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Ancient Caucasians with beards in Meso America
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Caucasians with beards in Meso America
    Posted: 31-Aug-2009 at 15:36
Originally posted by Sander

Only in the  Americas some sort of Parallel World is proposed by some political archaelogists  in which  all cultural parallels are claimed to be unrelated and developed in cultural  isolation.  That would mean that the indians in the Americas were the only ones in the world that reached civilization without some influences from the other ones! Just political propaganda.

There appear to be two possible explantions for this claim
 
A. There is a vast conspiracy against "the truth" (your version). Yet "the truth" is completely unsupported except for a few pieces of bearded figure art.  
 
B. There is a lack of evidence
 
I will go with explanation "B"
 
Originally posted by Sander

It 's well known outside the Americas  that its a state-sponsored ideology of American nations, related to politics.  Virtually all American nations adhering to cultural isolationism, have subjecated the Indians, taken over the whole continent, and maintain the sovereignity over them,  basing it ultimately on the Doctrine of Discovery.

 
One could just as easily claim....
 
A handful of hsitoricans refuse to give the Native Americans credit for their civilizations. They insist, depite an almost entire lack of evidence that Native Americans must of had contact with Romans, Phoenicians etc (who not surprisingly, physically resemble the theorists). Without this needed contact, the amer-indians could not have developed civilizations.  
 
Or maybe cultural isolationism is historical fact.


Edited by Cryptic - 31-Aug-2009 at 15:43
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2009 at 14:26
Cryptic. Don’t  claim  that  “my version “ is  that there is a “ conspiracy against the truth  “ without quotations that say so. Dont misread and twist my words again.  
 
There appear to be two possible explantions for this claim
 
A. There is a vast conspiracy against "the truth" (your version). Yet "the truth" is completely unsupported except for a few pieces of bearded figure art.  
 
B. There is a lack of evidence
....
 
The bearded caucasoid figures are consistent with the indian histories of fair skinned bearded people coming from the east. We can ofcourse disagree with the Indians themselves, but that would be unsupported claims.Big smile
 
A handful of hsitoricans refuse to give the Native Americans credit for their civilizations. They insist, depite an almost entire lack of evidence that Native Americans must of had contact with Romans, Phoenicians etc (who not surprisingly, physically resemble the theorists). Without this needed contact, the amer-indians could not have developed civilizations.  
 

You are almost sounding like Pinguin with that sort of stuff. Read this: Some cultural exchanging with the other civilizations on earth does not make the indians inferior or something.  Romans, Arabs,  Turks , Africans , Chinese etc etc. all builded civilizations with some mutual exchanging. 



Edited by Sander - 07-Sep-2009 at 09:47
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2009 at 14:35
Originally posted by Sander

Cryptic. Don’t  claim  that  “my version “ is a “ conspiracy against the truth  “ without quotations that say so. Dont misread and twist my words again.  
That is a personal interpertation of your beliefs. As an interpertation, it does not need to be supported by direct quotes.  My personal interpertation, can of course be accepted or rejected. I was only follwoing the tone that you had set.
 
Originally posted by Sander

You are almost sounding like Pinguin with that sort of stuff. Read this: Some cultural exchanging with the other civilizations on earth does not make the indians inferior or something.  Romans, Arabs,  Turks , Africans , Chinese etc etc. all builded civilizations with some mutual exchanging. 
You are correctSmile. I do agree with Pinquin that the Americas developed independently from the rest of the world.  I do not agree with Pinguin's glorifications of Amer-indian cultures. My post was about as fair and balanced as this one....
Originally posted by Sander

It 's well known outside the Americas  that its a state-sponsored ideology of American nations, related to politics.  Virtually all American nations adhering to cultural isolationism, have subjecated the Indians, taken over the whole continent, and maintain the sovereignity over them,  basing it ultimately on the Doctrine of Discovery. 

