Ivar "the Boneless"?

There was a blog post on this at
http://historum.com/blogs/sigurdrifa/30977-ivar-boneless-son-lodbrok.html

If the boneless was not a falsely made up tale (like Sidney's "baneless"), then from the sources that Sidney posted it sounds like he was just disabled in some way that he couldn't walk (maybe back bone, or pelvis, or leg bone). (Bones ~ skeleton.) Being carried around on shield sounds abit like being in a wheelchair. It may not be surprising then that he was strong in upper body, and the other qualities. Btw it is admirable/enviable how Sidney always thinks to check/post original sources. (Where do you get all the early sources from Sid? I know there is Sacred Texts site which i have kept forgetting about.) Its abit of a strange contradiction that one says he did have children and other source says he didn't (perhaps reflecting some people's materialistic/religious "eugenics/evolution" opinions?).

My comment on that historum blog article a year or so ago has been deleted it seems. I was unfairly "indefinitely suspended" (banned) from Historum forum after lowlives there were attacking me on my Arthur's 12 battles and my Wonders of Britain theses. They deleted my Arthur's battles found thread/topic in which some people said very bad things to me (like they deleted my evidences, and deleted the evidence of bad things said to me).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-May-2016 at 05:09

Greetings and peace to all! This is my first post:

Edited by Joe, I swear it - 10-May-2016 at 03:57

Some good points there Sidney. However, it's still remarkable a handicapped child survived to adulthood in such violent times

Edited by Nick1986 - 16-Mar-2012 at 19:26

Do the Chronicles mention how Ivar became lame? If it was from birth he's even more unusual as Vikings usually left crippled and deformed babies to die

Ivar is said to have died in 873 AD, but when did he first get the nickname of Boneless? It doesn't seem to be in the earliest sources (Anglo-Saxon & Irish Chronicles) and appears to be of a later date than those given to his father and brothers.

Saxo Grammaticus, in his 'History of the Danes' (written shortly after 1208) says that Iwar [Ivar] was Ragnar's youngest son, and writes;
"Iwar, who was in his seventh year, fought splendidly, and showed the strength of a man in the body of a boy."
Certainly no hint of a disability there. Saxo gives the nicknames of Ivar's father Ragnar (Lodbrog), and brothers Bjorn (Ironside), Siward (Snake-eye) and Erik (Wind-Hat), but none for Ivar himself.

The later (13th Century??) 'Saga of Ragnar' places Ivar as Ragnar's eldest son, and says that;
"The boy was boneless and there was cartilage where his bones should have been, but when he was young, he grew so strong that none was his match. He was of all men most handsome in appearance and so wise that none was known who was a wiser councillor than he...Ívar had himself borne on staves, as he could not walk, and he had advice for them [his brothers] in whatever they did.”
The same source says that Ivar was carried into and throughout battle on a shield, and that he used a bow and arrow (although that does not preclude his use of other types of weapon). In one battle the troops of the brothers are faced by a fierce sacred cow called Sibilja;
“Ívar spoke with his carriers, telling them that they should bear him forward so that he might be closer to the front. “And when you see the cow come at us, cast me at her, and it shall go one way or the other-that I shall lose my life, or she shall have her bane. Now you must take one mighty elm-tree and carve it into the shape of a bow, along with arrows.” And when this strong bow was brought to him along with the great arrows that they had made, they did not seem to them usable as weapons to anyone. Then Ívar encouraged his men to do their best. Then the troops went with great impetuousness and noise, and Ívar was borne before their battle array. Such a great din arose when Síbilja bellowed that they heard it just as well as if they had been silent and standing still. Then that caused it to happen that the troops fought amongst themselves, all save the brothers. And when this wonder took place, those who bore Ívar saw that he drew his bow as if he held a weak elm branch, and it seemed as if he drew the arrow point back past his bow. Then they heard a louder twang from his bow than they had ever heard before. And then they saw that his arrows flew as swift as if he had shot a strong crossbow and they saw it happen that the arrows came to sit in each of Síbilja’s eyes. And then she fell, but after that she went on headfirst, and her bellowings were much worse than before. And when she came at them, he commanded them to cast him at her, and he became to them as light as if they cast a little child, because they were not very near the cow when they cast him. And then he came down heavily upon the cow Síbilja, and he became then as heavy as a boulder when he fell on her, and every bone in her was broken, and she received her death. Then he commanded his men to take him up quickly. And then he was taken up, and his voice was ringing so that all heard when he spoke, and it seemed to all the army as if he was standing near each man, though he was far off. It became perfectly silent as he gave his orders.”
This source seems to be the one used in the documentary, but while it certainly portrays Ivar as being disabled, he has immense upper body strength, and it would be hard to believe that a person with brittle bone disease would be conscious, let alone able to continue to lead his men, after having been thrown across a battlefield into the path of a raging animal.

Another late source I found, the 13th century 'Tales of Ragnar's Sons', doesn't mention Ivar as having a disability, but does say;
“Ivar the Boneless was king in England for a long time. He had no children, because of the way he was: with no lust or love—but he wasn’t short of cunning and cruelty. And he died of old-age in England and was buried there.”

Are there any other sources for the life of Ivar?

Edited by Sidney - 14-Mar-2012 at 20:13

R This has always been an area of intense interest to me (My username is just a personal short-hand for 'Jarnsida'), so here's my contribution:

 Ivar had children, so it seems unlikely that any impotence would have been public knowledge without his children getting slaughtered by their admittedly-vicious cousins and uncles. Ivar spent the later part of his life ruling out of Dublin (he had probably conquered it well before setting foot in England), and his claimed descendants continued to rule in parts of the British Isles into the 13th century.

 A lot of Lodbrok's children had really bizarre names when translated. Lodbrok, for instance, probably meant 'hairy pants.' Hvitserk is 'white shirt' and so on and so forth. Assuming Jarnsida references armor, only three of his immediate family members do not have names referencing clothing of some kind: Ubba, who had no real descriptive title (but has, in recent popular culture, been referenced as 'the Horrible'), Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye and Ivar the Boneless. Even the names of Ivar and Sigurd seem relatively mundane, especially in comparison to the other names of their contemporaries: Harald Hard-Ruler, Eric Bloodaxe, etc.

 Whatever it was, I doubt it was anything as over the top as not having legs or being a midget. Just based on his family, I'd guess it's something extremely innocuous and probably not something you'd pick up on immediately.

So 'bone' could also mean 'leg'.
Ivar the Leg-less creates a great image of a Danish warrior tanked up on mead. Gives a different image to him having to be carried on a shield. No wonder they didn't trust him with a sword!!

I bet nobody would call Ivar "boneless" to his face. Most of the nicknames were made up after that individual Viking's death

There was a documentary on British TV a year or so ago about Ivar the Boneless.  The maker of the programme had some sort of brittle bone disease himself, and therefore hadn't grown properly, and had suffered multiple bone breakages over the years.  He was putting forward the theory that Ivar suffered from a similar disease to himself.

Can be anything. The bone-erection connotation doesn't exist in modern Scandinavian as far as I know, but it might have in Old Norse - that I do not know. His brothers were known as Ironside, Whiteshirt and Snake-in-the-eye. The former nicknames might come from them being badass respectively being baptised, but it would be interesting to know if Sigurd actually got a snake up his eye or if he just had a dead serpent gaze.

edit:ach, apparently he had something looking like a snake in his eye. So much for subtlety.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 11-Jun-2009 at 13:13