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Maces and flails

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Maces and flails
    Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 23:01
I just finished a long search on the battle tactics with the use of maces and flails, nothing!

So could anyone tell me how they would be used in battle? Or were they used in small group confrontations?

As far as time period goes,  the period of the four hundreds to the fourteenth century.

Thanks

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 05:00
i dont even know that someone EVER has used maces or flails in battles...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 09:05

I know about the following things:

Knights would use maces on horseback sometimes

Priests would use a blunt mace or flail for defence because they were not allowed to draw blood.

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  Quote Rebelsoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 09:25

The use of a club-like weapon wasn't really a novelty - it's the first weapon of documented use anyway

During the middle ages, a mace or flail would be the second or (usually) third weapon of many mounted warrior and especially western knights and any Byzantine cavalry, allthough all cultures (even steppe nomads) were using them.

Especially those who had to face armored enemies: penetrating an armour (especially plate) with a lance or sword, could be a tricky task (one would need to find the weak spots in the armor), while a mace would deliver the full force of the blow to the body covered by the metal gear and you didn't even have to aim for a specific part (even though the head was also the best target for such a blow).

At the same time, it was a handy weapon, requiring little or no skill and expertise to basically weild it (unlike a sword, which needed years of training and practice) and thus was easy to use even for part time soldiers. Also, it especially favored by physicaly able (=strong) individuals, those could deliver really devastating blows.

In battle, such a weapon (mace) would be used usually in melee, after the initial charge when the lance-kontos-spear was broken. Many fighters would initially use the sword, but in horseback melee sometimes a more handy and easy-to-weild weapon like the mace is preferable, so they'd draw that first.

Regarding the flail, I've never really heard about wide use of it in the battlefield. I know it was quite popular in unmounted duels, but it never seemed to be very popular in regular battlefield. Could be wrong though, someone who knows more about medieval weaponry than I do, could enlighten us.



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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 09:38

maybe Franks used 'em. but about the maces, infantry used them aswell?

and i think few soldiers used mace as a ranged weapon, throwed it with all strenght against the enemy

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 09:47

Here is what Stoffel(an Heaven Games moderator) could tell me about maces and flails:

They were never used at "units." It was simply a weapon that a person used. Chances are they probably weren't that popular.

The flail takes a bit of practice to use without killing or maiming yourself, and developed from agricultural grain flails. I could only hazard a guess that people who worked with them were the ones who took them to battle, with more elaborate types being used by those who trained with it.

The mace developed from the club which is thousands of years old. Most commoners probably didnt use it because the opponents they were facing werent heavily armoured, with the burgess later on through the 14th century probably making it more common. The knight would have used it as a secondary weapon earlier on, then becoming a more primary weapon as the strength of armour increased.

Of course there were some groups that did use flails as thier primary weapon, such as the Hussites, but they were used like polearms, on long staffs. Two handed maces, like morgensterns, were used the same way, probably behind the protection provided by thier circled wagon train.

So from what I have heard flails were not very popular and probably were no because of the need of training.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 09:54
 now i remember - Few Estonians used them against Germans for it easily (better than sword) penetrated armour and didn't break for sword could break if hit against armour.The weapon was called - krp
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 11:11
Flails were a "national weapon" of Hussities..
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 12:39
now, can you explain me who were Hussities??? Really, i have no idea who you aree talking about.
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 12:44
Look article on our website:
http://www.allempires.com/articles/hussite/hussite1.htm


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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 12:53

so Czechs after 1450...

logical that flails were national weapons...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 12:58

Wow

That was very interesting!

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 13:03
In fact this website contains much more articles and this is not common knowledge of the members of our forum 

http://www.allempires.com/


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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 13:22
isn't it...???... welll i knew it contains much but i havenmt got a chance to look there.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 14:12

Originally posted by TJK

Flails were a "national weapon" of Hussities..

yes, it was their favoured melee weapon, but others used it occasionally too.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 15:01

Alot Islamic cavalry used them as well.  Really a very effective weapon as it negates the effects of armor more than most melee weapons do.

 

DIdnt Korean cavalry use flails too? Or was that an obscure somethng else?

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 15:10
Yea...flails were really popular among Korean Calvalry men from around the Josun dynasty...

http://www.parandeul.co.kr/gyong_pkgtours.htm
Look for Pyon Gon and Masang Pyon Gon, they are flail methods...
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 15:35
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by TJK

Flails were a "national weapon" of Hussities..

yes, it was their favoured melee weapon, but others used it occasionally too.

Sure, all the peasent have used very "simple " weapon during rebellions (like flails, scythes, axes etc) , but I think it was only Hussities who have worked up the tactical way of use the flails...

The flailmens in Hussite army have been formed in the second line  after the spear- or pike-mens, but in fact as the using of flail have required quite big experience frequently the falilmens have been repleaced by soldiers equipped with scyths or halberds.. however during the defence of the tabor falilemens were most often using unit - they were assign to eliminate the enemy knights who have (rarely) enter the tabor. As flailmens were rather designed for the some kind of duels their armour was much better then the other hussite infantry mens. 

  

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 15:54

completely agree except for the armour thing...I ahve read the exact opposite, they were not armoured at all for speed and since they were peasants, they could no tafford armor (except helmets)

 

regarding mace: from what i gathered, the mace was used as sort of honorary weapon, denoting rank etc...I also read that the early Cossacks had the mace as symbol of their freedom...



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 16:02
Im not sure about english meaning of the word flail. Is that the same as Morningstar or morgenstern?
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