Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedPan-Arabisms Legacy of Confrontation w/ Iran

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pan-Arabisms Legacy of Confrontation w/ Iran
    Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 15:28
Pan arabism is a defeated ideology as are all the other pans. These nationalistic tendencies r brought to the front usually in the time of political upheavals or power vacuums and have a very short shelf life.


You mean no pan arabism Suported by any Arabic Gov!!??
UAE:

Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 15:54

there is also one in kuwait.

and in the UAE, they make it illegal to use the term Persian Gulf, if that isnt pan arabism than what is it?

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:02
Originally posted by http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCo de=37666&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs


Move against distortion of Persian architecture
Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2005 IranMania.com

LONDON, November 12 (IranMania) - Following the erroneous reference by United Nations introducing wind-towers in buildings dating back to the Achaemenid era 3,000 years ago as Arabic, Cultural Heritage News agency (CHN) has launched a website; www.persianpetition.com to object to the distortion of history.

It pointed out that the Dubai-based Best Practices International Award to enhance the standard of lifestyle has misled the United Nations by introducing a significant feature of Persian architecture as that of the Arab civilization.

It called on the Iranians to log in the website and register their protest against the distortion of Persian architecture, CHN added. 

Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:09

thats really funny because yazd has more wind towers than all of the UAE combined probably.

this is ridiculous, racist arabs. (thats right i said it. im sick of being called a chauvinistic racist iranian! its about time we started retaliating, when we are the ones continually being attacked!)

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:10

Originally posted by
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GK03Ak02.html




British Arabism and the bombings in Iran
By Mahan Abedin and Kaveh Farrokh

Following the recent bomb attack in Ahwaz and the riots and bombings in late spring, the Iranian government, as well as other sections of Iranian society both inside and outside the country, has pointed an accusing finger at the United Kingdom.

On the surface the accusations seem implausible, not least because they invoke irrational Iranian fears of British guile and omnipotence. However, there is a mass of evidence that connects the British secret state to Arab separatism in Iran.

Whether these connections make the United Kingdom complicit in the recent troubles in Khuzestan is currently unclear. But, at the very least, the British connection fatally undermines claims that the recent troubles in Iran's strategic southwestern province are either wholly rooted in local conditions or the work of elements in the Islamic republic who seek to "militarize" the country.

British Arabism
An in-depth understanding of the British sponsorship of Arab separatism in Iran requires an understanding of British Arabism in its entirety. Francis Fukuyama, in his description of the American Arabists, opines that they are "... a sociological phenomenon ... Arabists not only take on the cause of the Arabs, but also the Arabs' tendency for self-delusion".

That tendency for self-delusion is vividly expressed by the main tenets of Arab nationalism, which views all non-Arab Muslim peoples as subsidiary to the Arab language and culture. Moreover, Robert Kaplan observes that psychologically the English-speaking Arabist is "obsessed with the Arabs ... a defining Arabist trait". This psychological process is subsumed under British commercial and political interests. This is vividly exemplified in the case of T E Lawrence, as defined by Kaplan (1993): "Lawrence ... among Arabs in the desert ... became pro-Arab; in Whitehall he was pro-Empire."

British Arabism can trace its origins to geopolitical imperialism, namely the need to project political, economic, and if necessary, military power into Persia. The first official Arabists are Sir Charles Lyall (1845-1920) and William Muit, both civil servants of the British East India Company.

Lyall published works on Arabic literature, including pre-Islamic odes, while Muit wrote extensively about the Arab caliphate. It is difficult to ascertain why they were so keenly interested specifically in Arabic, as Arabic, along with Persian and Sanskrit, had been banned from India's educational system since the 1830s. Another early Arabist was a Cambridge professor, E H Palmer, whose knowledge of Arabic was useful in his role as a secret agent in Egypt, where he died in action in August 1882.

It was in the Arab Bureau of Cairo, however, where British Arabism was formally implemented as a tool for the advancement of British geopolitical and economic interests. The Arab Bureau was set up on February 4, 1916. It was from here that the British coordinated their activities with the local Arab sheikhs of the Persian Gulf.

Their main mission by World War I was to foster an Arab rebellion by way of the invention of Arab nationalism, a domain viewed as a "product" by the British Foreign Office and the Arab Bureau. The primary objective was to accomplish the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Arab nationalism, since the conclusion of World War I, has been encouraged to focus itself against Iran, an ideological proclivity that was taken to its logical extremes by the Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein.