 
Originally posted by Sander

Read this: Some cultural exchanging with the other civilizations on earth does not make the indians inferior or something.  Romans, Arabs,  Turks , Africans , Chinese etc etc. all builded civilizations with some mutual exchanging. 
  
Agreed. 


Edited by Cryptic - 02-Sep-2009 at 15:15
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2009 at 08:28

There is a logical way to look at these contacts. Inhabitants of Americas did not have wheels or mortar, which means there was no contact between any center of American and Eurasian civilizations after these inventions occurred. 
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2009 at 09:16

Cryptic. I said not to claim that my version is a conspiracy and now you do it again under the exuse its just your interpretation.

Dogma's , cultural isolatinism, policies, yes. None are conspiracies.
 
 
Definition of conspiracy  : 

Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come to almost exclusively refer to any theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators, such as a "secret team" or "shadow government", rather than broad social forces and large structures of human collectivities.[1]

..

The term is therefore often used dismissively in an attempt to characterize a belief as outlandishly false and held by a person judged to be a crank or a group confined to the lunatic fringe. Such characterization is often the subject of dispute due to its possible unfairness and inaccuracy.[4]

 
 
I know excactly how it's used , especially in these issues. Next time you claim it or defend it , it will be treated as trolling.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sander - 03-Sep-2009 at 11:40
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2009 at 09:55
Originally posted by cavalry4ever


There is a logical way to look at these contacts. Inhabitants of Americas did not have wheels or mortar, which means there was no contact between any center of American and Eurasian civilizations after these inventions occurred. 
 
Both wheel and mortar were known.
 
The wheel in concept and execution was only used on small things , not used to make large chariots drawn by animals for example.
 
One of many ancient examples from Meso america. 


Edited by Sander - 03-Sep-2009 at 11:25
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2009 at 17:48
Guys, could you cool down your discussion. It is interesting and does not have to become a bar brawl. Your discussion reflects problems with History of Americas. As someone said, History is written by the victors. The idea of unraveling layers of propaganda and racism, and treating all participants objectively is still pretty new in this field. A good argument should be constructive and not devolve into a brawl. Also we now know that there were multiple immigration waves and this explains developmental diversity of population which ranged from advanced urban empires to stone age hunters and gatherers.

Sander - when you post pictures, could you give some context and some dates. 

After all, all of mankind started in the same spot. What is interesting is to trace down when major splits occurred and distinctive civilizations emerged. I am not an expert in this field but it seems there were interesting holes on the technology side. Metallurgy is another missing part. Considering that bronze age was pretty established in Eurasia and some of your eurasian pictures you are using to make point are at least from bronze age , your argument may need some more backing up. We know that Aztecs used wooden/obsidian swords, this means they were at stone age level. Their civilization was very uneven technologically. In some aspects they matched Eurasians, in some aspects they were far behind. This would suggest that contacts, if they occurred were very ancient at best. If you have interesting sources, I would like to hear them. So far  I hear a lot of speculation and hearsay.
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2009 at 08:16
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Guys, could you cool down your discussion. It is interesting and does not have to become a bar brawl. Your discussion reflects problems with History of Americas. As someone said, History is written by the victors. The idea of unraveling layers of propaganda and racism, and treating all participants objectively is still pretty new in this field. A good argument should be constructive and not devolve into a brawl. Also we now know that there were multiple immigration waves and this explains developmental diversity of population which ranged from advanced urban empires to stone age hunters and gatherers.

Sander - when you post pictures, could you give some context and some dates. 

After all, all of mankind started in the same spot. What is interesting is to trace down when major splits occurred and distinctive civilizations emerged. I am not an expert in this field but it seems there were interesting holes on the technology side. Metallurgy is another missing part. Considering that bronze age was pretty established in Eurasia and some of your eurasian pictures you are using to make point are at least from bronze age , your argument may need some more backing up. We know that Aztecs used wooden/obsidian swords, this means they were at stone age level. Their civilization was very uneven technologically. In some aspects they matched Eurasians, in some aspects they were far behind. This would suggest that contacts, if they occurred were very ancient at best. If you have interesting sources, I would like to hear them. So far  I hear a lot of speculation and hearsay.
 
