nuclear reactors. The other process was a Uranium bomb as dropped on Hiroshima. The Trinity test was intended to static test whether the Plutonium weapon could work. the Uranium bomb was a fall back option if Trinity failed. Trinity worked so a second Plutonium bomb, "Fat Man" was exploded over Nagasaki.

Why the manhatten project required so much effort and manpower was in part due to persuit of so many options, but also that the Americans firmly fixed their gaze on a Plutonium project. The physics required to properly detonate a Plutonium weapon are on a scale of a hundred times more complex than a simple uranium weapon. Co-ordinated Plutonium implosion eventually used Inra red light sensors to co-ordinate their implosions.

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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2010 at 19:09
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

  Did the Germans have the ability to penetrate British airspace after 1940? How could the Germans drop a bomb on Manchester or London?


The British Meteor jet and De Havilland's Mosquito were the two best high altitude interceptors available. They both topped out at around 32,000ft.

The He-177 A-5 could only manage 30,500ft, but the He-277 with four engines in their own nacelles (pods) could manage about 47,000 ft and the Dornier Do217K reached 53,000 ft. These were the options for bombing Britain in 1945.


Edited by Tazjet - 20-May-2010 at 19:09
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