Today, the Arab Bureau survives in the form of various innocuous-sounding organizations, namely the Arab-British Center, the CAABU (Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding), the Arab-British Charitable Trust, the Labor Middle East Council, the Anglo-Arab Association and (until 1979) MECAS (Middle East Center for Arab Studies).

While British Arabism has penetrated many sectors of British national life, it is particularly influential in the intelligence, academic and media fields. It is interesting to note that British academic Arabists do not focus on the entire Arab world, which includes Egypt and Libya. Instead, the British academic Arabists have been almost exclusively preoccupied with the eastern Arab world, which is contiguous to Iran (historical Persia) and the Persian Gulf, areas rich in fossil fuels and hence of prime importance to British economic and commercial interests.

To summarize, British Arabism, although a genuine academic discipline and psychological condition, is ultimately a device for furthering British interests in the Middle East. Moreover, the apparent advocacy of Arab issues among British Arabists is selective in three ways:

-They have remained largely silent (or neutral) with respect to the Arab-Palestinian disputes with the Israelis.

-They have opposed the formation of a single unified Arab superstate along the lines proposed by T E Lawrence.

-They actively support anti-Persian views with respect to the role of Persia in the geography, linguistics, anthropology, archaeology, history and culture of Islam, the Arabic world, and the Persian Gulf.

British intelligence and Iranian Arab separatists
The severing of Iran's Khuzestan province and its "Arabization" has been a long-held British goal. In fact, this policy was made clear in the November 2, 1944 editorial of the Times of London, which proposed Iran's dismemberment by having Khuzestan appropriated by the British.

To achieve this long-term objective, British Arabists have supported Arab nationalist activities (academic and military) against Iran and in Khuzestan in particular. Needless to say, this plan neatly converged with the ideology and geopolitical aspirations of Arab nationalists, particularly of the Ba'athist variety.

When Iraq invaded Iran on September 22, 1980, with the stated intent of annexing Khuzestan, the BBC news network and English print media, as well as other major Western media outlets, provided full overage of the Iraqi invasion in the first week.

There were two main premises to the reporting: (a) Iranian resistance would collapse quickly; (b) the Arabs of Khuzestan would fully support the invasion. These premises proved to be utterly unfounded, with Iranian resistance actually stiffening, leading to the permanent expulsion of Saddam's armies from Khuzestan in 1982. The vast majority of Iranian Arabs not only did not support Saddam, but were in fact at the forefront of resistance to the Iraqi invaders.

The failed Iraqi invasion of Khuzestan (which was partly based on British invasion plans dating back to 1937) has been, to date, the most concerted and determined effort to sever the province from Iran. The fact that it failed was a massive blow to small groups of separatists in the area, and they would have likely faded away had it not been for the patronage of the Iraqi and British intelligence services.

Although Iranian Arab separatists have had a presence in the UK since the 1970s, their activities became noteworthy after the 1979 Islamic revolution. Working in concert with Iraqi intelligence services, Khuzestani separatists engaged in low-level sabotage operations against Iranian interests in the UK and mainland European countries.

These sabotage activities reached a dramatic climax on April 30, 1980 when Iraqi-backed Khuzestani separatists seized the Iranian Embassy in London. The subsequent siege lasted for five days, during which time Iraqi agents killed two of the embassy's staff. But the terrorists offered virtually no resistance when Britain's elite Special Air Services stormed the embassy building, killing five out of the six Iraqi agents.

The dramatic events at the embassy were very much the exception to the rule, as far as British pressure on UK-based Khuzestani separatists was concerned. Indeed, from the early 1980s, the UK has been home to almost all expatriate Khuzestani separatists (with a small number also based in Baghdad), where their activities are tolerated as long as they do not engage in brazen acts of violence on British soil.

Behind the scenes, however, British toleration in the 1980s translated into active cooperation with the separatists. In some cases, the British even shared separatist agents with the Iraqi intelligence services. In two specific cases dating back to 1985, the British used Khuzestani separatists to infiltrate the Iranian consulate in Manchester and the Iranian Air Force logistics office in the National Iranian Oil Company office in Westminster.

It is interesting to note that both the Iranian consulate in Manchester and the logistics office were closed down by the British government in 1987. It is unclear whether information supplied by the separatist agents was a decisive factor in the closure of these establishments.

But the spirit of public toleration and private cooperation collapsed, almost overnight, after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Saddam's brazen challenge to the West and Iraq's desire to change the geopolitical balance of the region forced Western intelligence services to cease their cooperation with their Iraqi counterparts. Khuzestani Arab separatists were one of the many victims of this sudden collapse in relations between Iraq and the West.

