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Was China the biggest economy of last 2000 years?

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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was China the biggest economy of last 2000 years?
    Posted: 08-Jan-2010 at 04:22
Hi Guys,

An American Nobel winner claims that by 2040 China will be the biggest economy on Earth and he also states that China had been the biggest economy on earth for the last two thousand years.

Here is the article: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/123000000000000

I came across an article by an Indian business man who claims that India has been the biggest economy for the last two thousand years. 

Who is right?


I done some researches and most sources claim that China was the biggest and most sophisticated economy on earth (even contemporary Romans didnt understand what the principle of inflation was). 

How about Ancient India?

Did Ancient Indians has clear identity as ancient Chinese (who called themselves Han Chinese in ancient time, distinguished themselves from "barbarians" (non-Chinese))? Did ancient India has as sophisticated economy as the more centralized state of ancient China?







Edited by Kids - 08-Jan-2010 at 04:51
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2010 at 13:06
Well it's nearly impossible to measure ancient economies, or medieval, or early modern... well any economy before 1800.
 
Very few attempts have been done to measure the GDP of ancient civilizations. Maddison did a highly controversial study of this matter. According to him, the first position in the podium is disputed by both India and China. In Wikipedia there is a more dettailed list composed of different sources but i prefer to read directly the sources before
 
 
 
I can't decide what of the two countries have had in the past a more advanced economy, it depend of the time i think. All in all in some aspects each country had advantages: China in centralized economy, there isn't a parallel to the scale of work of the chinese; India in international trade, in a scale that many global history books put India as the axis of the ancient world commerce.
 
 
 


Edited by Ikki - 30-Jan-2010 at 13:10
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2010 at 13:56
Well, first of all it is important to note that India and China had the largest economies because they had the largest populations.

With that said, I believe China was more advanced than India for much of history. In fact, China was more advanced than most, if not all, civilizations for the most part throughout history.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 09:46
What doesnt change the fact that those economies dindt even have good law and had to stay primitive while Romans invented even the background for buissnes law and the idea of "company" or "legal person"
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 13:03
Originally posted by Mosquito

What doesnt change the fact that those economies dindt even have good law and had to stay primitive while Romans invented even the background for buissnes law and the idea of "company" or "legal person"


Once again, you give the Romans too much credit. The Roman economy was based on the wealth of its Eastern provinces (Western Asia) which had developed civilizations and economies long before the Romans.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 14:40
doesnt matter, Romans had brains big enough to invent legal institutions that were helping in developement of buissnes
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 19:58

IMO, too soon to predict China's economic future.  China will need a substantial middle-class with strong economy not just along the coastal areas, but everywhere in China as a whole, and that is not happening yet.

As for history though, one must decide whether one is calculating it by region or by state.
Many conveniently equated historical China to the past imperial dynasties, often ignoring the fact that current PRC territories cover very different areas from historical imperial dynasties based on the Central Plains.
 
Same with India - historically, there was no unified Indian state similar in size as today's, so when talking about historical Indian economy, are they talking about areas which include today's Pakistan and Bangladesh, even parts of Afghanistan, but excluding many southern areas?
 
When talking about historical Roman economy, it is clear that it refers to the economy of the Roman republic/empire, with the constantly changing boundaries, but ruled from Rome.
 
The same cannot be said for historical China (which have separate states like Khitans, Tibetans, Jurchens etc., at various times), or India.
 
Comparison should be made apple to apple, and it is not viable for India and China.
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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 21:16
First off, there was never a single Indian state ran by a bureaucracy which extends to all of India until the 20th century. Even the brief periods of unification by Maurya, Delhi Sultanate, and Mughal were still feudatory in nature; they were just vassal states surrounding a central core state; more like an alliance under a hegemon than a single state. The other times India were united, such as under Gupta, only the north was under their control. China on the other hand, ever since the Qin was a highly centralized bureaucratic state which extends to most of "China proper", where the centers of population are, and hence economy. So as countries, than yes, China had the biggest economy for the most part.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by snowybeagle

As for history though, one must decide whether one is calculating it by region or by state.
Many conveniently equated historical China to the past imperial dynasties, often ignoring the fact that current PRC territories cover very different areas from historical imperial dynasties based on the Central Plains.
 
