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Why didn't the allies declare war on the USSR?

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why didn't the allies declare war on the USSR?
    Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:35
Why? did you just now realize what a minefield the subject of McCarthy is?  Sweet Ann is far worse.
 
 
The "friendly" attitude toward the Soviet Union shown by the FDR Admin was an artificial one created to give an outside appearence of solidarity in the Allied camp.
Later in the war it has been suggested that FDR was not in full control of his facultys when he met with Churchill and Stalin the last time.  FDR made overtures to Stalin that were completely forgotten by Truman.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:03
"You are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts"
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:22
And C4E, just what "facts" do you perceive that I own? Please give me the "facts" that are only mine?

Trying to be "smart" does not make you look better, it can just lower the esteem that others might have for you!

So, with respect, I merely ask you to clarify your statement above?

BTY, did either of you Red or you, even read my answer above where I wrote, actually concerning the topic of this thread!;

"I would suggest that it was the attitude of the citizens of America, and GB, etc., that prevented such an attack! That, and the friendly attitude shown towards the USSR by the Rooseveldt administration!

If the war had been continued, then it would have resulted in a large vote against any politician who supported it, and a total change in the governments of all of the Allies, other than those who did not permit free elections like the USSR and China!"

So, is my answer wrong?


I like your quote above, may I use it also?

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
Mark Twain



Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 17:27
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:28
You are welcome to the Twain quote. 
What I said is you should not make up facts. Opinions are fine.

Coulter and Glenn Beck are good examples of people making up facts as they go. 
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:29
Beck's latest teaching is just reheating of Birch Society's "Blue Book". These are the same people (John birch Society) that believe fluoride in water is used to control minds of US citizens!
Beck and his followers also believe that on can be communist, socialist, liberal and fascist all at the same time.
These are people that late William Buckley would keep away from conservative mainstream and would refer to to as "vulgarians".

opusiola - you are following  great minds, I recommend you  join (if you did not already) Beck's "University".
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 22:24
Originally posted by cavalry4ever


 

Sorry Mosquito, I hit accidentally edit instead of quote button and messed up your post.

 
I think that you have actually deleted one lol :) But ok as you are the begining mod I have a lot of patience ;) However I think that mods should be especially patient too as to them apply higher standarts than to regular members.
 
But actually I think that we have hijacked this thread and all discuss somthing off topic.
 
And please guys calm down, no reason for the bad feelings towards each other.


Edited by Mosquito - 18-Nov-2010 at 22:34
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 14:13
Why do you guys think people like Opuslola tend to repeat history so much? Its because they make up an imaginary past in their minds. They are also the number 1 violaters of the US constitution. McCarthyism violated citizens' constitutional rights and it i simply persecuting people for having their own opinion.

With regards to the allies not declaring war on the USSR: by the end of WWII europe was in shambles, economies were ruined, tens of millions were dead. Only the insane would want to continue such a war, especially against a power such as the Soviet Union at the time, which had millions of troops under arms.

Although there were skirmished between allied and soviet troops a couple times.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 19-Nov-2010 at 14:31
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 15:16
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

 Only the insane would want to continue such a war, especially against a power such as the Soviet Union at the time, which had millions of troops under arms.
Patton was one of the insane.  Unlike other skilled generals who fought wars because they had to, Patton truly enjoyed warfare and thought he was some kind of re-incarnated "eternal warrior / leader" 
 
Even before his death in the traffic accident, Patton was making very belligerant comments about the Soviets and had ordered his staff to make contingency plans based on a "hypothetical" war with the Soviet Union in Germany.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Nov-2010 at 15:27
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 15:32
I'm not even sure if the allies would have won a land war against the Soviet Union. Western Europe would surely have been overrun.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 18:10
TGS, what ever it is, wrote;

"I'm not even sure if the allies would have won a land war against the Soviet Union. Western Europe would surely have been overrun."

Again, it seems you do not understand that the Soviet Army literally ran upon supplies sent by the USA! There air forces were certainly inferior to the aircraft of the allies, and they still had very basic radio communications!

If indeed the allies had forced the start of hostilities, then the supply lines of the Soviets would have been almost instantly cut, and their armies would have died a few days later! Both literally and, etc.!