The Gulf War of early 1991 and the catastrophic defeat of Iraq further added to the separatists' woes. Today, Khuzestani separatist spokesmen in the UK claim that their cooperation with Iraqi intelligence services ended after the Iran-Iraq War in 1988.

While it is clearly convenient for the separatists to make such claims, this stance raises far more questions than answers. Firstly, intelligence links (particularly those that are deep-rooted and underpinned by ideological affinity, as in the case of the Khuzestani separatists and the Iraqi Ba'athists) are too complex to be severed so immediately and abruptly.

Secondly, given that Khuzestani separatism (because of its unpopularity with almost all Iranian Arabs) is only viable when allied to the foreign policy of a powerful state, severing links with the Iraqis would have been followed by patronage by another state.

But this was not the case. The only other state with the historical motivation, connections and unique resources to consistently support the separatists is the United Kingdom, but evidence strongly suggests that the British authorities dramatically decreased their cooperation after the events of 1990 and early 1991. Indeed, in some cases the British even put up serious obstacles, for instance making it difficult for separatists to travel to countries such as Greece, Cyprus, Turkey and Lebanon to meet with their Iraqi handlers.

British government opposition notwithstanding, Khuzestani separatists continued to operate in the UK in the 1990s. In many cases they were absorbed by the Anglo-Arab organizations mentioned earlier. While in many cases these organizations are engaged in genuine academic, media and advocacy work, there is little doubt that they are ultimately controlled by the British secret state.

The US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003 and the consequent pressures this has exerted on Iran has made Khuzestani separatism (and other separatist movements in Iran) relevant insofar as it can be used by the West as a pressure point on Tehran. The recent events in Khuzestan are a good example of this.

Trouble in Khuzestan
The riots and bomb attacks that occurred in Khuzestan in late spring, coupled with the latest bombing, have been attributed to widely different causes. The Iranian government claims that both the riots and the bombings were essentially the work of foreign elements.

The Khuzestani separatists in the UK, anxious to deflect attention from separatist violence, pin the blame on elements in the Islamic republic which seek to militarize the country. Both positions suffer from serious flaws.

Firstly, while the Iranian government is correct to attribute the bombings to foreign elements, it is not being wholly truthful when it dismisses the riots as foreign-inspired. Iranian Arabs in Khuzestan have a number of economic grievances, with roots that may go back decades. These economic woes were sharply exacerbated by the failed Iraqi invasion of Khuzestan, which destroyed the livelihoods of many Iranian Arabs. It would be safe to assume that economic grievances were, at the very least, a factor in the riots of late spring.

Secondly, the Khuzestani separatist position that the bombings were the work of the Iranian government smacks of clumsily constructed conspiracy theory that does not stand up to even perfunctory scrutiny. The statement by the Khuzestani separatist spokesman that the bombings were either the work of the "Pasdaran or the Basij" immediately discredits their argument, as the Basij and the Pasdaran (Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps) are effectively the same entity.

The contention that terrorist organizations do not target their own people is clearly false, as virtually every terrorist organization in the world has victims (in varying degrees) among the people they purports to represent. Furthermore, claims that the Khuzestani separatists are "non-violent" fly in the face of their actual record (the seizure of the Iranian Embassy in London and the killing of two of its employees was clearly not an example of peaceful activism) and is in fact oxymoronic: how can dismembering a nation and producing false historical narratives be achieved by "non-violence"?

Sources in Tehran are in little doubt that the recent bombings are the work of separatists in Khuzestan who are ultimately controlled by the remnants of the former Iraqi intelligence services. These intelligence services controlled impressive intelligence and sabotage networks in Khuzestan, and it is safe to assume that some of these networks have remained intact since the collapse of the Ba'athist regime in April 2003.

The motivation behind the bombings is not altogether clear. While sources in Tehran claim that former officers of Iraq's Istikhbarat and Mukhabarat agencies are keen to export the Iraqi insurgency into Iran, it is unclear how this can be done with infrequent and isolated bombings in Khuzestan.

A more likely explanation is that the remnants of Istikhbarat and Mukhabarat are exacting revenge on Iran for the targeted assassinations of their members since the collapse of the Ba'athist regime. A generally under-reported feature of the troubles in Iraq is the very careful and systematic targeting of influential elements in the former regime by either Shi'ite organizations (in particular the Badr Organization - formerly the Badr Corps - of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq) or by covert Iranian operatives in Iraq. The Badr organization has been particularly prolific in this regard, and has recently been accused of even targeting Arab Sunni pilots in the Iraqi air force.

