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Socrates

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Poll Question: Socrates
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6 [28.57%]
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opuslola View Drop Down
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Socrates
    Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 18:06
It just seems funny that a few chronologists from the 17th century C.E. or even earlier, also set up time-lines, which were later updated in the 19th century, or well before anyone had ever thought about 14C.

But, strangely, when this so called new science first came out, its dates differed with the currently accepted time line, which in some cases was considered by historians to be correct to within a few years in either direction, the 14C dates seemed to point to differences of numerous years, however.

So, respectible historians and archaeologists poo-pooed this science as worthless, but non-the-less, the 14C crowd again began to skew their results, and suddenly the 14C dates started to agree with the dates already set into stone by the historians, etc..

It was basically, only when material from Malta was 14C tested, and found to be older than the Egyptian material, that the old powers, were set upon thier behinds in wonder. That they had begun to give tacit approval to various 14C tests that came closer to the old accepted dates. And via this tacit approval, the dates of Malta, then became accepted, which gave the 14C crowd something to crow about.

Since all of this stuff began, the 14C crowd has constantly skewed and changed their testing proceedures, at the whim of dismay from the rulers and movers and shakers of the accepted time-line.

You may even note that in but a few cases, the time-lines that existed before 14C testing, has changed but very little since the 14C crowd also found reliable supporters, who revelled in a new science that would support their formally un-supported views of the past.

I shall halt my rant here since I feel I have said quite enough already.

Regards,

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:22
Originally posted by Deathless


Originally posted by opuslola

I am so glad that you were able to enjoy my above comment! Perhaps you will enjoy a lot more of them?

Regards,
How many experience points do I get if I defeat a troll like you?? LOLIn all seriousness, you were joking in your previous post?


LOL - now be nice!!
Plato is a major source but we also have

A.    Aristophanes the clouds but a distorted due to the demands of comedy

B.    Historian Xenophon- provided memorabilia- from direct contact W/ Socrates. – provides some verbatim extracts from his trial.

Plato’ work called the dialogue – records conversation between him and Socrates- where Socrates is a dominates the conversation.

Divided into three groups: Early, middle and late dialogues

Socrates appears in most dialogues but Plato’s views predominate in middle and late dialogues. Plato saw Socrates as a hero –

He is presented as someone who live for philosophy itself, searching for the truth w/o any regard for material gain, in the end dying for his beliefs.

From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week.



Edited by eaglecap - 21-Mar-2011 at 20:22
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:30
Originally posted by opuslola

I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination? Please note this sentence from Wikipedia;
"..the 'real' Socrates, like many of the other Ancient philosophers, remains at best enigmatic and at worst unknown."

You see, there exists no real evidence of his existance other than the word of one "Plato!"
So, I will nominate the personages who may or may not have been "Plato!"


I would not consider Wikipedia a good source but you have a right to whatever theory you want to believe Ron.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:36
''From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week''
 
 
I might sneak in and audit that one EC..... cuz last I recall the ole guy drank hemlock cuz the city fathers didn't like him anymore....ya I know..... been out of touch with that stuff for 40 years...no excuse.Embarrassed
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:49
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

''From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week''


 

 

I might sneak in and audit that one EC..... cuz last I recall the ole guy drank hemlock cuz the city fathers didn't like him anymore....ya I know..... been out of touch with that stuff for 40 years...no excuse.Embarrassed


He was accused of corrupting the youth- a trumped up charge!
Also showing disrespect to the gods.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:54
LOLOh hell...I could have been charged with that when I was 15....up on the Llano. For that matter any current corrupt US poli, of any agenda, could be as well.Wink 
 
Nice to chat with you again.
 
CV
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2011 at 01:46
I am editing to better tie my comment with what others said.  I would not say questioning the gods is a trumped up charge, and Socrates most certainly questioned the gods.   In the past we would call talk like this heresy and the church had its way of dealing with heretics!   In modern times we have fundamentalist Muslims acting upon religious notions, in dramatic ways.   We might want to be appreciative of what our forefathers achieved when they created a nation of religious freedom with protected freedom of speech.  I would say, Socrates, gave his life for this cause.   The ultimate sacrifice for truth, so the gods must love him.  

I consider Socrates' arguments very important to the US culture we are forgetting.   He strongly influenced education in the US and our forgotten understanding of morality.   He offered us something better than superstition, and I prefer his offering to religion.   Surely he did not stand alone in turning us from superstition to reason, but through Plato, he is a major player in this turn, and this makes him essential to the understanding of democracy.   If it were not for Plato, Socrates would have died with his body, and maybe we never would have experimented with democracy- rule by reason, because the line of reasoning for it would have been lost.  