Good to see some open- and seriousness,C4E. Thumbs Up That is what I m waiting for. I also notice that you are aware that there are some problems regarding  the subject of how American (pre)history is written.
 
I only have time now to refute your claims. I will post something more a few hours later ( and clean this thread a bit so it stays seriously and on topic . )
 
Note that I counter claims by providing positive evidence. So, not  by : denying/ piece male dismissal , dogma, arguing in circles,  etc.  (and done without providing relevant counter evidence of course! ) 
 

You claimed  there was no wheel, no mortar, no metallurgy  in America , but all these claims are not substantiated.

 
Wheel 

One example is already shown. For a site ( with the right references ) on the wheeled objects and dates ( the wheeled dog I showed is on it too) :

 

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

 

Mortar  

There were  ancient structures  in Mexico that used  mortar. El Naranjal for example. Info is to be found on the internet.

 
An archaeological paper dealing with it :
 

Jennifer P. Mathews.Radiocarbon Dating of Architectural Mortar: A Case Study in the Maya Region, Quintana Roo,Mexico.Author(s): Source: Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 28, No. 3/4 (Autumn - Winter, 2001), pp. 395-400

  

"Despite these problems, our direct dating of mortar and its charcoal inclusions was successful. The associated ceramic dates when combined with the radiocarbon dates make a strong argument for the construction and occupa- tion of the Megalithic architecture at El Naranjal in the Late Precassic and Early Classic. Despite the limitations, AMS dating of architectural mortar has provided means for strengthening our chronological understanding of the architecture at the site." ( page 5)

 

 

Metallurgy 

 

There was metallurgy in South and Mesoamerca. Bronzeworking for example since the first millenium BC. You can even buy some ancient bronze artefacts !

 

http://www.artemisgallery.com/metal.html

 

For a study  : e.g. Dorothy Hosler ( 1988)  

 
 
I have some other comments,  but they will come later.
 
Star
 
References
 

Jennifer P. Mathews.Radiocarbon Dating of Architectural Mortar: A Case Study in the Maya Region, Quintana Roo,Mexico.Author(s): Source: Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 28, No. 3/4 (Autumn - Winter, 2001), pp. 395-400

 
Dorothy Hosler ( 1988) "Ancient West Mexican Metallurgy: South and Central American Origins and West Mexican Transformations. "  American Anthropologist.
 
 



Edited by Sander - 04-Sep-2009 at 11:18
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2009 at 09:37
Thanks. Your provided good references.
I read about Inca buildings and they did not use mortar mortar. The same is about Aztecs. Their weapons were effective, yet they used no metal. Is it that adoption of technology was very uneven or there was no need for it based on some other factors?
As I said I am not expert on pre-Columbian civilization and appreciate the fact that I can learn something new and interesting.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2009 at 09:48
Originally posted by Sander

...You are almost sounding like Pinguin with that sort of stuff. Read this: Some cultural exchanging with the other civilizations on earth does not make the indians inferior or something.  Romans, Arabs,  Turks , Africans , Chinese etc etc. all builded civilizations with some mutual exchanging. 
 

The problem is very simple. There aren’t contacts to the Americas certified by science; none at all. Not a single case. The Americas were completely isolated from the rest of the world, since 12.000 years ago, with only two exceptions.

 

(1)   The Inuit reached the New World’s Arctic circa 2.000 years ago.

 

(2)   The Norse reached New Foundland around 1.000 A.D.

 

Of all the other “cases”, the truth is that none have been proven so far, and I am afraid none of them will be ever proven, simply because they are fantasies.