Iranian allegations that the British government is complicit in this terrorist campaign have as yet not been substantiated by any evidence on the ground. But warming relations between the British government and the very small number of Khuzestani Arab separatists in the UK does raise concerns about the British government's position on this complex situation.

But it is important to place these concerns in perspective, not least because, contrary to their claims, the Khuzestani separatists have no proper organization in the UK. Their presence is reducible to a few key personalities who run several websites that try to create the impression that there are large socio-political networks behind them. [1]

What all these websites have in common is the desire to produce a spurious ethnic counter-narrative. To do this the Khuzestani separatists (and their British patrons) amalgamate a series of suppositions, half-truths and myths. All of this is underpinned by the assertion that the Arabs in Khuzestan constitute a majority, yet no valid ethnic statistics have been produced to verify such claims.

Little mention is made of the fact that Khuzestan is inhabited not only by Arabs but by an array of ethnic groups, including Bakhtiaris, Behbahanis, Lurs in the north, Afshari and Qashqai tribes, and Persians in the major cities.
Moreover, the separatists' counter-narrative is guided by a very biased selection of information and the retroactive Arabization of Iranian history and civilization. Furthermore, claims that Arabs in Iran constitute a persecuted minority are as false as they are amusing. In fact, since the Islamic revolution of 1979, the Iranian government has gone out of its way to promote the Arabic language (at the expense of Persian) in its drive to "Islamize" Iranian society.

It is also important to note that Iran's current defense minister, Ali Shamkhani, is an ethnic Arab from Khuzestan. Claims by Khuzestani separatists that the Iranian regime is engaged in the persecution of minorities is particularly strange when one considers the fact that the Islamic republic has shown extreme sympathy for Arab causes both inside and outside of Iran.

Conclusion
The terrorist campaign in Iran's Khuzestan province is essentially a by-product of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. There can be little doubt that the terrorists are ultimately controlled by insurgent networks in Iraq. There is simply no other rational or convincing explanation for these unusual events.

Moreover, the deteriorating security situation in Iraq makes it likely that Khuzestan will continue to experience terrorist bombings for the foreseeable future.

While the Iranian government is keen to implicate the British in the terrorist campaign for obvious propaganda and counter-propaganda reasons, the British have much to answer for their historical connections to Khuzestani separatists. Furthermore, it is clear that the British see the situation in Khuzestan, and the presence of separatists in the UK, as a useful pressure point on the Islamic republic, as the stand-off over Iran's nuclear infrastructure steadily deteriorates into a crisis.

In the final analysis, Khuzestani Arab separatism does not pose any serious threat to Iran's territorial integrity. The only entity with the overriding ideological and geopolitical motivation to provide significant support to Khuzestani separatists was a strong Iraqi state, and this was blasted away - probably forever - by the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Note
[1] The main so-called "Ahwazi" websites are the following:

-al-Ahwaz This site has a fancy introduction along with a "national anthem". Their symbols are almost a carbon copy of Ba'athist Party insignia (note the Ba'athist eagle). There is a Persian version of the al-Ahwaz site.

-The Ahwaz Studies Center purports to be an academic establishment, when in fact it is an anti-Persian site complaining of "ethnic cleansing". This is a dangerous and misleading term - falsely implying violence. For instance, the article on Minoo Island conveniently fails to mention that in any industrial project people are relocated.

-The London-based British-Ahwazi Friendship Association is a relatively new site and claims as its chairman Daniel Brett, an Englishman. The site is linked directly to the aforementioned Ahwaz Studies Center, the Democratic Solidarity Party of Ahwaz, Ahwaz Human Rights Organization, and al-Ahwaz Television. Interestingly, the site is also selectively linked to other separatist organizations such as "The Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan" as well as to the "Iraqi Turkmen Human Rights" organization. Of interest is the "treasurer" of the British-Ahwazi Friendship Association: Mansour Silawi-Ahwazi, who also hosts a separate and particularly amusing site. On this he posted An Arab National Re-Birth Searching for its Identity in an attempt to convey the impression of a separate Arab state since 4000 BC; ie about 4,500 years before the efflorescence of Arab civilization on the Arabian peninsula.

Mahan Abedin is the editor of Terrorism Monitor, which is published by the Jamestown Foundation, a non-profit organization specializing in research and analysis on conflict and instability in Eurasia. The views expressed here are his own.

