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America’s what one country can do and not do policy

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  Quote Herodotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: America’s what one country can do and not do policy
    Posted: 14-May-2005 at 20:22

Originally posted by Genghis

 

That ruling is also absurd, one depleted uranium shell can only destroy one tank, hardly a weapon of mass destruction.  And any the depleted uranium in those shells doesn't under go fission on impact and have a half-life of about 6 billion years which makes them extremely radiologically inactive (in fact, inside an Abrams tank filled with DU shells, the radiation is less than outside because the armor stops cosmic background radiation thus the radiation caused by a full load of DU shells is less than normal background radiation).  The only reason depleted uranium is used and not other substances is because its so dense and fairly plentiful from American nuclear power plants.  The Uranium in them is also about as toxic as certain propellants and explosives in other weapons of war.

Actually, DU is extremely hazardous. On impact it vaporizes to some degree, releasing toxic particles in the same way as a small dirty bomb. What is known as Gulf War Syndrome is caused by this material in the air, and has effected hundreds of thousands of American veterans, rendering many of them handicapped and putting them on disability. It is estimated that over 500k Iraqi deaths will result from DU exposure during the Gulf War. The toxins are also responsible for thousands of birth defects in both Iraqis and Americans: in this condition children are often born without eyes.

Would I consider it a WMD, probably. Should the U.S be barred from using it, absolutely not. It would likely be a good policy to phase out its use, considering the toll on American servicemen, but might is right, and if the nation wishes to continue using it, so be it.



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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2005 at 05:26

yi yi zhi yi - use a barbarian to control another barbarian

tu si gou peng - when the rabbit hunting is over, cook the hunting dog

so they raised Saddam then attacked him later.. they're just good students of Chinese wisdom..

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  Quote Vamun Tianshu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2005 at 20:40
However,though I disagree with some of America's past and present problems,especially when constant times in school when my teachers told me America always did good,I did some research and proved them wrong.Still,I love this country,just not some of its policies.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2005 at 20:34
Originally posted by Vamun Tianshu

America overthrew my father's homeland government,which was a democracy,didn't you know?The Dominican Republic was a democratic government by president Juan Bosch,and then,Americans interfered and Juan was exiled,and then the Dominican Civil War started in 1965.The Americans supported the pro-dictatorial leader.

In the mid 20th Century,the Dominican Republic went to Civil War.After the rule of military leader Rafael Leonidas Trujillo,Juan Bosch was overthrown by a US coup in 1963.This sparked the Dominican Civil War.Again,the US intervenes,and Joaquin Balaguer establishes rule.Bosch was actually a democratically elected President,and the US ruined it for DR.He was opposed to Rafael's tyrannical,dictatoral ways,and was therefore exiled in 1937.After Rafael was assasinated,Bosch returned and was elected president.However,US coup desposed of his position.The military then revolted in this outrage,and went to war with the Junta.The US then intervened,and went against the Military.They helped the Junta,and established Joaquin's ruling.The weird thing is,the US put Joaquin in ruling,and he was a protege of Dictator Rafael.

I'm well aware, I've seen that on the History Channel a bunch of times and read about it for class.

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  Quote Vamun Tianshu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2005 at 20:31

America overthrew my father's homeland government,which was a democracy,didn't you know?The Dominican Republic was a democratic government by president Juan Bosch,and then,Americans interfered and Juan was exiled,and then the Dominican Civil War started in 1965.The Americans supported the pro-dictatorial leader.

In the mid 20th Century,the Dominican Republic went to Civil War.After the rule of military leader Rafael Leonidas Trujillo,Juan Bosch was overthrown by a US coup in 1963.This sparked the Dominican Civil War.Again,the US intervenes,and Joaquin Balaguer establishes rule.Bosch was actually a democratically elected President,and the US ruined it for DR.He was opposed to Rafael's tyrannical,dictatoral ways,and was therefore exiled in 1937.After Rafael was assasinated,Bosch returned and was elected president.However,US coup desposed of his position.The military then revolted in this outrage,and went to war with the Junta.The US then intervened,and went against the Military.They helped the Junta,and established Joaquin's ruling.The weird thing is,the US put Joaquin in ruling,and he was a protege of Dictator Rafael.


