Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Ancient Caucasians with beards in Meso America
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Caucasians with beards in Meso America
    Posted: 16-Aug-2009 at 12:43

In meso america (and beyond ) the Indians claimed in their histories they were visited in ancient times by fair skinned strangers from across the sea. They were said to have full beards.  Several ancient figures in the region are consistent with it. Some examples  :

 
 
Monte Alban, Mexico ( first millenium BC ):
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sander - 16-Aug-2009 at 13:56
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2009 at 16:37

Perhaps the carvings and the stories of men with beards are refering to remnant Australoid groups that crossed with the Asiatic Amerindians. As these Australoids were gradually absorbed by the dominant Amerindian groups, their appereance would have been more and more exotic and possibly led to stories that they came from "beyond the seas"

As a side note, Australoid groups were present historically in Japan and in the Sakahalin Islands.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2009 at 15:15

 

The bearded caucasian figures appear in the region in  Olmec times, not pre Olmec times.   Such figures have no antecedents in the regions but they can be find  elsewhere. 

 

As anybody can see for himself , an objective comparison of artstyle and caucasian facial features links them easily to the mediterrean and middle east:  

 

 
They are also consistent with the  Indian traditions of bearded visitors from across the sea , from where the sun rises ( the east ).
 
Star


Edited by Sander - 17-Aug-2009 at 15:43
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2009 at 09:39
Well, lets assume that there were Caucasion visitors. Who do you think the Caucasians were? Did they make round trips or do te carvings reprenst a one time, one way crossing event? Prior to Roman contact, the Canary Islands had an indigenous population. Perhaps these islands were the source of the Caucasians.
 
Also, Spanish priests described some California Indian Bands as having Australoid features. Though Australoids in the New World were rare (if they existed at all), it is not beyond the realm of possibilty there were indigeneous Australoids in Mexico during pre contact times. 
 
Back to Top
kurtusanami View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Aug-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2 		  Quote kurtusanami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2009 at 15:29
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 12">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 12">

How about the Vikings. Didn’t the Vikings arrive in America? There seem to be Sagas of such crossings to distant lands beyond the seas. That is at least what I have heard. It would be fairly easy to sail from island or Greenland, which almost borders America and then take a land route south.

Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2009 at 22:22
^
If the Norse of the 900’s are meant , they also crossed the Atlantic but that was long after the  bearded figures discussed here were made.  

 
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2009 at 23:23
I discuss this mostly in a generic way in this thread,  but a normal and objective comparison links the bearded caucasoid figures with med. /middle eastern cultures of that time and earlier, not with ancient Austroloids.  We dont see Med. /Semitic looks with full beards before the visitors appear in Olmec times. 
 
Some other pics ( Maya times ) :
 

 

 

NB: Cryptic made a comment about the Canaries. I agree there would have been driftvoyages from there, probably by locals as well.


Edited by Sander - 20-Aug-2009 at 23:48
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2009 at 07:38
Originally posted by Sander

I discuss this mostly in a generic way in this thread,  but a normal and objective comparison links the bearded caucasoid figures with med. /middle eastern cultures of that time and earlier, not with ancient Austroloids.  
 
To paraphrase another member, "Meso Americans did not produce the most accurate stone carvings". The Olmecs also made carvings with black African facial features. That does not mean that the Olmecs had contact with black Africans.
 
The number of carvings  and the length of time in which they were produced would seem to indicate continous contact, or perhaps even the establishment of a colony.  That would rule out the occasional drifters from the Canaries.  There is no archaelogical evidence of  a colony or continous contact with Mediterranean cultures. Plus Mediterraneran cultures at that time lacked the technology for even semi reliable open ocean crossings.
 
The carvings might show bands of Taino Amerindians from the Carribean that had contact with drifter crossers from the Canaries. Perhaps some of these Taino bands intermarried and could grow beards. My other guess is that the carvings show indigenous Australoids.