Same with India - historically, there was no unified Indian state similar in size as today's, so when talking about historical Indian economy, are they talking about areas which include today's Pakistan and Bangladesh, even parts of Afghanistan, but excluding many southern areas?
 
 
 
This is actually quite irrelevant. The territories outside of China proper are scarsely populated, and never made up a significant share of China's population or its economy, while northern India and Southern India often had equal shares of the Indian population.
 
 
Originally posted by snowybeagle

When talking about historical Roman economy, it is clear that it refers to the economy of the Roman republic/empire, with the constantly changing boundaries, but ruled from Rome.
 
The same cannot be said for historical China (which have separate states like Khitans, Tibetans, Jurchens etc., at various times), or India.
 
Comparison should be made apple to apple, and it is not viable for India and China.
 
 
 
Tibetans and Jurchens had a nomadic economy and a population of a mere few million, they are a negligible share of China's economy. In fact the Tibetans probably had less people than Vietnam, which was more often than not, under the control of various Chinese dynasties.
 
 
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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 21:17
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Well, first of all it is important to note that India and China had the largest economies because they had the largest populations.

With that said, I believe China was more advanced than India for much of history. In fact, China was more advanced than most, if not all, civilizations for the most part throughout history.
 
Have you ever studied Chinese legal tradition? The Qin law was in every way as sophisticated as the Roman law.
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  Quote Tazjet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2010 at 02:36
I think Ancient Rome had a pretty powerful economy for a few hundred years and then the British for 300 years from the time of Elizabeth 1st. China was pretty xenophobic and hardly traded outside it's own borders.

I think the mark of a big economy is how widely it trades and even beyond it's own borders. Also another factor is a uniform set of trading rules throughout that territory.

Actually even the mongols had a bigger trading territory in their day


Edited by Tazjet - 22-May-2010 at 02:37
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2010 at 06:29
Originally posted by Tazjet

 
I think the mark of a big economy is how widely it trades and even beyond it's own borders. Also another factor is a uniform set of trading rules throughout that territory.
The Chinese had very uniform trading rules and administrative rules in China proper. Rules in Vietnam and Korea were more localized. Though the Chinese did not trade outside their territory, China is a huge and varied land.
 
I think that it is safe to say that China had a huge economy in their glory days.
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2010 at 09:36
"China was pretty xenophobic and hardly traded outside it's own borders."


Less so because of actual xenephobia but more the mentality of the Middle Kingdom and the place it occupied in the natural order of things. Tang Dynasty China had massive trade links into Central Asia and the Middle East as well as SE Asia.
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2010 at 09:41
Originally posted by honeybee

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Well, first of all it is important to note that India and China had the largest economies because they had the largest populations.

With that said, I believe China was more advanced than India for much of history. In fact, China was more advanced than most, if not all, civilizations for the most part throughout history.
 
Have you ever studied Chinese legal tradition? The Qin law was in every way as sophisticated as the Roman law.


I think you meant to quote Mosquito, not me. I actually agree with you. People in the west tend to give the Roman Empire way too much credit.

Originally posted by Mosquito

What doesnt change the fact that those economies dindt even have good law and had to stay primitive while Romans invented even the background for buissnes law and the idea of "company" or "legal person"


Originally posted by Mosquito

doesnt matter, Romans had brains big enough to invent legal institutions that were helping in developement of buissnes


 


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 22-May-2010 at 09:42
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2010 at 23:25
it seems confusing... It's about beeing biggest in terms of size, ori biggest in terms of "sophistication"?
as far as I know (Maddison Angus' works) China dominated the world the most time of human history in terms of size of economy (sophistication too, probably). They lost for some few centuries when western europe took the lead, but such a minor and diluted demographical entity as "the west" can't keep for long that unnatural position of preeminence. And indeed, that is quickly changing, and our children will certainly live in a world where far eastern economy, science and military power will dominate all the rest of the world. Hopefully for the better, because the west failed in many, even too many, respects...
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2010 at 23:46
<<Once again, you give the Romans too much credit. The Roman economy was based on the wealth of its Eastern provinces (Western Asia) which had developed civilizations and economies long before the Romans. >>
 