Dr Kaveh Farrokh has a PhD from the University of British Columbia, specializing in the cognitive and linguistic processes of Persian. He has researched and written extensively on the role of British imperialism in Persia, as well as the pan-Turanian movement. His book, Sassanian Elite Cavalry AD 224-642 was published by Osprey Publishing. He lectures on the history of pre-Islamic Persia at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. A new book encompassing Persia's military and cultural relations with the Greco-Roman world between 553BC-637 AD is due to be released in the fall of 2006. 

**Land of Aryan you did it again. Instead of deleting this post I will remind you that any copy/pasted post without a clear summation by the poster will be deleted in the future.** 



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:07
This Flash file is only stuff about pan Iranism



Edited by Land of Aryan
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:16
that is the only pan iranist thing i have ever seen in my whole life. we need more people like the ones who made that.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:37
& another stuff:

v. 27
Through fire and arms not far from the Black Sea,
He will come from Persia to occupy Trebizond:
Pharos, Mytilene to tremble, the Sun joyful,
The Adriatic Sea covered with Arab blood.

wowowowow, Nostradamus was radical pan Iranist!!!
Back to Top
Super Goat (^_^) View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 22-Oct-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 180
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:46
What is an Arab anyways?

I though it was a linguistic term rather than an ethnicity.
Back to Top
merced12 View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 24-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 767
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:51

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

This Flash file is only stuff about pan Iranism

 you are crazy ,thanks good job

http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
Back to Top
merced12 View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 24-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 767
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:00

in fact in turkey 13 millions kurd live

                            0.250 armenians live

in iran 22 millions azeri turks and 8 millions other turks live

http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp?place=Asia

my source

oh land of aryan you are very funny

2+2=4



Edited by merced12
http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:06
Originally posted by merced12

in fact in turkey 13 millions kurd live

                            0.250 armenians live

in iran 22 millions azeri turks and 8 millions other turks live

http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp?place=Asia

my source

oh land of aryan you are very funny

2+2=4

actually, azerbiajani's were originally neither turkic nor iranic. but now, its half and half, some of them are iranic and some are turkic. the iranian zeri's are more iranic then the turkic ones in azerbaijan republic.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:08

you turks would happen to be complaining about that video would you?

i dont think you guys have a right to call that funny my super nationalistic pan turkic friends

and in case you dont know, land of aryan did not make that video.

why has no on answered my question????

why has there never been pan iranism?

 

@super goat: arab is an ethnicity.



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:12

infact, azerbaijani's were first made iranic even before the turks came into the area.

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/articles/language_azeri_pe ople_pan_turkism.php


Language of Azeri People and Pan-Turkism
By: Mohammad Taghi Sbokddel, January 2004


1. Azarbaijan
The name of Azarbaijan has been one of the most renowned geographical names of Iran since 2000 years ago. Azar is the same as "Ashur" which means fire. In Pahlavi inscriptions, Azarbaijan has been mentioned as 'Oturpatekan', while it has been mentioned Azarbayegan and Azarpadegan in Persian writings. It is Azarabadegan in Shah Nameh and Arabs knew it as Azarbijan or Adarbijan.

With regard to the emergence of Azarbaijan, the writing by Strabo, the famous Greek geographer seems to be the most important of all writings.

When the rule of Achaemenid dynasty came to an end, Alexander from Macedonia conquered Iran. A worrier called Otupart rose in Azarbayegan and prevented that land, which was part of the Median empire and was known as 'Lesser Mede' to be captures by Greek worriers. The land was thereafter called Oturpatekan.

Ahmad Kasravi, an Azeri pundit, opined that Oturpat was made up of Otur, meaning Azar or fire and Pat, which was later corroded to Paad and Baad, which meant guard.

In June 1918, the dignitaries of Mosavat (equality) Party, established a government in Caucasus and called it Azerbaijan following suit with policies of Turks. At that time, the naming gave rise to controversies and some even went as far as announcing that, "As if Azerbaijan is a land, which has been divided in two parts; one part lying to the north of Aras river and the other part lying to the south."

The disputes became so hectic that Azarbayegan proper was called 'Southern Azerbaijan' while Aran and Shiravan were called northern Azerbaijan to deceive the Iranian youth.

Mosavat Party whose real name was 'Mosavat Islamic Democratic Party' was established in 1911 in Baku with the goal of unifying Turks in Asia Minor.

Mosavat Party followed the policies of Pan-Turkists and advocated unity of all Turk-speaking people.


2. Language of Azeri people
The language spoken in Azerbaijan is one of the dialects of the Persian language, which was known to us as Azeri tongue.

