illegals

Illuminati,

Please read my original post again. My point is how the group has contempt for the rule of law. My statement that they are outlaw vigilantes only applies in the context of my post. Since you want me to repeat my argument, I will, but I will be brief.

The group shows contempt for the rule of law because they do not want to follow the proper procedures for the government to follow their policy. Proper procedure is to write to Congress, lobby, protest in Washington D.C.. Society has given the judicial branch the power to enforce the laws. Any enforcement of the law outside of the judicial branch is illegal.

The minute vigilante posse doesn�t want to go through the proper legal channels for their issue to get addressed. The minute vigilante posse insists that they are enforcing the laws, which violates the spirit of the social contract. They engage in an activity to which that the border patrol and the president of the U.S. object.

The minute vigilante posse chose to present themselves as a physical threat to immigrants by allowing weapons in their ranks. As we both agree, protestors with guns around people are dangerous. Even in the middle of the desert, protestors with guns around people are dangerous. The same concerns about people being attack in the desert with impunity apply to volunteers doing it to people crossing the border.

So we have a group of people with contempt for the rule of law, who are �enforcing� the law themselves, and have weapons with them. These are vigilantes.

As soon as the minute vigilante posse forbids weapons, they become peaceful protestors in my eyes.

Take away the weapons and the language about �enforcing the law�, and they are back into the rule of law.

In fact, the manual of the organization comes close to forbidding the use of weapons, advising the volunteers never to get too close to any party crossing the border. A total ban on weapons would have saved themselves of their vigilante image. But as you said, some of these people were too afraid not to have them.

Somehow Martin Luther King Jr. didn�t have guns when protesting in the South for civil rights, and his life was in more danger than any of the volunteers in the desert. I respect those volunteers in the border who went there without their weapons. It takes a lot of character and courage to protest like that.

I will explain the difference between the border patrol and border patrol officers. My analogy with GM was supposed to make this clear, but you decided to be purposefully obtuse. The �border patrol� is the federal agency. As we both have agreed, the agency was opposed to the movement.

Border patrol officers are not the same as the federal agency. Their union is not the same as the agency. The union, as you said, supports the movement, but as the union, not as the border patrol. Many officers sympathize with the movement, but as individual citizens, not as the border patrol.

You can legitimately say that the union and many officers were behind the movement. You cannot say that the border patrol was, because it wasn�t. Their spokesperson objected to the movement and called them a nuisance.

You know as well as I that real Americans follow the rule of law; otherwise you wouldn�t be insisting on the legality of the posse�s actions. That is why the country has not been thrown into civil war every 20 to 30 years as Jefferson said. The founding fathers were justified to act against the rule of law because they had a �long train of abuses.� This is when your quote becomes a justified argument for citizen�s action.

As it happens in most of these debates, we find that we actually agree in many issues. We agree on all the questions that I asked you, even though you didn�t say so directly on your post.

I have no objection to disarmed non-violent patrolling of the border as a form of protest. It is its methods and rhetoric that I object too.

Maybe you guys who support this movement can tell the leadership to drop the guns and its implicit threat of physical violence. You can tell them also to drop the vigilante speech of �taking the law in our own hands.� This will transform the group into a fully legitimate organization.

Originally posted by hugoestr Originally posted by eaglecap Here is the Tucson spokesman for the border patrol saying objecting to the "protest." They are getting in the way, he says, and they are advising to leave the area. Right, the administrative end of the border patrol who are only puppets for Bush. The border patrol men out in the field support the minute men. If they were really breaking the law the government would have put an end to it fast. We really should go after the big buisness that allows this and not so much the immigrants. If there were no jobs then there would be less sneaking across the border. Sorry Hugo but I agree with Illumanati - borders, language and culture!!!! ????? I don't understand the point that you are making, especially the line, "borders, language and culture!" Please explain, although I get a sense of what the answer is.