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Aug-2009 at 07:40
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2009 at 12:43
Cryptic replied to :
Originally posted by Sander

I discuss this mostly in a generic way in this thread,  but a normal and objective comparison links the bearded caucasoid figures with med. /middle eastern cultures of that time and earlier, not with ancient Austroloids.  We dont see Med. /Semitic looks with full beards before the visitors appear in Olmec times.
 
with this :  
 
Originally posted by Cryptic

To paraphrase another member, "Meso Americans did not produce the most accurate stone carvings". The Olmecs also made carvings with black African facial features. That does not mean that the Olmecs had contact with black Africans.
 
The number of carvings  and the length of time in which they were produced would seem to indicate continous contact, or perhaps even the establishment of a colony.  That would rule out the occasional drifters from the Canaries.  There is no archaelogical evidence of  a colony or continous contact with Mediterranean cultures. Plus Mediterraneran cultures at that time lacked the technology for even semi reliable open ocean crossings.
 
The carvings might show bands of Taino Amerindians from the Carribean that had contact with drifter crossers from the Canaries. Perhaps some of these Taino bands intermarried and could grow beards. My other guess is that the carvings show indigenous Australoids.
 
Objective comparison shows  that the bearded figures are caucasian and related to the Med./ME . Such figures have no antecedents in America but have so visibly  in the Med/ME where they overlap in age.  Note that Cryptic gives no evidence to the contrary. No  pre-Olmec  figures in America with beards and caucasoid features  are shown.
 
On the other hand, Cryptic seriously opts for some ancient crossings  from the Canaries to the Americas, which led to some intermarriages between caucasians and Indians.  I agree with much of it, basically ! Approve It 's just that the evidence for this is concentrated in Mexico/Meso america, indicating such things happened there .  
 
Plus Mediterraneran cultures at that time lacked the technology for even semi reliable open ocean crossings.
 

Fiction! Often claimed by archaeologists ( in America) and other state-sponsored dogma protectors with no valuable  knowledge of maritime history , seafaring and shipbuilding.

 

Among others, Phoenican and Roman empire ships were regurarely crossing 1000’s  kms of blue water. The open sea routes Aden–South India  and Aden-Ceylon for example took some 30-40 days non-stop on the open sea ( Periplus ). To compare : West Africa-Brazil is about the same in distance and travel time . Travel time , not distance,  is the primary measurement for ancient sailors .

 

The rock hard facts are that much simpler vessels can cross the oceans, especially in currents like the Canary current . Hannes Lindemann for example crossed the Atlantic in an African wooden dugout canoe and a kayak with small sail.  He is one of many who empirically  demonstrated that simple technology is sufficent for such crossings. That is the scientific method, instead of dogma or opinion.

 

Dogma : Ancient Med. cultures could not cross 1000 's km/miles  of open sea.

 

Historical, nautical and empirical facts : they could and did. Even dug out canoes and small planked boats are sufficient.

  

It’s remarkable that it was proposed that locals from the Canary islands were able to make it across the atlantic but that the most advanced civilizations in and around the Mediterrenean could not.

 
Star


Edited by Sander - 22-Aug-2009 at 18:35
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by Sander

Cryptic replied to :
Note that Cryptic gives no evidence to the contrary. No  pre-Olmec  figures in America with beards and caucasoid features  are shown.
And your evidence is equally thin. In your scenario, a new culture arrives from vast distances. Their features are then representd in works of art, possibly even temple art which implies a great deal of respect. Yet these strangers leave no other archaelogical evidence, no metal tools, no wheels and axels, no boat building techniques, no written language sources etc.
Originally posted by Sander

On the other hand, Cryptic seriously opts for some ancient crossings  from the Canaries to the Americas, which led to some intermarriages between caucasians and Indians.  I agree with much of it, basically
Because this scenario is more realistic. Here the crossings are unintentional. The drifting survivors then merge with a culture (Carribean Amer-indians) that is technologically equivelent to their own.
 
Originally posted by Sander

 Note that Cryptic gives no evidence to the contrary. No  pre-Olmec  figures in America with beards and caucasoid features  are shown.
You are assuming that beards = caucasoids.  Australoids are also bearded.  There are reports of Australoids in the new world and they were definetly present in North East Siberia during ancient times (Ainu, Sakahalin Islanders, Emeshi). The most likely scenario is that the carvings represent an indigenous Australoid group that rose to a position of repsect.
Originally posted by Sander

 

Historical, nautical and empirical facts : they could and did. Even dug out canoes and small planked boats are sufficient.