Ahamd Kasravi has proven that based on evidence, the local language of Azeri people, at least, to the end of Mogul era (middle of the 8th century after Hegira) has been Azeri. After that, during a 150-year interval from the time that Chengiz dynasty became defunct since establishment of Safavids, the Azeri language was gradually replaced by Turkish dialect.

During recent year, Manouchehr Mortazavi, in an article on the ancient language of Azerbaijan, had opined that Azeri has been the language of Azerbaijan people and it has included various dialects.

However, since there has been discrepancies with regard to the original language of Azerbaijan people, the compendium of research results is as follows:

Ibn al-Nadim writes in his book al-Fihrist that the language of Iranian people could be divided in five classes including Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi (language of people in Khuzestan) and Soriani. Relying on what Ibn Muqaffa' said, he opined that Dari was the language of courtiers while Farsi was the language of priests and scientists and the language of people of Fars; Khuzi was the language that kings and dignitaries used in their intimate talks. Soriani was the language of people of Iraq while Pahlavi was spoken by people of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah (Mede), Nahavand and Azerbaijan. His writing goes as such:

"Ibn Muqaffa' said: Iranian languages are five: Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi and Soriani. Pahlavi is attributed to Pahleh, which includes five regions of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah, Nahavand and Azerbaijan. Dari is the language of cities in Madaen and courts of kings. Dari is eastern. Farsi is the language of priests and scientists. Dari is mostly spoken by people of Khorassan, Balkh and some regions in Fars. Khuzi is spoken by kings and dignitaries, but Soriani is the language of people of Iraq."

Out of the abovementioned languages, only two languages, including Dari, spoken in east Iran including Khorassan, and Pahlavi that was spoken by people in Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan are of concern here.

The authors belonging to the first centuries after Hegira have called the language of people of Azerbaijan as 'Azeri Pahlavi' and sometimes 'Azeri' and maintained that the said language was different from the language spoken in east Iran.

However, the difference was not so big as to make them incapable of comprehending what other peoples said. Nasser Khosrow in his itinerary says, "I arrived in Tabriz in 438 A.H.... I saw a poet in Tabriz named Ghetran. He was a good poet, but could not speak Persian correctly. He came to me with poetry books of Manjik and Daqiqi and asked any word that he could not understand..."

I presume that Nasser Khosrow meant Dari Persian which was known to him but some of whose words were not known to Khorassani poet. Marquat??, the famous Iranian scholar has written that, "Pahlavi language is, in fact, the same as Azeri language."

Yagoubi lived in the third century A.H. In his book, al-Boldan, he says the language of Azeri people was "Azeri Pahlavi".

Abu Abdollah Bashari Moqaddasi in his book divides Iran into eight climatic regions noting, "The language of these regions is Persian; however, some of them speak Dari and some complicated; and all those dialects are called Persian."

Masoudi believed that Pahlavi, Dari and Azeri were of the same origin and combination of their works was the same and all of them were considered among Farsi dialects.

Abu Abdollah Mohammad ibn Ahmad Kharazmi, who lived in the fourth century A.H., attributes Persian language to people of Fars and the language of priests and believes that Dari was the language of courtiers. With regard to Pahlavi language, he writes:

"Pahlavi is one of the Iranian languages used by kings. The work has been attributed to Pahleh, which encompasses five lands: Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan."

Estakhri says in his book, al-Masalek and al-Mamalek that the language of people of Azerbaijan is Arabic and Persian.

I believe that despite its tremendous pressure, Arabic could not overwhelm Persian and was rejected first in Khorassan and then in other parts of Iran.

Eranski??, the famous Russian scholar writes: "After pushing Arabic back in Khorassan and other regions, Persian did the same in other areas."

Two factors were influential in this regard. Firstly, Arabs were controlling a wide empire from Sir Darya River to Spain and their dominance in Iran was not so much as to be able to overwhelm the Iranian element. Secondly, the conflict between Iranians and Arabs, especially in political, military and literary fields was intense.

Ibn Hauqal writes, "The language of people of Azerbaijan and most people of Arminiyeh is Persian and Arabic if rife too. There are few merchants and landlords that speak Persian and who don't know Arabic."

Two points are worthy of mention: Firstly, the language of Azerbaijan people was Persian. Secondly, Arabic was not common among villages and lay people and only part of people knew it.

Ibn Hauqal says the languages spoken by people of Armenia and Aran were part of Persian. He writes, "Some tribes from Armenia and the like speak languages that are like Armenian. The same is true about people in Dabil and Nahvi (Nakhichevan). The language of Barza'eh people is Arani and the mountain known as Caucasus is theirs around which heathens with various languages live."

