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Pre-Columbian and Pre-Viking Europeans in Americas

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pre-Columbian and Pre-Viking Europeans in Americas
    Posted: 30-Jul-2009 at 17:54
This is interesting as it happened in my home state of Virginia as all, interesting from historical perspective stuff. happens in Virginia. There was an archeologist studying Indian arowheads in Virginia. He also had expertise in European arrowheads. He figured out that arrowheads from certain period were identical on both side of Atlantic.
After he published his paper, scientists realized that there was an ice bridge between Europe and North America. Virginia was ice free then and some people used that bridge to move over here.
Intersting proof was the fact that some Eastern Indian tribes have European genetic material.
Another interesting part is that these days some of myths in the migration of people seem to fall really fast. It is now understood that there were many waves of migration to Americas, instead of single one as we were taught a long time ago.


Edited by cavalry4ever - 31-Jul-2009 at 10:08
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2009 at 19:46

That sounds like the Solutreans . The evidence suggests paleolithic migrations from Europe ( apart from Asian migrations ) along the Europe- NE America  icebridge.  Pre-Clovis evidence from Cactus Hill, Virginia fills the gap.

 

Dennis Stanford , head of archaeology at the Smithsonian Institution, and several other archaeologists are strong promoters. Students who visit the National Museum of Natural History are also educated about it. 

 

More and more dogma's are crumbling down.

 


Edited by Sander - 31-Jul-2009 at 10:47
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2009 at 05:39
Originally posted by Sander

More and more dogma's are crumbling down.

 
And then factor in Kennewick man, very ancient remains from Oregon with Caucasoid (Solutrian?)  physical features.  Unfortunalty, a new law designed to prevent descecration of Native American graves prevented the remains from being scientifically studied. I dont think that anthropologists were even permitted to make plaster casts.  Instead, the remains were turned over to local Native American tribes and then reburied in a secret location.
 
I understand that Native American remains were treated badly in the past, but Kennewick Man is no more an immediate ancestor of the current tribal peoples living in the area than local Italians are direct descendents of the "Ice Man". I wish that there could have been a compromise, like reburial after a study.
 
 
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2009 at 10:18
Originally posted by Sander

That sounds like the Solutreans . The evidence suggests paleolithic migrations from Europe ( apart from Asian migrations ) along the Europe- NE America  icebridge.  Pre-Clovis evidence from Cactus Hill, Virginia fills the gap.

 

Dennis Stanford , head of archaeology at the Smithonian Institution, and several other archaeologists are strong promoters. Students who visit the National Museum of Natural History are also educated about it. 

 

More and more dogma's are crumbling down.

 

I read about this long time ago and forgot details. Your post refreshed my memory.
This is interesting link that points to more articles. Thanks!



Edited by cavalry4ever - 31-Jul-2009 at 10:19
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2009 at 13:34
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Sander

More and more dogma's are crumbling down.

 
And then factor in Kennewick man, very ancient remains from Oregon with Caucasoid (Solutrian?)  physical features.  Unfortunalty, a new law designed to prevent descecration of Native American graves prevented the remains from being scientifically studied. I dont think that anthropologists were even permitted to make plaster casts.  Instead, the remains were turned over to local Native American tribes and then reburied in a secret location.
 
I understand that Native American remains were treated badly in the past, but Kennewick Man is no more an immediate ancestor of the current tribal peoples living in the area than local Italians are direct descendents of the "Ice Man". I wish that there could have been a compromise, like reburial after a study.
 
 
 
 
From Wiki-
 

The remains became embroiled in debates about the relationship between Native American religious rights, archaeology and other interested stakeholders.[2][3] Based on the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), five Native American groups (the Nez Perce, Umatilla, Yakama, Wanapum, and Colville) claimed the remains as theirs, to be buried by traditional means. Only the Umatilla tribe continued further court proceedings. In February 2004, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that a cultural link between the tribes and the skeleton was not met, allowing scientific study of the remains to continue.[4]

In July 2005, a team of scientists from around the United States convened in Seattle for ten days to study the remains, making many detailed measurements and determining the cause of death.

The remains are still at the U of Washington, and haven't been reburied even yet.  The scientists had the remains for study for over a year.
 