Romans prospered by exploiting western asia and northern africa (and many other regions indeed!) for agricultural goods, but that's not so directly linked to these regions having been populated by "developped economies or civilizations". You know that is fact of reality that in satrapies, economy might go for some time very, very well, but that's by no means a lasting model; romans' merits, if there is such a notion as a merit of an invading army, are in the fact that organized a political system with more rights and liberties than in competting eastern empires; when arabs conquered western asia from "romans" (byzantine), they kept their system of administration and the fiscal structure, and that's not for no reason! 
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2010 at 23:44

This "upper part of the earth" is very much responsible for the recent modernization of China, so this kind of aprehension about western intentions concerning China is just part of some mad conspiration theories, in my opinion. Even if somone would strive hard to block chinese ascension, now there is nothing effective to be done in order to stop this historical process. It is true that a rising China will pose some threats to US or Japan, or to the West in general (but these threats are of the same nature as the reciprocal threats that Japan, US and EU pose one to the other), but "a falling China" makes things worse, it makes them frightening.

In my opinion the world and the West both will survive under a chinese hegemony, much more dangerous in my view is the reluctance of eastern europe (russia, ucraine, but other countries in the region too) and the middle east (and the muslim world) to evolve socially from where now these political entities are. These areas are unstable politically, economically and from the social point of view these political entities are now turned more toward the middle age than toward the future.  
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 16:10
For the time of its existence, the Roman Empire was the world's largest economy. It certainly was the largest economic power of the West until the Industrial Revolution according to Goldsmith:

In terms of settled territory the early Roman empire with about 3.3 km2 was
the largest political, economic and monetary unit in the Western world until it
was overtaken by the expansion of the United States and of the Russian empire
in the mid-19th century. With about 55 million inhabitants it was more populous
than any western country until, again, the mid-19th century, equalling even the
present population of the large European nation-states-France, Germany, Great
Britain and Italy; and probably was not surpassed by its only two competitors,
the Chinese empire and the less durable empires that arose from time to time in
the In Han peninsula, until about AD 1000. Finally, in terms of real national
produ. t, a comparison which is much more difficult to make, the Roman empire
with a national product of, as will be shown below, slightly over 20 billion
sesterces (HS), equal to about 1,700 t of gold, probably surpassed any Western
economy until the early 19th century. On all three tests, then, the early Roman
empire was the largest Western economic unit for nearly two millennia.


Interestingly, its standard of living around 300 AD was higher than China's in the 1930s:

As the standard of living in Diocletian's time is likely to have been below that of the
early Empire, expenditures per adult should have been above 200 IU which compares with 370 IU
per occupied person in Italy in 1893, 163 IU in Brazil in 1928, 138 IU in China in 1933 and 132 IU
in India in 1867/68.


Source: Raymond Goldsmith (1984): An Estimate of the Size and Structure of the National Product of the Early Roman Empire“, Review of Income and Wealth, vol. 30, no. 3, September, pp. 263-288

However, since the Roman economy has been for some time now in the process of a favourable reevaluation by modern scholars, the gap to Han China was likely to be even larger than Goldsmith projected.
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  Quote ting Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 01:08
well, first of all, in most of its history, india peninsula was not politically united, while china was.
so, where was "india" 2000 years ago?
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  Quote ting Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 01:17

what i can say is, peasants in china were as poor as peasants in india or europe until the industry revolution, so it really dosen't matter which one had the biggest economy

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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 02:54
Originally posted by ting

well, first of all, in most of its history, india peninsula was not politically united, while china was.
so, where was "india" 2000 years ago?


True, but on the other hand India had been unified by the Maurya earlier than China was by the Qin.


Edited by Gun Powder Ma - 11-Jun-2010 at 02:56
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