Yaghout Hemavi, who lived in the sixth and seventh century A.H. says with regard to the language of Azeris, "They speak a language called Azeri and nobody can understand it but themselves."

There were many dialects in Persia that were not intelligible to anybody but those who spoke them. One of them was the dialect of Talesh people in Gilan, which is unintelligible to people from other regions.

Hamdollah Mostofi, who lived in the seventh and eighth centuries A.H., refers to language of people of Maragheh and writes, "Their language is altered Pahlavi."

With regard to people of Talesh and their language, he writes, "People there are white and follow the religion of Imam Shafei. Their language is Pahlavi with Jilani dialect," he noted.

Homam Tabrizi, the renowned poet of Azerbaijan who lived in the 7th and 8th centuries A.H. has written many poems in Azeri Pahlavi.

Ezzoddin Adel ibn Yousof Tabrizi, who lived during 8th and 9th centuries A.H. has also written poems in Azeri dialect of Pahlavi.

There is no sign of Turkish words in those poems.

Undoubtedly, the dialect of Azeri Pahlavi was spoken in Azerbaijan until the advent of Safavid period, but it became obsolete in villages and cities since the middle of the Safavid period and only remained in hard-to-pass regions.

After this introduction, it is clear that if some try through sophistication to prove that Azerbaijan has been inhabited by Turks from old times, and it was only afterwards that some Aryans speaking Iranian languages conquered there accidentally, their claims would be nothing but purposeful lies.

Now it has become evident that the Turkish language rife in Azerbaijan, has been the language of what people from the start and how it has been imposed on people living there. It is ridiculous that some people consider it as the mother tongue of Azeri people and invite the people to replace it for the official Persian language. It is obvious that no learned people will get themselves down to forsake the language of Firdawsi, Sa'adi, Mowlavi and Hafiz and trade it for the faulty, backward language that was brought in by the marauding Turkmans. This is a foreign language that did not belong to the language of Iranian ancestors and was imposed on them.

The zealous people of Azerbaijan know these facts and will never follow a group of gullible guys who are stooges of other people.

We hope to prevent this vice to happen to people of Azerbaijan and we are sure than they know better than anybody else the main purpose of those who try to propagate it. We are sure that the Truth will always overcome Vice and demonstrate its power.


3. Pan-Turkism
Pan-Turkism movements reverberated in Baku since many years ago, or exactly since 1908, when young Turks seized power in Istanbul. During those years the putsch carried out by Unity and Progress Committee ended despotic rule of Sultan Abdolhamid and Turkist tendencies substituted Islamic school of thought.

The vanguards of Pan-Turkism stemmed from Turk peoples in the Russian empire that were in turn influenced by Pan-Slavism, which were formed in Russia during 19th century. In 1904, Yousof Anghchur Oghlu, a Tartar from Russia, which was later known as Yousof Aghchur, published a treatise titled, "Three Methods of Politics", which gradually gained importance as the manifest of Pan-Turkism.

During World War I, Pan-Turkist activities in Baku, which was dominated by Tsars of Russia, was limited to publication of periodicals. What is the main purpose of such periodicals as Yeni Foyouzat (New Bounties) and Shalaleh that while loyal to Tsars had made refining Turkish language in Caucasus their main objective and now laud Pan-Turkism and its worse alternative Pan-Turanism?

The theorists of Pan-Turkism believe that all ethnic groups and nationalities from Eastern Europe to Great Wall of China, which enjoy language, religious and traditional commonalties are, in fact, a single nation and should come together as a big nation and fulfill their historical mission in the face of other big civilizations such as European, Arab, Indian and Chinese civilizations. Their views, however, cannot be supported by scientific realities. Most great nations are made up of a single dominant race or, at least, ethnic variation of that race. An example is the United States of America, that while not older than two and a half centuries, is mainly made up of people from Anglo-Saxon or German stock. In the same way, people in Canada, Australia and New Zealand mainly hail from north or south European origin.

Pan-Turks claim that all people from beyond the straits to the end of Central Asia, ... are peoples from a single large nation, which have been divided due to historical injustice and their historical duty is to come together under a single flag.

They produce several reasons, the most important of which is the common language. They claim that all those languages were originally a single language that were later changed due to unfavorable conditions.

This claim is quite baseless, because those various languages could be divided in several categories:

1. Tribes known as Turks were serving Samanid kings in Central Asia during the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.H. and then they accepted Islam and began serving Abbasid caliphs and then established Ghaznavid dynasty and ruled Afghanistan and half of Iran.