 
And there was nothing simple about those canoes. The polynesians engineered those canoes and developed the required navigation skills through centuries of experimentation with open ocean designs.  Likewise, aleut kayaks were also highly engineered for the open ocean.  Mediterranean cultures did not develop equivelant open ocean boats. If they had, then there would have been constant crossing with more archaelogical evidence.


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Aug-2009 at 19:52
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2009 at 21:19

This is what I wrote :

Originally posted by Sander

 

Historical, nautical and empirical facts : they could and did. Even dug out canoes and small planked boats are sufficient.

 
Cryptic replied :  
 

Originally posted by Cryptic

And there was nothing simple about those canoes. The polynesians engineered those canoes and developed the required navigation skills through centuries of experimentation with open ocean designs.  Likewise, aleut kayaks were also highly engineered for the open ocean.  Mediterranean cultures did not develop equivelant open ocean boats. If they had, then there would have been constant crossing with more archaeological evidence.

 

Cryptic seems to mix up “dug out canoes “ with the Polynesian sailing canoes  (  they are double hulled and partly sewn planked ( e.g. Lewis , We the Navigators).  I spoke of dugout canoes :  hollowed tree trunks ( one with a small sail was used by Lindemann and others ). 

 
Cryptic still denies the long open sea voyages made by mediterranean ships and thus disagrees with all classical  records,  archaeological evidence , classical/archaic nautical history and the maritime historians in the world!  No evidence to the contrary is presented, just his unsubstantiated claims.
 

And your evidence is equally thin. In your scenario, a new culture arrives from vast distances. Their features are then representd in works of art, possibly even temple art which implies a great deal of respect. Yet these strangers leave no other archaelogical evidence, no metal tools, no wheels and axels, no boat building techniques, no written language sources etc.
 

There is indeed much excellent archaeolgical evidence of  bearded caucasians in the art. All this is consistent with the indian traditions .  Any objective person familair with the standard  methodologies used in the whole world ( political archaeologists in America  rarely use them ) understands.

 
 

Because this scenario is more realistic. Here the crossings are unintentional. The drifting survivors then merge with a culture (Carribean Amer-indians) that is technologically equivelent to their own.

 

 
I agree to some extent with Cryptic 's claim of bearded caucasians coming to the Americas by drift or accidental voyages, but it's clear that Mexico/Mesoamerica was reached.  
 
  

You are assuming that beards = caucasoids.  Australoids are also bearded.  There are reports of Australoids in the new world and they were definetly present in North East Siberia during ancient times (Ainu, Sakahalin Islanders, Emeshi). The most likely scenario is that the carvings represent an indigenous Australoid group that rose to a position of repsect.

  

 

What Cryptic calls "most likely " is unsupported opinion.  He has not shown one pre-Olmec carving in America or other representation of full beards with such facial features and the same artistic conceptions. They are attestibly antecedent in the Med/ME,  not in America.

 
Star


Edited by Sander - 25-Aug-2009 at 15:25
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2009 at 18:44

Sander, you have demonstrated the well known principle that "proving a negative" is very difficult. Now, lets reverse the pattern: 

Can you show that the bearded figures could not have been indigenous Australoids?
Can you prove that the bearded figures could not have been Canary Island drifter crossers who got lucky?
 
And.....
What is your scenario as to the Phoenecian / Roman crossing?
Why is there no other archaeological or cultural evidence. No wheels, axels, metal tools, coins, language transfer, advanced boat building skills passed on etc.
 