Let me go a bit further! Suppose that the Soviets had a 30 day supply of materials to force a counter attack against the Allied forces that stood against them? Could they really expect to suffer the devestation of Allied air power, and know that the only supplies they were to receive could only be exracted from the Allied supply dumps, could they have really pushed to the English Channel?

Q.E.D.!

Edited by opuslola - 19-Nov-2010 at 18:14
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 20:49
Maybe Allies lost interest tinkering with Soviet union after being hammered in their earlier intervention in the russian civil war?
How about previous experiments?
Very few countries fought Russia or Soviet Union and felt like talking about it later.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 20:50
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

 Only the insane would want to continue such a war, especially against a power such as the Soviet Union at the time, which had millions of troops under arms.
Patton was one of the insane.  Unlike other skilled generals who fought wars because they had to, Patton truly enjoyed warfare and thought he was some kind of re-incarnated "eternal warrior / leader" 
 
Even before his death in the traffic accident, Patton was making very belligerant comments about the Soviets and had ordered his staff to make contingency plans based on a "hypothetical" war with the Soviet Union in Germany.
 
 
Was it Patton's insanity or rather unlike most of people in the USA including US goverment, he did realise what and how Soviets really are?
 
Also, was leaving one of the allies and brothers in arms in the hands of Soviets, was it just and right? Thats how the Americans do?
 
 
Not to mention the fact that Soviets after taking Berlin were really exhausted and their forces that were combat were ready not as big as some ppl present. Not to mention the fact that in the conflict against USSR the Allies would have full air superiority.


Edited by Mosquito - 19-Nov-2010 at 21:02
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 08:59
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Was it Patton's insanity or rather unlike most of people in the USA including US goverment, he did realise what and how Soviets really are?
Patton was right about the Soviets, but for the wrong reasons.  Patton simply wanted another worthy opponent be the target of his aggression.  It did not matter whether they were Sovets, zulus or moslems.
Originally posted by Mosquito

Also, was leaving one of the allies and brothers in arms in the hands of Soviets, was it just and right? Thats how the Americans do?
Subjectively, what happened to Poland was wrong.   Realistically, the U.S. was a democracy and not a dictatorship like the Soviet Union and Germany. The American public did not want to fight a war, and especially not an offensive war, with the Soviets after Germany was defeated. 
 
As a side note,  When Polish Jews fought in Warsaw, how much help did they receive from the Home Army or the White Eagles? Is that what Poles do?  Or were the reasons for not helping the Polish Jews complex?
 
Also, how much more suffering would there have been in Poland if the Soviets were driven out city by city and village by village?
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Not to mention the fact that Soviets after taking Berlin were really exhausted and their forces that were combat were ready not as big as some ppl present. Not to mention the fact that in the conflict against USSR the Allies would have full air superiority.
True, they were tired, but the Soviets were also not the mindless, human wave army that many people think they were.  Beating the Germans took soviet skill and soviet numbers.  The Soviet Army in 1945 was a pretty lethal machine.  As you mentioned, air supereority would have won, but it would not have been easy.
 
In addition, the Soviets were not the only ones with a lack of enthusiasm for more war.  As victory over Germany got closer, many "ordinary conscript" American divisions were thinking of  home and performing reluctantly.   By late 1944, even the gentle General Eishenhower noted a pattern of ordinary U.S. Divisions only attacking with overwheliming advantages and moderate German resistance leading to long delays etc.  


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Nov-2010 at 10:00
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 17:54
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
As a side note,  When Polish Jews fought in Warsaw, how much help did they receive from the Home Army or the White Eagles? Is that what Poles do?  Or were the reasons for not helping the Polish Jews complex?
 
 
An American have no right to say somthing like that. The Jews recived as much help as was possible under German occupation, tens thousands of people risked their lifes to help the Jews, also during uprising in Warsaw Ghetto. You should have talked with the Marek Edelman - the surviving leader of Getto uprising -  but unfortunatelly he died last year.
 
 
 
What was possible, was done for the Jews. Or one can even say that more than possible was done but it were Americans and British who refused to help Jews, not Poles. When Polish couriers were reporting to US goverment about holocaust, FDR asked about condition of horses!!!!!!
 
From Wikipedia

Jan Karski (24 June 1914 – 13 July 2000) was a Polish World War II resistance movement fighter and later scholar at Georgetown University. In 1942 and 1943 Karski reported to the Polish government in exile and the Western Allies on the situation in German-occupied Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, and the secretive Nazi extermination camps.