I wish I had time but three tests in one week but it is a phrase that Michael Savage uses and if you have listened to his show then you will see where I am coming from. I need to be off of this a few days till these tests are over.
also:
The government itself shows contempt for the law by not enforcing the laws on the book concerning the hiring illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Edited by eaglecap

I would like to hear the comments but it all depends on what you define as bigot. I know some liberals take what he says out of context and sometimes he puts his foot in his mouth, we all do. I do not agree with all his views but he is not bigot, maybe some extreme gays or La Raza members might call him a bigot. I think he is right when he compares the flood of illegals into the U.S. to the Germanic invasion into the Roman Empire. I respect your views though because we cannot all think the same, life would be boring. I only listen to him once in a while. Like I said I support legal immigration from Mexico but not illegal from anywhere. Illegal Irish immigrants on the east coast made me mad and I have Irish ancestry. One of my biggest concerns is the enviroment and I would like to think it is your as well. I have been an active Sierra Club member although I disagree with a few of their views, like on hunting. I should rejoin sometime soon!! Got to head home and eat and then back to my notes!! Overload! call my sweetie Heather to!!!

Originally posted by hugoestr Eaglecap, It was the station who fired Savage for bigotry, not me. Frankly, the comparison that he gives sounds to me pretty unkind to Mexicans. Ironic too. After all, it was white Americans who illegally flooded Texas, refuse to learn the language, assimilate to the culture, and eventually declared independence from Mexico. Maybe the paranoid people of the southwest have generational guilt. I wish you luck on your tests. Don't come back until you finished!

I agree our history is not the best but to many of the native tribes in the SW the Spanish and Mexicans were also seen as invaders; Apaches, Navajo Pueblo and others. The white Americans turned out to be worse though.
I cannot change the past but the borders are as they are and we have the right to defend them. Many of these illegals are draining our welfare system dry and bringing in diseases- see my link. I tend to believe Bush is a globalist so it won't change under his administration.
   The Turks invaded Anatolia and pushed out the unconverted Greeks eventually. I respect their borders as they are, the Byzantine Empire is gone forever. The same goes with the USA. I wish there were more easy solutions.
I would like to hear the comment he made so I can judge for myself. Can you find the link? I better hit the notes for today's test and thanks for your views and moral support for the test.

Illegal aliens do not qualify for welfare. The only health care that they get is the bare mininum, if any.

Thats not true. I said in a earlier post that because of so many Illegal aliens coming in they caused a few hospitals to close down in California. But this happens with any foreigner, they just come in and can get the best medical care and leave without paying a dime. There were other causes for the california hospitals closing, but they said that was the biggest reason, they couldn't afford it all. Pretty sad now, this can cause Americans lives to be lost because some illegal alien got into a accident or had a kid here.

It is true that not all these diseases are coming in from illegal immigrants but it is still a concern, especially TB. They use to send back sick immigrants but I suppose that is not PC today. I have read several articles on this subject.

Like it or not the minute men are expanding but I have no problems with them being monitored by human rights groups or ACLU because it will help keep them in line. There is always some idiot who could gum up the whole works. I agree in setting up some type of program that allows the illegals to legally work here and not taken advantage by greedy farmers and big business. I have read a few sad stories about migrant workers being abused and that upsets me as well. They are humans and should be treated like humans but remember I would turn in a German illegal as fast as a Mexican, maybe faster!!!
I have learned in my TESL program is that most Mexican immigrants and other illegals do learn English as a second language, they aren't stupid. I think the problem is only going to get worse with the populaton explosion and the declining enviroment. We are the most destuctive force on this planet!! I wish there were easier solutions to a very complex problem and it is global.
   I am much harsher towards illegals entering a small country like Greece- no questions asked deport them. It ties in with culture and my enviromental concerns but it turning into a tidal wave. I would love to work and live in Greece but not without their permission but I am not desperate either. History repeats itself and I see more ethnic strife if this problem continues in Greece and other European countries-can't change human nature.

Mexico border watch expands


By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

An organization of citizens in California, created last year to support the U.S. Border Patrol, will begin its own Minuteman-style vigil in August, using volunteers to spot illegal aliens in areas around San Diego, organizers said yesterday.... see link



http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050502-125924-3843 r.htm

This is all I have time for but I will get to your review as soon as my tests are over.

http://www.fairus.org/Focus.cfm?keyword=63

http://www.fairus.org/Research/ResearchList.cfm?c=2

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amerworkers.html

http://www.numbersusa.com/index



Bill penalizes firms for hiring migrants
Businesses upset; boycott promised
(This is the way to go- get the companies)
Elvia D�az
The Arizona Republic
May. 4, 2005 12:00 AM

Arizona employers caught hiring undocumented immigrants could lose their business license for six months and be barred from seeking government contracts under a measure that gained preliminary approval Tuesday.....see link

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0504 boycott04.html

Edited by eaglecap

Yes they are all coming here for a better life- Right??