Edited by Athena - 22-Mar-2011 at 12:48
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2011 at 16:45
Originally posted by Athena


I am editing to better tie my comment with what others said.  I would not say questioning the gods is a trumped up charge, and Socrates most certainly questioned the gods.   In the past we would call talk like this heresy and the church had its way of dealing with heretics!   In modern times we have fundamentalist Muslims acting upon religious notions, in dramatic ways.   We might want to be appreciative of what our forefathers achieved when they created a nation of religious freedom with protected freedom of speech.  I would say, Socrates, gave his life for this cause.   The ultimate sacrifice for truth, so the gods must love him.   I consider Socrates' arguments very important to the US culture we are forgetting.   He strongly influenced education in the US and our forgotten understanding of morality.   He offered us something better than superstition, and I prefer his offering to religion.   Surely he did not stand alone in turning us from superstition to reason, but through Plato, he is a major player in this turn, and this makes him essential to the understanding of democracy.   If it were not for Plato, Socrates would have died with his body, and maybe we never would have experimented with democracy- rule by reason, because the line of reasoning for it would have been lost.  

that is possible


Many scholars believe the charges were false and mainly used for political motivation. The source I have used is from Oxford University Press. But, we were not there so all anyone can do is speculate.

Comparing Islam to this scenario is like comparing apples to onions; although, it is a possible theory.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2011 at 11:41
Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  
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  Quote CyberRanger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 00:16

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 15:00
Originally posted by CyberRanger

<FONT size=3 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.



good point Ranger !! I admire Aristotle much more than Socrates for Plato.

I still find Plato's beliefs about forms tooooo abstract. Especially when it relates to the perfect society.

I need to bring up Thucydides in another thread sometime. I really admire his writings about the Peloponnesian War.
Tonights lecture is on that topic so it will be fun-
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 15:01
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

LOLOh hell...I could have been charged with that when I was 15....up on the Llano. For that matter any current corrupt US poli, of any agenda, could be as well.Wink 
 

Nice to chat with you again.

 

CV


many thanks -
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 16:03
Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  
Are you suggesting we move on to poisoning if a ban isn't enough? LOL
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  Quote Galleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 22:57
Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:27
Originally posted by unclefred

Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  
Are you suggesting we move on to poisoning if a ban isn't enough? LOL


Absolutely not.  I am on the side of stating what we believe is true and correct, no matter how much one is harassed or attacked, or how unpopular doing so, makes a person.    It is better to give one life for truth, then to surrender it to a lie (go along with the crowd to be accepted by them, even though they live by a lie).   The individual ego is insignificant to the whole, and choosing ones own ego above the good of all, is to separate self from we might call God or Tao.  But when we devote ourselves to truth, regardless of what others may of think of us, we can die in peace secure in being one with the oneness.   On the other hand, putting ego needs first, is choosing separation from the oneness.   In biblical terms, we refer to this as sin and a fall, and say Satan is a liar.   Clearly Socrates felt secure in his choice when he gave his life for the freedom to speak truth.  
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:37
Originally posted by Galleon

Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile


The culture of Athens established by those preserved in the documents, generates greatness.  When this forgotten civilization was rediscovered, they were believed to a society of geniuses.  For this reason, the US imitated their education for well rounded individual growth.  It tears my heart knowing this education was replaced by Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We can not realize our human potential, following the path of our enemy.   But we can destroy the world with our weapons.  Big smile  That is exactly what Zeus feared!  that we would develop technology and forget the gods.  We have come to that day.   We are technologically smart, but lack the wisdom to use this technology.   

I think it was necessary to follow this path of rapid technological development, but pray daily that we recover our balance, and return public education to its original purpose of actualizing the dream of democracy with liberty and justice for all.  


Edited by Athena - 13-Apr-2011 at 11:39
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  Quote Galleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:40
Originally posted by Athena

Originally posted by Galleon

Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile


The culture of Athens established by those preserved in the documents, generates greatness.  When this forgotten civilization was rediscovered, they were believed to a society of geniuses.  For this reason, the US imitated their education for well rounded individual growth.  It tears my heart knowing this education was replaced by Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We can not realize our human potential, following the path of our enemy.   But we can destroy the world with our weapons.  Big smile  That is exactly what Zeus feared!  that we would develop technology and forget the gods.  We have come to that day.   We are technologically smart, but lack the wisdom to use this technology.   