 

In 1942 Karski was selected by Cyryl Ratajski, the Polish Government's Delegate at Home, to perform a secret mission to prime minister Władysław Sikorski in London. Karski was to contact Sikorski as well as various other Polish politicians and inform them about Nazi atrocities in occupied Poland. In order to gather evidence, Karski was twice smuggled by Jewish underground leaders into the Warsaw Ghetto for the purpose of showing him firsthand what was happening to the Polish Jews. Also, disguised as a Ukrainian camp guard, he visited what he thought was Bełżec death camp.[3]

In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Holocaust of the Jews. He had also carried from Poland a microfilm with further informations from the Underground Movement on the extermination of European Jews in German occupied Poland. The Polish Foreign Minister, Count Edward Raczynski, provided on this basis the Allies with one of the earliest and most accurate accounts of the Holocaust. A note by Foreign Minister Edward Raczynski entitled The mass extermination of Jews in German occupied Poland, addressed to the Governments of the United Nations on 10 December 1942, would be published later along with other documents in a widely distributed leaflet.[4]

Karski met with Polish politicians in exile including the prime minister, as well as members of political parties such as the PPS, SN, SP, SL, Jewish Bund and Poalei Zion. He also spoke to Anthony Eden, the British foreign secretary, and included a detailed statement on what he had seen in Warsaw and Bełżec. In 1943 in London he met the then much known journalist Arthur Koestler. He then traveled to the United States and reported to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. His report was a major factor in prompting the West. In July 1943, Karski again personally reported to Roosevelt about the situation in Poland. During their meeting Roosevelt suddenly interrupted his report and asked about the condition of horses in occupied Poland.[5][6] [7]

Karski met with many other government and civic leaders in the United States, including Felix Frankfurter, Cordell Hull, William Joseph Donovan, and Stephen Wise. Frankfurter, skeptical of Karski's report, said later "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference."[8] Karski presented his report to media, bishops of various denominations (including Cardinal Samuel Stritch), members of the Hollywood film industry and artists, but without success.

 
 
 

....America, where Karski went in July 1943, was worse. His report seemed to upset everyone's agenda. Roosevelt, with whom he had a long private interview, was only interested in the arcana of underground conspiracy. The Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, a Jew, spent an hour listening to Karski's story, then told him: "I am unable to believe you." Other prominent Jewish leaders accused him of lying. Faced repeatedly with incredulity or cynicism, Karski went into a form of denial and stopped talking of the scenes he had witnessed.

 
Jan Karski reported in the USA also this:

There were five points that the two men in the Ghetto asked Mr. Karski to pass on to the Allied leaders:

* Preventing the extermination of the Jews should be declared an official goal of the Allies fighting Hitler.

* Allied propaganda should be used to inform the German people of the war crimes taking place and to publicize the names of German officials taking part.

* The Allies should appeal to the German people to bring pressure on Hitler's regime to stop the slaughter.

* The Allies should declare that if the genocide continued and the German masses did not rise to stop it, the German people would be held collectively responsible.

* Finally, if nothing else worked, the Allies should carry out reprisals by bombing German cultural sites and executing Germans in Allied hands who still professed loyalty to Hitler.

Mr. Karski later said that the Jews' proposals were "bitter and unrealistic," as if they knew such a program could not and would not be carried out, and that he had told them their five points went beyond international law.

For the rest of his life he remembered the response of the man accompanying Mr. Feiner: "We don't know what is realistic, or not realistic. We are dying here! Say it!"

Mr. Karski asked what he should say to Jewish leaders abroad. Unhesitatingly his hosts told him that such leaders should consider hunger strikes, fasting to death if necessary, to shake the conscience of the world.

Originally posted by Cryptic

 
 
Also, how much more suffering would there have been in Poland if the Soviets were driven out city by city and village by village?
 
Not much than already was.  People were still fighting after Soviets took over Poland. The last soldier of anti communist resistance in Poland was KIA in 1963. They were called "Cursed Soldiers" and most of them fought to the begining of 50ties.
 
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 21-Nov-2010 at 18:16
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 10:59
What, no anti semitism in Poland?  
 
During the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the Polish Home Army actually charged the Jews for the few weapons (about 20 rifles and pistols) and ammuniton that they provided.  Most of the small number of Polish fighters that fought with the Jews in Warsaw were from communist groups.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Nov-2010 at 11:00
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 12:10
Originally posted by Cryptic

What, no anti semitism in Poland?  
 