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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 22:04
Originally posted by melissini

Furthermore Cluster Bombs are also weapons of mass destruction according to the UN and still they are used everywere by America.  These weapons can't be trusted, along with the other weapons of mass destruction such as nuclear, biological etc, in the hand of ANYONE!  Be it american or what not.  And last time i checked, China, North Korea, Pakistan, India, and a number of other countries all have these weapons.  Are they deemed responsible enough?  Who judges these things?  America shouldn't be a hypocrite, tell the truth.  No weapons of mass destruction for anyone. 

Thank you.

You can't be serious as to think we should get rid of WMD.  No country is going to put this genie back into its bottle.  If there is such an agreement, the benefits of cheating are endless.

And according to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty articles I, II, and III, the Iranians have to justify to us that they are not going to use their nuclear technology for purposes that would undermine the nonproliferation effort, as stated below:

Article I

Each nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to transfer to any recipient whatsoever nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; and not in any way to assist, encourage, or induce any non-nuclear weapon State to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices, or control over such weapons or explosive devices.

Article II

Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or of control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; not to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices; and not to seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Article III

1. Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes to accept safeguards, as set forth in an agreement to be negotiated and concluded with the International Atomic Energy Agency in accordance with the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Agencys safeguards system, for the exclusive purpose of verification of the fulfillment of its obligations assumed under this Treaty with a view to preventing diversion of nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. Procedures for the safeguards required by this article shall be followed with respect to source or special fissionable material whether it is being produced, processed or used in any principal nuclear facility or is outside any such facility. The safeguards required by this article shall be applied to all source or special fissionable material in all peaceful nuclear activities within the territory of such State, under its jurisdiction, or carried out under its control anywhere.

2. Each State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to provide: (a) source or special fissionable material, or (b) equipment or material especially designed or prepared for the processing, use or production of special fissionable material, to any non-nuclear-weapon State for peaceful purposes, unless the source or special fissionable material shall be subject to the safeguards required by this article.



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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 21:55
Originally posted by melissini

about DU missiles, they are used primarily for bunker busting, this is because they can burrow deeper in the fortified bunker due to the heavy nature of the depleted Uranuim.  Now the word depleted should mean that it isn't radioactive any more, however that isn't a proven fact.  For example after the bombing of Kosovo, occupying forces moved in from all over the world.  One branch of these policing forces were Italian, they made their base in an area near enemy bunkers that had been hit by DU bunker buster missiles.  Most of them later came down with leukemia, this was on the news in most europian counties.  Italian scientists found out that some fragments of the DU bombs were in fact radioactive.  This caused a panic in Yugoslavia in general, i saw the new rports for months on Greek Television news as well as German (ihave a satelite dish) many people living near DU fragments came down with leukemia and the radioactive fragments were eventualy cleaned up.  At that time all countries outside the US that had GU bobms pulled them out of play, i know Greece and Turkey did cause i saw it on the news.  An inqury by the American Government was to be established on just how depleted was this Uranium, but it never happened.

Now, for DU used in armor as an aplique kit for an Abrams, it is supposedly of low radiation.  This to me may be true since i have a cousin in the Greek army and he has driven in an Abrams (Greece has purchased a number of them).  But in its bunker busting form it isn't so "clean".  Why i don't know, perhaps if this inquiry was actually done, we would have an answer.

The Radiation is incredibly low, the health problems I believe come from the fact that Uranium is a heavy metal and some of it vaporizes on impact, creating a fine dust of dense particles.  The same thing happens with gold or silver dust, but because we hardly ever come into contact with them in dust form we don't realize the hazards. 

Depleted Uranium is also used by many boat manufacturers as counterweights to improve commercial boat stability.  Obviously they know it poses no radiation hazard.

I did read a report by the WHO about DU shells used in Kosovo found that ground contamination by DU shells was localized to within a few meters of from the impact site. 

I would venture that the problems the Italians encountered were due to establishing their site at a place that was saturated with these shells, and not a more healthy site.  The leukemia I would also be sure are the result of the toxic and not radiological properties of depleted uranium.

Here's the report

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/

A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.

 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 19:18

well said.  (love the classic cars too!!!). 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 10:25

Depleted uranium of any quantity is a health hazzard.