 
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2009 at 16:04

One of the scientists who sued the  authorities to get the remains of Kennewick man studied instead of concealed, was the same  Dennis Bradford mentioned earlier . Its  interesting that also  America's largest research center, the Smithsonian Institution , has concluded ( and teaches ) that people from Europe  had crossed the Atlantic to the Americas already some 20.000 years ago. Approve

 
All that is independently from the Kennewick  man. But the Kennewick man issue is one of the clear cases that demonstrate  that the authorities (and many scholars, tightly controlled by them ) concealed evidence for political purposes and  dogma protection. Out of panic the army was quickly ordered to dump 1000 of tons of sand on the site. Censored


Edited by Sander - 14-Aug-2009 at 17:16
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2010 at 23:59
The freedom of speech and the freedom of the academic research had beeen violated by this act of the Us army. We must care the interest of the Natives, but at the same time, we have to find out the truth. I think even the natives would not want to live in a world with lies?
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2010 at 07:49
Originally posted by tommy

The freedom of speech and the freedom of the academic research had beeen violated by this act of the Us army. We must care the interest of the Natives, but at the same time, we have to find out the truth. I think even the natives would not want to live in a world with lies?

Before this turns into conspiracy theory. We have  very strong laws against desecration of human remains in US. We cannot keep them in museums anymore. The study was done and confirmed by genetic analysis of Native People. There was even docudrama movie on the Discovery channel recreating how these people migrated to present day Virginia, followed by the interview with archeologist that found spear points.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2010 at 09:12
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Originally posted by tommy

The freedom of speech and the freedom of the academic research had beeen violated by this act of the Us army. We must care the interest of the Natives, but at the same time, we have to find out the truth. I think even the natives would not want to live in a world with lies?

Before this turns into conspiracy theory. We have  very strong laws against desecration of human remains in US. We cannot keep them in museums anymore.
 
I understand your point about museums and the past practice of keeping native American remains for vague "studies" or as "curiosities".
 
Tommy, however, has a good point about need for knowledge. For example, Kennewick Man was never a member of a modern tribe, nor was he an immediate ancestor of the modern tribes who inhabit the area.  As Red Clay posted, a compromise was reached that allowed study. 
 
For remains that are of modern tribes, or are of the immediate ancestors of modern tribes, I can support an immediate return / no study policy.
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 13-Jan-2010 at 09:15
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 07:24
It is a shame that North American Indian (aka Native Americans) have taken such a stance. As a decendant of a Cherokee myself, I find the modern attitude of the tribes, as a direct result of the designation that they have obtained as a result of "Politically Correct" thought, I.e., they have obtained the moniker "Native American", which rightly or wrongly indicates that "nobody", and "No group", populated the Americas before them!

They have been portrayed as a "Noble" race! A race, that unlike the White Man, did nothing to harm the land or its animals, etc.! They were the ancestors of the modern "Green" movement, so to speak.

"Behold the Noble Savage!", etc.!

Add to that the fact that they have been "wards of the state" for so many years, confined to reservations, and kept on the public dole for so long that they have become tribes of alcoholics, and worse! Moves to integrate these tribes into society and get them away from the sorry conditions found on most reservations are opposed by the very Government Agency that was set up to "protect" them! That is the Federal Government thru the Bureau of Indian Affairs, resists any movement of these people from their reservations!

Of course these "bambi lovers", have "noble" attitudes, such as fearing that their wards might well do OK on the outside, and no longer need a Federal nanny! I mean, just what would happen to this bureaucracy if the "Natives" no longer needed them? As a bureaucrat you would not want to loose your position, would you?

Thus, in many cases, these tribes continue to waste away, and they are mostly considered as pests by nearby Americans of other descent since they are considered as drunks and leaches, etc.!

I don't know how many of you know this, but many Native Tribes, are considered a "Nation" seperate but equal, within the USA! In some cases they have their own laws, and police, and judges, etc., that operate a system designed only for the tribe itself! A wonderful example of segregation! NO "integration" is allowed for these people!

On a similar note, Muslim emmigrees in parts of Europe are asking for the same type of consideration, that is they are demanding to be segregated, and allowed to live not under the laws that the rest of the citizens have to follow, but they desire to only observe "Sharia Law!" I hope most of you can see the problems this might cause, and a lot of Europeans are becoming alarmed by these attempts, and some governments have even tended to support them! But, I think recent elections have eliminated most of these politicans?

OK, there is my two cents worth!

Regards,
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 09:05
Opusiola - the myth of noble savage is a stupid European 19 century creation which was discredited long time ago. 
What you forgetting is the systematic destruction of American Indian culture by Europeans. By todays standard it fits into genocide category. 