During the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the Polish Home Army actually charged the Jews for the few weapons (about 20 rifles and pistols) and ammuniton that they provided.  Most of the small number of Polish fighters that fought with the Jews in Warsaw were from communist groups.
 
 
source please!
 
And you think that Polish underground was equipped with what? Panzer divisions and diving bombers squadrons? When Warsaw Uprising was started Polish underground had ammo for 48 hours of fight. Do you also think that it was easy to smuggle large amounts of arms to Ghetto?
 
Damn I can see Holy Cryptic in such situation risking his and his family life everyday, transporting full wagons of arms and smuggling tanks to Ghetto. It is so easy for some to talk about others and blame them... while your own goverment did nothing, didnt even want to belive the man who risked his life to gather infromations about genocide and who travelled to USA only to inform about atrocities.
 
Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of uprising who was saved by Polish underground would probably call you an idiot or even slap you, as he was use to do with the americans who were visiting him and saying such nuissences.
 
And as for anti semitism, well, there were Jews, who were calling Marek Edelman an antisemite too, inspite of the fact that he was Jewish freedom fighter.
 
About antisemitism in Poland you should ask Jews from Poland, not those from USA. Even the founders of Israel were Polish Jews, but why were they offering jobs in their army to those antisemite Polish officers who couldnt come back to Poland after WW2?


Edited by Mosquito - 23-Nov-2010 at 08:05
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 09:21



Originally posted by Mosquito

Damn I can see Holy Cryptic in such situation risking his and his family life everyday, transporting full wagons of arms and smuggling tanks to Ghetto. It is so easy for some to talk about others and blame them... while your own goverment did nothing, didnt even want to belive the man who risked his life to gather infromations about genocide and who travelled to USA only to inform about atrocities.

Strange ranting....   I said that there were complex reasons for Poles not helping Jews, Any chance that antisemitism was one of them?:

Originally posted by Cryptic

  Or were the reasons for not helping the Polish Jews complex? 

The bizarre ranting aside,  your point is valid.  Continuing the line of thought: No doubt uhmm... holy Mosquito leaves home frequently to fight new wars with powerful nations over countries that he has never been to and whose language he does not speak and whose situation is not a vital concern to him.  Confused

You can believe whatever revisionist history you want regarding Poland and antisemitism. Or you could start with this incident following the German surrender in 1945 and realize that Polish Jewish relations were complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogromv   


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Nov-2010 at 10:47
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 11:09
anti-semitism was prevalent throughout Europe, in the East and in the West, and many Polish citizns collaborated with the Nazis.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 12:05
Originally posted by Cryptic



You can believe whatever revisionist history you want regarding Poland and antisemitism. Or you could start with this incident following the German surrender in 1945 and realize that Polish Jewish relations were complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogromv   
 
Actually you choosed very difficult example, because there is a lot of things which are not clear about this event, especially there is possibility that it was Soviet inspired action. The case is very famous but noone really knows what happend and why. There were present officers of Soviet and Polish communist secret police and intelligence.
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

anti-semitism was prevalent throughout Europe, in the East and in the West, and many Polish citizns collaborated with the Nazis.
 
Probably much less in Poland than for example in France. Those who were collaborating with Germans and especially those who were denouncing Jews to Germans, were reciving death sentence's from the courts of undergound state, which sentences were usually executed.
 
It is also worth to mention that Poland was the only country in occupied Europe, where for hiding Jews people were being imidatelly executed by Germans. Germans were killing not only those who were hiding Jew but also all the people who were living in the same building. There were cases of Polish paesants who were burned together with their famillies and Jews that they were hiding.
In Poland hiding a Jew was more risky than anywhere else. Thousands of Poles were murdered for helping Jews. Some of them were famouse anti-semites who before the war were spreading anti-semite propaganda but during the war sacrified their life's to help the Jews. One of them was for example Jan Mosdorf.
 


Edited by Mosquito - 23-Nov-2010 at 12:21
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 12:24
However it must be also said that some Jews were not saints and in Soviet occupied Poland, since 1939 were cooperating with Soviet secret police and intelligence against Poles, denouncing them to Soviets or even murdering. This is fact, not anti-semite propaganda.
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