There is lots to like about American ways of life. (Love the classic cars I own.) Legal and social rights are good here too. However, we have a responsibility to use our might in a respectable and restraining fashion. When America sneezes, the world catches a cold. We have been irresponsible on the world stage for the past many years. We also have been duped. WMD-Weapons of Mass Deception. In the mean time our economy has been shipped to the lowest bidder.

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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 06:01

Reading the posts above about the famous WMDs, there is a very big contradiction about WMD search. UN weapons inspectors were searching Iraq for these weapons. If they found them, this would be obviously evidence that Iraq had them. But if they didn't find them, as it finally happened, then that is only taken as evidence that Iraq was not "telling them what material he has and allowing them to shut it down OR has moved them to a neighboring country, eg Syria".

In other words, if they found weapons that's proof Iraq had them and if they didn't it's proof Iraq was hiding them. That means nothing the UN inspectors could do could be accepted as evidence that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction, since only evidence that it did is counted. Heads I win, tails you lose.

It is quite logical that in order to perform a genuine test of a theory you must permit the possibility of evidence that would count against it. If you do not, the test cannot be genuine, because a test that is run with the presumption that nothing could count as a failure of the test is no real test at all, its most likely a joke.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 02:48
Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

do you have any moral arguments to justify that?

As an American I believe I have the moral duty to defend my country from our numerous enemies and secure our position as the world's preeminent power fpr the good of the American populace.  I would be violating my duty to the United States if I did not try to make her strong at every opportunity.  As Machiavelli said, "the greatest good one can ever do is to do good for their country".  Those who have tried to make any international system of peace and brotherhood have failed and I will work hard to keep America from repeating their folly.

It is with this in mind I plan to enter a career that will further the power of my country.  I have the choices as Engineer for a defence aerospace firm, or professional officer in the US Army, and hopefully later as a politician as well.

Very good Genghis....and from my part congratulations...

Besides Machiavelli , i sugest u read Aristoteles too.... U see , power without moral , even if it is used for the best of one's country , i can also , at the same moment , be used for the worst , for another persons country...

What , is important , it is not to have the power , but to know HOW to use it.

Isk. 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 02:31

about DU missiles, they are used primarily for bunker busting, this is because they can burrow deeper in the fortified bunker due to the heavy nature of the depleted Uranuim.  Now the word depleted should mean that it isn't radioactive any more, however that isn't a proven fact.  For example after the bombing of Kosovo, occupying forces moved in from all over the world.  One branch of these policing forces were Italian, they made their base in an area near enemy bunkers that had been hit by DU bunker buster missiles.  Most of them later came down with leukemia, this was on the news in most europian counties.  Italian scientists found out that some fragments of the DU bombs were in fact radioactive.  This caused a panic in Yugoslavia in general, i saw the new rports for months on Greek Television news as well as German (ihave a satelite dish) many people living near DU fragments came down with leukemia and the radioactive fragments were eventualy cleaned up.  At that time all countries outside the US that had GU bobms pulled them out of play, i know Greece and Turkey did cause i saw it on the news.  An inqury by the American Government was to be established on just how depleted was this Uranium, but it never happened.

Now, for DU used in armor as an aplique kit for an Abrams, it is supposedly of low radiation.  This to me may be true since i have a cousin in the Greek army and he has driven in an Abrams (Greece has purchased a number of them).  But in its bunker busting form it isn't so "clean".  Why i don't know, perhaps if this inquiry was actually done, we would have an answer.

Furthermore Cluster Bombs are also weapons of mass destruction according to the UN and still they are used everywere by America.  These weapons can't be trusted, along with the other weapons of mass destruction such as nuclear, biological etc, in the hand of ANYONE!  Be it american or what not.  And last time i checked, China, North Korea, Pakistan, India, and a number of other countries all have these weapons.  Are they deemed responsible enough?  Who judges these things?  America shouldn't be a hypocrite, tell the truth.  No weapons of mass destruction for anyone. 

Thank you.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 22:17

Originally posted by melissini

actually, they states have used them more than once. the uranium depleted bombs that were used in the kosovo war, have beem classified as wepons of mass destruction by the UN.
  

Oh really? The same UN that is supposedly an American puppet declares our "silver bullets" as our tank crews call them weapons of mass destruction?

