Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Ancient Persian Numerals, better than modern one!

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6217
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Persian Numerals, better than modern one!
    Posted: 07-Jan-2010 at 12:12
Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: Ancient Banking System, "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 
Back to Top
marieshi View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 27-Feb-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
  Quote marieshi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 18:24
How can you write that? I can't tell there is much difference.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 19:10
I would prefer to consider the system shown above as a nightmare! One mis cue with the pen, and all is kaput!

So, basically all is a "push!"
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6217
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 08:33

These numerals are not used in the modern times but it doesn't seem to be difficult to write them, the important thing is that it is written from the right to the left but read from left to right (for example look at 99 = 90 + 9), so it can be very easy to write these numbers in the Middle Persian, Arabic, Hebrew and other scripts which are written from right to left.

Back to Top
TheGreatSimba View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 22-Nov-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1152
  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 13:08
Interesting post. Are there any examples of these numbers being used in 20th century Qajar documents that you can post here. I assumed they were using arabic numerals.
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2010 at 20:14
<<It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals>>
 
well, I don't know, maybe when persians change their arabic script for a new and more adapted for a language rich in vowels, and when chinese change their thousand-signs script for a more simple one, I promise to look intro your new/old numeral system. LOL
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2010 at 20:18
And no offence, but in my view is a bad idea to take wikipedia as valide sourse of information... Please give us a more reliable, unbiased, competent and serious encylopaedia/book.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6217
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2010 at 01:13
Originally posted by Nurica

And no offence, but in my view is a bad idea to take wikipedia as valide sourse of information... Please give us a more reliable, unbiased, competent and serious encylopaedia/book.
 
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and is certainly better than Britannica, Encarta and several other American and non-American encyclopedias which want to impose their own false knowledge of history and other sciences onto the other people of the world, anyway the important thing about an article is its references, not its website or even author.
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2010 at 10:41
<<Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and is certainly better than Britannica, Encarta and several other American and non-American encyclopedias which want to impose their own false knowledge of history and other sciences onto the other people of the world, anyway the important thing about an article is its references, not its website or even author.>>
 
Oh my friend, when I told you that here we deal with a bunch of frustrated middle estearners, you refused to admit it; Tongue telling me that an "encyclopedia" where any obsessed idiot can put the excrements of his mind on any subject, and where agreement about "reality" and truth is voted by a small gang of nonspecialists is "better" than an encyclopedia (no matter the nationality of authors!) where scientific intersubjectivity still function, you show me that not only your will here is simply to alter and rewrite the history in order to comply your values, it tells me that you just don't get what science is all about! But no wonder that, when iranian president denies Holocaust... An advice: abandon the exacerbated nationalism (or put better "religionalism"), if you want really to understand history as a science and not as a hobby of some maniacs...
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6217
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2010 at 12:11
There has been always this problem that some people think they know more than others or they are wise and all knowing but other ones are idiots, however I myself believe the Iranian president that you mentioned is among the idiots but he has a PhD and claims to be an all knowing scientist, so he can deny Holocaust, can't he? Or what about the famous English writer David Irving the author of 30 books on history of World War II? Is he also an idiot, like other Holocaust deniers?
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2010 at 11:36

<<There has been always this problem that some people think they know more than others or they are wise and all knowing but other ones are idiots, however I myself believe the Iranian president that you mentioned is among the idiots but he has a PhD and claims to be an all knowing scientist, so he can deny Holocaust, can't he?>>

 

Of course he can, but that makes his opinion in no way a scientific one; first, probably he’s not a historian, so no expertise in this area; second, marginal ideas in science existed, exist and will exist; for anyone minimally smart, these are less believable though: anytime is better to follow the majority opinion of experts than fringe one, even when we have to admit that such majority opinions can prove later to be false or at least partially false.

 

<<Or what about the famous English writer David Irving the author of 30 books on history of World War II? Is he also an idiot, like other Holocaust deniers?>>

 

You have the good receipt to keep yourself far from ridiculous in what I’ve said above. What is to deny about holocaust? That it wasn’t 6 millions but 2? For any lucid individual, that’s futile! It makes nazism not an inch less horrible! Note that I’m a guy that keeps a site criticising the jews, their religion, and their community leaders propensity to play the profiteer with any occasion, holocaust memory included.

Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2010 at 12:22
With appropriate evidence one may argue for anything. The problem with Holocaust denail is that the argument is just very weak. One does not have to be an idiot, history like many other things is peer reviewed, arguments and notions are challenged to substansiate their validity. However un like a science its all about interpretation, there are no clear black and white issues. Nothing can becategorically proven. So things like Irvine denying the holocaust is a valid argument, his evidence is just unconvinving and so is not accepeted as mainstream.


Nurcia the Chinese have beeb revising, refining and simplifying their script for hundreds of years, evens more so since 1949.

But anyway.....back to persian numerals.


Surely the big let down is their clumsiness for doing arithmatic, and isnt that neccessarily the main point if numerals?
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 10:41

I konw pretty well the changes chinese made in their picto- or ideogramms, but that makes their script not less ideographic and accordingly complicated. I know also the virtues of this kind of script in chinese case, but once again, that makes their culture not less difficult to explore due to the complexity of their script (and (tonal) language, btw). Concerning Irving, I have nothing to dispute in what you have said above DW, even if you seems to think otherwise about that. As for persian nummeral system, one have to ask the question: why the roman system was abandoned? To me it seems that this persian system in principle is similar to the roman one and is suffering of the same drawbacks. From a certain point of societal evolution, any system that lacks positonal notation is condamned to be replaced.

Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 18:31
essentially the mat doesnt add up


Sorry, that is anatrocious pun.
Back to Top
shoaib View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote shoaib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2015 at 08:10
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: Ancient Banking System, "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 
Back to Top
shoaib View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 12-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote shoaib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2015 at 08:12
hi buddy, where did you get these digits or numerals , i need all of them, please do reply
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: Ancient Banking System, "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14601
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2016 at 02:51
There is no zero sign in ancient Persian numerical system.Hmm...interesting.Can you tell us more about it Cyrus.Hope you have researched this till now..
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.