2. Oghuz or Ghoz tribes invaded Iran from Central Asia and in addition go Ghaznavid, they did away with such Iranian dynasties as Al-e Bouyeh and Al-e Ziar and established Seljuk government, which in addition to the whole Iranian plateau ruled Asia Minor and Iraq, Arabs and the current day's Syria up to Mediterranean and even conquered Baghdad and made the Abbasid caliphs their stooge.

3. Mogul tribes, led by Chengiz invaded the whole Iran, Asia Minor and the Arabian Iraq and established the rule of Mogul ilkhans.

4. Tartar tribes first conquered the northern parts of the Central Asia and northern coasts of the Caspian Sea and then bolstered their forces under the command of Teimur and attacked Iran, Iraq and Caucasus to establish Gurkani government.

Therefore, the claims that all the above peoples were of a single origin, that is the land referred to as Turan, is baseless.

Pan-Turks go as far as introducing Mohammad Hossein Shahriar, the famous Iranian poet as follower of Turkish poets. Even if they gather a number of Azeris educated in Istanbul or Ankara, under 'Urmia Conference' and call for separation of Azerbaijan from Iran and its annexation to Turkey, they will not be able to dampen patriotic sentiments of Azeri people.

Even today, the difference among the language of those tribes referred to by Pan-Turks is so wide that Turkmens do not understand the language of Kyrkyz people and Uzbeks do not comprehend what people of Azerbaijan say. If such differences did not exit, there is no reason to assume that people of Iran's Azerbaijan are from a single origin with people of Anatolia because, firstly, Turkish language was imposed on people of Azerbaijan since a couple of centuries ago and before that they spoke Persian. Secondly, profound historical ties that date back to the time of Zoroaster have linked Azerbaijan with other parts of Iran so strongly that they cannot be taken apart. History has proven that anytime that foreigners hatched a plot to take Azerbaijan away from Iran, the people of Azerbaijan formed the front line of struggle to thwart that plot.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Behi View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2268
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:14
The flash sounds Unify the IRanian, If Pan Iranism means Unify peoples,
I 100% agree with it.

bot it would be B####### as Pan Arabism or Turanism, with such racism,
it is againest all Iranian belives, Then I'll be 10000% enemy of such this action

anyway, non of them do not exist
Back to Top
merced12 View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 24-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 767
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:17

actually in kudrs in turkey more turkic do u know

i talk reality but you dont

in reality http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp look plz

and i dont want to red apple and most of turk

every turkic country brothers but united i dont think so



Edited by merced12
http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:21

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

The flash sounds Unify the IRanian, If Pan Iranism means Unify peoples,
I 100% agree with it.

bot it would be B####### as Pan Arabism or Turanism, with such racism,
it is againest all Iranian belives, Then I'll be 10000% enemy of such this action

anyway, non of them do not exist

i find it really hilarious that the turkish forumers came in here and laughed at the one pan iranist clip.

there isnt even pan iranism, it just rising due to pan turkish and pan arabist attacks on iran.

i find it really how turks would laugh at such a thing, with all the things they claim and believe to be true

did you know that when ataturk took control of turkey, Persian was the language of culture and arabic was the language of politics? turkish was only spoken by the peasants!

ataturk, in an effort to change that, started taking all the persian and arabic words out of turkish in an effort to "turkify" the whole nation (this is also why for many years, up to a few years ago i think, kurds were not allowed to learn their own language in schools!).

but after awhile, ataturk realised that the persian and arabic influence on turkey was too much for him to take it all out so guess what he did?

he came up with a law, that declared that the origions of humanity were turkic, and therefore, all languages and cultures were turkic also. in this manner, he declared everything in turkey as turkic, and thus today, we have turks that actually believe that people such as Rumi were turkic, and that some civilisations, not ever having any turkic roots, were also turkic, like the azeri's for example.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
Iranian41ife View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 24-Dec-2005
Location: Tajikista
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:21
Originally posted by merced12

actually in kudrs in turkey more turkic do u know

i talk reality but you dont

in reality http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp look plz

and i dont want to red apple and most of turk

every turkic country brothers but united i dont think so

read my above post!

kurds are turkic??? see, this pan turkic guy proves my point.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:24
and I thought pan-turanists were crazy 
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:25
Instead of making this a pan Arab (which I do not see since no Arab  here makes such a case on this thread), pan Iranian or pan Turkish thread, I will throw this topic into the frying pan where it belongs. Such nationalistic claims or denials are not fitting for the level of discussion I care to read. Closed
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.