That ruling is also absurd, one depleted uranium shell can only destroy one tank, hardly a weapon of mass destruction.  And any the depleted uranium in those shells doesn't under go fission on impact and have a half-life of about 6 billion years which makes them extremely radiologically inactive (in fact, inside an Abrams tank filled with DU shells, the radiation is less than outside because the armor stops cosmic background radiation thus the radiation caused by a full load of DU shells is less than normal background radiation).  The only reason depleted uranium is used and not other substances is because its so dense and fairly plentiful from American nuclear power plants.  The Uranium in them is also about as toxic as certain propellants and explosives in other weapons of war.

Originally posted by melissini

and i'm sure all the civillians were the ones that sent the terrorists to your country, because thats who gets killed and suffer the most during those wars. you sure are getting those terrorists!

Civilians die in war, deal with it.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 22:10

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

America and stable countries should be allowed to possess them just as a sane citizen should be allowed to own a knife but a violent person shouldn't.  America has only used them twice in a world war, and never since.

I don't see why America can be compared to a "sane citizen" and not to a violent one. No other country than the USA has overthrown so many goverments in the 20th centry.

I'm referring to nukes, America has never used nukes in the past 60 years, countries like Iran probably wouldn't be so restrained.

And if you want me to apologize for my country's overthrow of dangerous communist governments like in Nicaragua, Grenada, and Chile, I'm sorry for you because I won't, and if I were President I would have done the same thing.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 14:20

actually, they states have used them more than once. the uranium depleted bombs that were used in the kosovo war, have beem classified as wepons of mass destruction by the UN.  and i'm sure all the civillians were the ones that sent the terrorists to your country, because thats who gets killed and suffer the most during those wars. you sure are getting those terrorists!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 14:00
America and stable countries should be allowed to possess them just as a sane citizen should be allowed to own a knife but a violent person shouldn't.  America has only used them twice in a world war, and never since.

I don't see why America can be compared to a "sane citizen" and not to a violent one. No other country than the USA has overthrown so many goverments in the 20th centry.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 12:45
Originally posted by melissini

why is america allowed to possess wepons of mass destruction, and other countries arn't?  those countries are more likely to get invaded/ or put into a situation where they have to defend themselves.  yet its those countries that have them taken away, or told they arnt allowed.  i can understand a countries desire to defend themselves, but the threat to the US and the rest of north america is small compared to the middle east, and other 'hot spots'.  there is just the threat of terrorism over here, and i dont see how people can justify starting a war over terrorism;  it happens every day in other places all over the world.

America and stable countries should be allowed to possess them just as a sane citizen should be allowed to own a knife but a violent person shouldn't.  America has only used them twice in a world war, and never since.

America itself is also not invulnerable, but that's not the point, our interests are far flung and they are threatened to a great extent.

Your last statement is silly, should we tolerate because it's normal?  Would you tell a cop trying to catch a murderer to drop it because murders occur all the time.

Regardless of that, there's the principle, terrorists attacked my country and now they must die for their mistake, I'm not going to excuse them because other people get abused more often.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 03:46

why is america allowed to possess wepons of mass destruction, and other countries arn't?  those countries are more likely to get invaded/ or put into a situation where they have to defend themselves.  yet its those countries that have them taken away, or told they arnt allowed.  i can understand a countries desire to defend themselves, but the threat to the US and the rest of north america is small compared to the middle east, and other 'hot spots'.  there is just the threat of terrorism over here, and i dont see how people can justify starting a war over terrorism;  it happens every day in other places all over the world.

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  Quote Herodotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 19:40
Might is Right.
"Dieu est un comdien jouant une assistance trop effraye de rire."
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Francois Marie Arouet, Voltaire

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 22:01
[QUOTE=Thegeneral]

Wow, wait, do you believe Al-gazeera should be allowed to air?  Are you mad or just another terrorist?  They incite more terrorism and encouge it!  They are terrorists in case you haven't noticed!

/quote

 

Al-Jazeera is no worse thanb American news.  Its common American propoganda in the US news outlast to bash Al-Jazeera but they are all the same thing.  Al-Jazeera is really just the Fox news of the Arabic world, except that they are more liberal.  For example at least Al-Jazeera expressly states in biases, which are of course anti-american but also anti-Gaddaffi, anti-dictator, pro-reform and pro -moderate.  Compared to large amounts of the Arab world its actually pretty modern.  They also conducted a poll showing most Algerians would rather return to French rule than have the curretn dictatorships they have now..no american news channel would ever be so subversive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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