 

Now, that doesn’t mean the Americas culture started from thin air. No way. The first American immigrants, that crossed the Bering Strait, brought with them a lot of cultural elements from the Old World, Asia in particular. For instance, they brought skin clothes, the needle, the bows and arrows, the boats and probably the teepee as well.

It is amazing they also brought from the Old World a plant like the gourds or calabash, whose origin has been traced to Asia! They also brought with them languages and even a shamanic religion, that was the base on which the American civilizations developed.

 

But not contact has been proved whatsoever, at any time after the Bering Strait closed.

 

The wonder of the Americas was precisely the isolation in which lived, that didn’t stop man for developing several magnificent civilizations. No other place of the earth was so isolated like the Americas, with the exception perhaps of Australia. The rest of the world was interconnected by intermediaries. Europeans received technology from China, Chinese learn religion from India, Indians traded with North Africa, and North Africans, East Africans, Arabs and Indonesians influenced heavily Sub-Saharan Africa during millennia.

 

The Americas can’t compare with the rest of the world because is something wonderfully different, and its value is precisely in its isolation.

 

Studying the development of the Americas, we can contrast it with the development of civilization in the Old World. The Americas is for the study of civilizations and history as useful as a potential discovery of life in another planet could be for understanding biology. It is the necessary point of comparison that make us see clear the potential of the Human Being.

 

That’s why I love the Americas!



Edited by Pachacutec - 05-Sep-2009 at 09:54
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2009 at 08:37
Originally posted by Pachacutec

The Americas is for the study of civilizations and history as useful as a potential discovery of life in another planet could be for understanding biology. It is the necessary point of comparison that make us see clear the potential of the Human Being.

There seems to be a critical mass in population that allows isolated groups to develop civilizations. The Americas acheived this critical mass. It is also interesting  that not only were the American civilizations isoalted from the old wolrd, but they only had limited contact with each other.
 
The Australian population, however, was not only isolated, but never reached a critical mass in population. This led to a regression of civilization as the inhabitants forgot the use of bows, ocean going canoes, and in the case of super isolated Tasmania, the use of fish hooks.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2009 at 15:10
Originally posted by Cryptic

...There seems to be a critical mass in population that allows isolated groups to develop civilizations. The Americas acheived this critical mass. It is also interesting  that not only were the American civilizations isoalted from the old wolrd, but they only had limited contact with each other.
 
The Australian population, however, was not only isolated, but never reached a critical mass in population. This led to a regression of civilization as the inhabitants forgot the use of bows, ocean going canoes, and in the case of super isolated Tasmania, the use of fish hooks.
 
 
 
Not all American natives reached the same level of development. Natives of the Amazon, for instance, had a material culture similar to Australian aborigines, and perhaps Fuegins of southern Patagonia had a simpler culture than Australians. In the Americas, only in the South and South West of the U.S., in the Mesoamerican region, and in the Andes region, the societies achieved high densities and build cities (therefore, civilizations).
 
And, indeed, contact between Amerindian civilizations was small, but existed. For instance, all Amerindian civilizations had maize, a plant which started from a single source.
 
The American natives, from the start, had the advantage of having a very varied collection of highly productive vegetables, such as potatoes, maize, tomato, calabash and dozens of others. Australians lacked such variety. Besides, Australians lived in a continent that can sustain very few people. Even today, there are only 20 million people in Australia while in the Americas there are 800 millions. That's shows the difference on agricultural potential. And that's why Aborigines had so many things against them.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 09:28
This is interesting topic and should be continued. At this point it has nothing to do with original topic.
We need to move it to more relevant place. Could you suggest a best thread and name for it?
I think we could park it in Archeology and Anthropology.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 09:42
How about "physical isolation and cultural development"?
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 11:26
I just did it. See you at Archeology and Anthropology/Physical Isolation and Cultural Development.
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 12:04

Indeed C4E .   Its time to get back on topic.