I think it was necessary to follow this path of rapid technological development, but pray daily that we recover our balance, and return public education to its original purpose of actualizing the dream of democracy with liberty and justice for all.  
I agree, Athena. Good point.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2011 at 17:30
For those of you who hold a very tight grip on our currently held chronology, as well as the placement of Plato, and his so called "neo-Platonists", then I will refer you to this site, and its very mind opening first few paragraphs,;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Thus the above sites says or asserts;

"Neoplatonism (also called Neo-Platonism) is the modern term for a school of religious and mystical philosophy that took shape in the 3rd century AD, based on the teachings of Plato and earlier Platonists, with its earliest contributor believed to be Plotinus, and his teacher Ammonius Saccas. Neoplatonists would have considered themselves simply Platonists, and the modern distinction is due to the perception that their philosophy contained sufficiently unique interpretations of Plato to make it substantially different from what Plato wrote and believed. [1] Neoplatonism attempted to reconcile the nascent Christian doctrine with the classical philosophies of Greek and Roman society.

The Neoplatonism of Plotinus and Porphyry has been referred to as in fact being orthodox Platonic philosophy by scholars like John D. Turner. This distinction provides a contrast with later movements of Neoplatonism, such as those of Iamblichus and Proclus, which embraced magical practices or theurgy as part of the soul's development in the process of the soul's return to the Source. Possibly Plotinus was motivated to clarify some of the traditions in the teachings of Plato that had been misrepresented before Iamblichus (see Neoplatonism and Gnosticism).

Neoplatonism took definitive shape with the philosopher Plotinus, who claimed to have received his teachings from Ammonius Saccas, a philosopher in Alexandria.[2] Plotinus was also influenced by Alexander of Aphrodisias and Numenius of Apamea. Plotinus's student Porphyry assembled his teachings into the six sets of nine tractates, or Enneads. Subsequent Neoplatonic philosophers included Iamblichus, Hypatia of Alexandria, Hierocles of Alexandria, Proclus (by far the most influential of later Neoplatonists), Damascius (last head of Neoplatonist School at Athens), Olympiodorus the Younger, and Simplicius of Cilicia.

Thinkers from the Neoplatonic school cross-pollinated with the thinkers of other intellectual schools. For instance, certain strands of Neoplatonism influenced Christian thinkers (such as Augustine, Boethius, John Scotus Eriugena, and Bonaventure),[3] while Christian thought influenced (and sometimes converted) Neoplatonic philosophers (such as Dionysius the Areopagite).[4][5] In the Middle Ages Neoplatonistic arguments were taken seriously in the thought of medieval Islamic and Jewish thinkers such as al-Farabi and Moses Maimonides,[6] and experienced a revival in the Renaissance with the acquisition and translation of Greek and Arabic Neoplatonic texts."

In reality all you have to consider, with a somwhat open mind, is the first sentence above, where we can read;

"Neoplatonism (also called Neo-Platonism) is the modern term for a school of religious and mystical philosophy that took shape in the 3rd century AD, based on the teachings of Plato and earlier Platonists, with its earliest contributor believed to be Plotinus, and his teacher Ammonius Saccas."

So, from the above we see one strange statement, which is that Plotinus, was reportedly a student of one Ammonius Saccas!"

Perhaps someone can give us a realistic meaning to the first name above which is today spelled as "Ammonius?", or perhaps even provide a meaning for the word "Ammon?" But, the even stranger part is the similarity of the last name "Saccas", as it might well be compared to the name of the teacher of "Plato", who we are told was "Socrates!"

Could "Saccas" be but another variation of "Socrates?"

Could it be but a co-incidence that the two "teachers" held such similar names? Well maybe, but is it also merely a co-incidence that the "student" also has such similar names? That is "Plotinus" versus "Plato?", or even later in time or rather modern chronology, the last "neo-platonist's", who was called or named "Pletho?"

Just whom was the teacher of "Pletho?"

For a lot more information, I would suggest you look for my postings aout the above subject in the "Alternative History" section, or here;

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28856

Regards,






Edited by opuslola - 02-May-2011 at 14:04
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2011 at 18:37
I have noticed that no one has responded to my last posting, concerning the teacher of Plotinus being named Saccas, and not Socrates! Is it because some of you now have doubts?

How about you "Thomas", do you really have doubts?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 12-May-2011 at 18:40
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2011 at 20:15
Originally posted by opuslola

I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination?

Is there anything you know of that might not? LOL
 


What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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