Back to Top
tommy View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 13-Sep-2005
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 545 		  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 22:29
But the population at these islands were very primitive in technology, I do not think they can cross the Atlantis in pre viking time
leung
Back to Top
tommy View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 13-Sep-2005
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 545 		  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 22:37
When we talk about the colour of the skin, we always use our own defination, so when Native said they saw a group of people with light colour or white skin, then we immedately refer to European, but I believe In the eyes of those natives who did not have full knowledge of biology and human science, white or light skin colour just meant those group of people were not as coloured as the Native themselves, then there are many options, Mongols, Chinese Japanese, Persian,Egyptian, Berbers even some people from the sub continent?
leung
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2009 at 03:13

Cryptic replied to my earlier postings  with this :

 

Originally posted by Cryptic

Sander, you have demonstrated the well known principle that "proving a negative" is very difficult. Now, lets reverse the pattern: 

 

Can you show that the bearded figures could not have been indigenous Australoids?

Can you prove that the bearded figures could not have been Canary Island drifter crossers who got lucky?

 

 

Irrational! There is no such pattern to reverse. I don’t  make  statements like : “ Can you show that the bearded figures could not  have been  Caucasoids ?  “. That would be nonsensical arguing.

 
What is demonstrated is that such figures with such beards, facial features , artstyle  can be easily linked to the Med/ME and are known to be antecendent  there, not in America.  Nobody has shown any pre-olmec figure  in America with such beards and features.
  
Originally posted by Cryptic

And.....

What is your scenario as to the Phoenecian / Roman crossing?

 

 
That seems to refer to something I have not spoken of in earlier postings. 
 
Phoenicians are indeed candidates for some of the bearded caucasians ( more on that later ) but I spoke earlier of Phoenician and Roman empire ships ( various people in the empire, so not Romans perse ) that took  the open sea routes Aden-South India and Aden –Ceylon. 
 

 

Why is there no other archaeological or cultural evidence. No wheels, axels, metal tools, coins, language transfer, advanced boat building skills passed on etc.

 

Regarding cultural evidence . The normal method used worldwide is concentrating on what is there. The present cultural parallels have their own weight and don't go away, even when some other parallels are not there.

 
Only in the  Americas some sort of Parallel World is proposed by some political archaelogists ,  in which  all cultural parallels are claimed to be unrelated and developed in cultural  isolation.  That would mean that the indians in the Americas were the only ones in the world that reached civilization without some influences from the other ones! Just political propaganda. As history shows,  civilizations are combinations of local and foreign influences.
 
Star
 
 


Edited by Sander - 28-Aug-2009 at 12:20
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2009 at 14:46
Cryptic wrote-
 

Why is there no other archaeological or cultural evidence. No wheels, axels, metal tools, coins, language transfer, advanced boat building skills passed on etc.

 

 

 

Who says there isn't.  There are literally thousands of artifacts that indicate cross oceanic contact.

However, according to the isolationists they are all "hoaxes".  No credible evidence that would indicate the Hoaxer or possible motive, they are all just a hoax.  Tongue
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2009 at 16:04
Originally posted by Sander

That would mean that the indians in the Americas were the only ones in the world that reached civilization without some influences from the other ones! Just political propaganda. As history shows,  civilizations are combinations of local and foreign influences.

verse
Originally posted by Sander

Regarding cultural evidence . The normal method used worldwide is concentrating on what is there. The present cultural parallels have their own weight and don't go away, even when some other parallels are not there. 
   
First you maintain that the Amer-indian cultures could not have developed in isolation.  Then you excuse the fact that there was absolutely no cultural transfer between the hypothetical visitors and the locals (other than bearded figure art).  If cultures could not have developed in isolation, then cultural transfer is inevitable. In the case of the hypothetical visitors and the Meso Americans, there was no real cultural transfer. 
 
In the end, Amer-indian cultures did not develop in isolation, they developed in varying degrees of contact with each other. For example, Meso America and the U.S. Southwest.  The bearded figures are probably indigenous Australoids.
Originally posted by red clay

 

Who says there isn't.  There are literally thousands of artifacts that indicate cross oceanic contact.

However, according to the isolationists they are all "hoaxes".  No credible evidence that would indicate the Hoaxer or possible motive, they are all just a hoax.  Tongue

What artifacts are those. The only artifacts indicating pre viking contact are indirect evidence indicating that Polynesians proably visited Peru and may have visited California (Chumash Indians and planked canoes). There is also the "Solutrian" evidence from Neolitihic times. There is no evidence (cultural artifacts or transfer) that Phoenicians, Romans, Chinese or Arabs contacted the Americas prior to the Vikings. 
 