Inspite a lot of arguing , nobody has presented evidence  here to support his claims.  I’m  the only here  who  showed some  evidence  and countered claims with relevant evidence. ( like is done  with some of c4e claims for example ). 

 

So guys,  if you make claims relevant to the topic,  try to support them with positive evidence. Big smile

 

 



Edited by Sander - 10-Sep-2009 at 12:08
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 12:14

You can't prove in a positive way that no contact existed. It is like to prove vampires don't exist, or that there isn't a nessy, phantoms or green martians. How do you prove it? You can't.

The only support of the isolation thesis is indirect: debunked contact cases, lacks of genetical influences from the outside world in the Amerindians, lack of surprising changes in archaeological records. The more the history of the Americas is reconstructed it is easier to see its development was local, rather than imported.


Edited by Pachacutec - 10-Sep-2009 at 12:16
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2009 at 13:03
Again no evidence is presented, just  arguing  without. 
 
Originally posted by Pachacutec

You can't prove in a positive way that no contact existed. It is like to prove vampires don't exist, or that there isn't a nessy, phantoms or green martians. How do you prove it? You can't.

The only support of the isolation thesis is indirect: debunked contact cases, lacks of genetical influences from the outside world in the Amerindians, lack of surprising changes in archaeological records. The more the history of the Americas is reconstructed it is easier to see its development was local, rather than imported.
 
Note that Pachacutec admits he has no evidence for his claims.
 
Isolationist scholars 'claims and opinion  are of  no importance unless supported by evidence.  
The claim  that a civilization developed in isolation as the Isolationist claim,  is  contrary to what human history shows. Its even more absurd  to claim the Indians  were the only  people in the world who did so!  


Such  is easily linked to politics.  It well known in the world  that claiming the Indians as isolated until discovery is used to maintain sovereignty  over them and the lands.   ( see also Kehoe op.cit. )

Up to now,  no counter evidence is presented  relevant to the topic! 


Edited by Sander - 18-Sep-2009 at 13:40
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2009 at 14:24
Way I see this is not as clear cut. At this time we have no proof of contact, that is true. Yet every year we discover interesting new facts. Now we now know about Chinese  probably circumnavigating the planet. We suspect Phoenicians did go past Gibraltar. So were  Polynesians  sailing all over Pacific. It seems the problem is that maritime technology was ahead of written records and there was a preconceived idea of Europeans being first everywhere. Yet if we think about technology alone, the antiquity had better ships and science than Europeans. So did Chinese. If we think about this from a rational perspective, it would be surprising if contacts did not occur. But we have no real proof of this at this time.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2009 at 05:17
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Way I see this is not as clear cut. At this time we have no proof of contact, that is true. Yet every year we discover interesting new facts. Now we now know about Chinese  probably circumnavigating the planet. We suspect Phoenicians did go past Gibraltar. So were  Polynesians  sailing all over Pacific. It seems the problem is that maritime technology was ahead of written records and there was a preconceived idea of Europeans being first everywhere. Yet if we think about technology alone, the antiquity had better ships and science than Europeans. So did Chinese. If we think about this from a rational perspective, it would be surprising if contacts did not occur. But we have no real proof of this at this time.
 
You don't know that. You very well known that those fantasious stories about Zeng He going to the Americas were an hoax made by a semi-analphabet British plumber, and that has the same credibility than Longson Rampa. LOLLOL
No matter how hard Mormons have tried, they have never found any real solid evidence of Phoenicians comming to the Americas.
Even the curious proof of those Polynesian chickens in Chile has been found wrong.
 
Sorry, but this old idea of transoceanic contacts is very discredited by now.
 
You know, racists invented those fantasies around the 16th century to explain the glory of Indigenous Civilizations. Since so long ago any real proof have ever been found. But the oaxes has been counted by the thousand Confused
 
I hope this bigotry against Amerindians ends one day.
 
 
 
 
 
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