MS-13 GANGS: IMMIGRATION�S THIRD WORLD MOMENTUM







By Frosty Wooldridge
April 14, 2005
NewsWithViews.com

�They come to do the jobs American�s won�t do,� President Bush explains. �They come for a better life.�

According to Newsweek, March 28, 2005, over 10,000 MS-13 gang members illegally crossed our borders looking for a better life, too. Now operating in 33 states, �The Most Dangerous Gang in America� illustrates how illegal aliens cross our borders looking for a better life while they make ours a living nightmare.....see link
Of course I am a bigot for bringing this up to some groups.



http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty49.htm

Eaglecap:

Back off.

I found your last two comments offensive. The first one insults the work ethic and honesty of most illegal immigrants. The second one makes a ridiculous claim of a Mexican invasion, which had nothing to do with the content of your post.

Hate-radio indulges on this kind of irresponsible paranoid speech to pander to their audience. If you wan to call these shows and make these statements, that is fine. Hosts and callers will celebrate them.

AE, however, is not right-wing hate radio. Please change your language accordingly.

I know that you do not have these anti-Mexican feelings. Unfortunately you are embracing and spreading the language of xenophobic bigots. Stop. I don�t want to see you banned from this forum.

If you want to have an intelligent dialogue on the subject, please read my prior post laying down some ground rules on the subject and respond. Otherwise write your statements with appropriate language or don�t post them at all.

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer Eaglecap: Frankly with you. I do not understand your behavior. One day you ask me for a folk tale , cause you are concerned that your little friend Brittany understands part of her mexican heritage and the other day you post all kind of anti mexican posts. I have 2 theories. You are a dumb or a double face person. I have no problem with dumbs, because they can be enlighted and educated. A double face is a different issue. In case that you are merely a dumb, let me educate you. Geography lesson 1: Mexico is not the only country south the Rio Bravo.    Geography lesson 2: Rio Bravo = Grande River.    Demography Lesson 1: MS-13 stands for Mara Salvatrucha.         Demography Lesson 2: Salvatrucha = Salvadorean.     Now, most of your post seems to me more suitable for Historical Amusement. Too bad we have no a forum for your xenophobical links and border folk stories. I ignore how old are you, if you have any eduaction, if you live on the countryside ( living in the country side doesn't means being iliterate ) or in a middle town. As I say, seems to me that you have no opinion by your own, because most of the topics ( including your 2 previous post ) are taken from internet. The day the you decide to discuss in an intelligent matters, not based on a cool bigotry red neck site , type " I do not like mexicans ".. then we can discuss.

Jalisco you are suppose to be a moderator so don't make this personal by name calling. Whenever you point a finger you have three pointing back!!!
I use the internet sources because they are good sources and well researched. Because they do not agree with your beliefs you attack! I know Mexico is not the only country to our south and they are not the only illegal immigrants, half are from Mexico. I have mentioned illegals from all over including China and Russia. I also mentioned the problem in Greece and calling someone a bigot because they do not agree with you is balony. I have known many Mexican Americans who take a stand against illegal immigration so don't make this into a race issue, it is not!!! I am sorry you hate America. I am not double faced and yes I have spent time in Mexico working with the poor but I stil take a strong stand against anyone who would enter this nation without going through the process, anyone!! I visit two kids who are half Mexican but that is not the issue, they do not have fathers. I encourage Brittany to know her Mexican, Irish and German heritage so what is double faced about that? Remember, I am an American first and so are these kids. I live in a universtiy town and I attend the college so I have litttle time to research. I still have nothing against you Jalisco so don't make the issue personal. I am sure you are a nice guy but if all you can do is name call then who is the fool????


Edited by eaglecap