Originally posted by tommy

there are many options, Mongols, Chinese Japanese, Persian,Egyptian, Berbers even some people from the sub continent?
The only option supported by any kind of evidence is Polynesians in Peru and possibly California
 


Edited by Cryptic - 28-Aug-2009 at 16:15
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2009 at 05:46

Cryptic demonstrates again he has not read my postings well and  is under influence of Isolationist doctrines.

 
I wrote earlier   :
 
Originally posted by Sander

Regarding cultural evidence . The normal method used worldwide is concentrating on what is there. The present cultural parallels have their own weight and don't go away, even when some other parallels are not there.

 

and
 

Only in the  Americas some sort of Parallel World is proposed by some political archaelogists  in which  all cultural parallels are claimed to be unrelated and developed in cultural  isolation.  That would mean that the indians in the Americas were the only ones in the world that reached civilization without some influences from the other ones! Just political propaganda. As history shows,  civilizations are combinations of local and foreign influences.

 
Cryptic's understanding :
 
Originally posted by Cryptic

First you maintain that the Amer-indian cultures could not have developed in isolation.  Then you excuse the fact that there was absolutely no cultural transfer between the hypothetical visitors and the locals (other than bearded figure art)...

 
Note the underscored parts in my posting and that Cryptic reads there was no cultural influence ( parallels) . Ridiculous misreading!! They are there;  all are claimed as unrelated/independent invention by the "No Influence"  camp.  Anybody can follow that "all cultural parallels.."  indicates that there are such parallels.
 
Cultural Isolationism  refers to the claim that a civilization existed where virtually all complex parallels- so not just a few or some - that are shared with the other civilizations on earth are unrelated and invented without some cultural exchanging/contact with them . There is no basis for this in history.  In other words, such  total-parallelism has not even a known historical parallel.  
   
It 's well known outside the Americas  that its a state-sponsored ideology of American nations, related to politics.  Virtually all American nations adhering to cultural isolationism, have subjecated the Indians, taken over the whole continent, and maintain the sovereignity over them,  basing it ultimately on the Doctrine of Discovery.
 
The renowned  anthropologist /Americanist Alice B. Kehoe deals with some of  the isolationist dogma and the political mess in American archaeology. (1)
 
..

The bearded figures are probably indigenous Australoids .

 
 
Unsupported opinion. He has not shown one pre-Olmec figure in America with such beards,  facial features and artstyle. They can be linked to the Med/ME where they are antecedent and overlapping in age.  
 
Cryptic makes unsupported claims with a lot of denial.  But this is pretty much what isolationism is all about !
 
 
 
(1 ) Kehoe, Alice B. 1998. The land of prehistory: a critical history of American archaeology. New York: Routledge
 
Star


Edited by Sander - 31-Aug-2009 at 10:05
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2009 at 08:41
Originally posted by tommy

When we talk about the colour of the skin, we always use our own defination, so when Native said they saw a group of people with light colour or white skin, then we immedately refer to European, but I believe In the eyes of those natives who did not have full knowledge of biology and human science, white or light skin colour just meant those group of people were not as coloured as the Native themselves, then there are many options, Mongols, Chinese Japanese, Persian,Egyptian, Berbers even some people from the sub continent?
 
The bearded figures in this topic can be easily linked to bearded caucasoids  from the Med/ME. But there is considerable evidence that people  from the Asian direction had contact with the Americas too, like Chinese ( Before the T'ang, so not Menzies' ideas ) and Indonesians for example.  But  that 's food for other threads.Big smile
 


Edited by Sander - 31-Aug-2009 at 09:14
Back to Top
cavalry4ever View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator Emeritus

Joined: 17-Nov-2004
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2009 at 14:18
Yes. There are Chinese with beards and when I looked at these figures, they looked more like Chinese to me.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cWQvFAPFy0s/SKXf0XIqKHI/AAAAAAAAANg/offwdMYdL9o/s400/chinese.jpg


Edited by cavalry4ever - 31-Aug-2009 at 14:19
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.