If you are Cherokee, you may want to read more about their history.
At some time the Cherokee confederacy had a higher literacy among its members than colonists. Politically, it was better organised than colonial riff-raff. Even Ben Franklin noticed that. They had written language and schools. It all was destroyed and their printing press confiscated and put on display in the Smithsonian. You can admire it there. Also Seminole Indians were pretty advanced also. 
If you look at Jamestown settlers, these are really true savages scraped from the bottom of  european social barrel.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 14:43
Cavalry4never,
 
If Sequoia began working on the Cherokee alphabet in 1809, and Ben Franklin died in 1790, where do you get your "facts"?  Oh, you pull them out of your???
 
Guess I should change my moniker to "Real Cav".  Oh, and after 1776, the Americans weren't 'colonists'.
 
 


Edited by lirelou - 27-Jan-2010 at 14:46
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 16:17
Cav! Whether or not it was a 19th century invention, it still has big standing in the Native American movement as well as Hollywood representations for the last 70 or so years!

A photo of a famous N.A. was used in numerous commercials, with a tear in his eye, as trash from those terrible Anglos, blows across his pristine lands!

It is much like old conversations I have had with N.A.'s, who constantly bemoan the lack of movies or television shows that made the N.A.'s lood good! The strange thing was that most of these "crying" N.A.'s were much younger than am I! So, they could not believe me when I told them that when I grew up (1950's to 1960's) I basically saw the N.A. protrayed as a "noble" subject, whilst the White Man, was usually the evil one!

While, I cannot name each Hollywood movie that had such a theme, I can name a popular TV show called "Broken Arrow", where Michael Ansara(sp) played a N.A. sheriff of an entire county! His TV name was "Cochise!"

See; http://www.fiftiesweb.com/tv/broken-arrow.htm And this was in 1956!

So, I am not baffeled by BS!

And, CAV., I have read their history, including a famous Supreme Court decision! But, luckily, they and their "African American" slaves were eventually deposited upon some of the greatest Oil Fields in history! Laugh!

You did know that these savages, who had a written language, an lawyers, and teachers, etc., also had something else the White Man had, that is "Slaves!"

But, of course you already knew that!

And, thanks for the slight! I guess that you did not know that my family also settled in the Jamestowne area! Just about 1635! But, I guess we were then, as now, always poor White trash? Laugh!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 27-Jan-2010 at 18:51
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 18:53
Cav, I knew what your meant! I thougt it was OK anyway! It's as if I have never made a mistake! Yeah, sure! Laugh!
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by lirelou

Cavalry4never,
 
If Sequoia began working on the Cherokee alphabet in 1809, and Ben Franklin died in 1790, where do you get your "facts"?  Oh, you pull them out of your???
 
Guess I should change my moniker to "Real Cav".  Oh, and after 1776, the Americans weren't 'colonists'.
 
 

Sorry, I meant Iroquois Confederacy or Ligue. Thanks for pointing out my error. This error does not diminish the accomplishments of Cherokee Confederacy and Cherokee did have better literacy rate than early Americans.


This is Ben Franklin about Iroquois Confederacy:

"It would be a very strange thing if Six Nations of Ignorant Savages should be capable of forming a Scheme for such an Union and be able to execute it in such a manner, as that it has subsisted Ages, and appears indissoluble, and yet a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies. . . . "


The quality of colonists did not improve with acquisition of citizenship. This is why the Republic was set as an oligarchy and founders mistrusted the common man.




Edited by cavalry4ever - 27-Jan-2010 at 19:29
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 08:27
Ben's quote, obviously made in furtherance of a political argument, does not prove your assertion on Cherokee literacy. You perhaps have a cite we can to to that compares literacy among the Cherokee and their neighbors at a specific time? It would be interesting to see who conducted such a "survey".
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 16:57
Actually, I would suggest that RedClay, only made such a post because of his animosity towards a lot of "dumb White" Southerners?


But, of course, I am probably wrong? chuckle!

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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2010 at 02:39
Originally posted by lirelou

Ben's quote, obviously made in furtherance of a political argument, does not prove your assertion on Cherokee literacy. You perhaps have a cite we can to to that compares literacy among the Cherokee and their neighbors at a specific time? It would be interesting to see who conducted such a "survey".
 
Lirelou. The Cavalry makes claims but rarely substantiates them. He just gallops away .

Surprise us Cavalry , show some good  evidence for that claim of higher Cherokee literacy !

 

 



Edited by Sander - 01-Feb-2010 at 02:43
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