Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...
    Posted: 29-May-2009 at 23:00
Originally posted by bgturk

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Not precisely on topic, but I was wondering: Is that you, bg_turk? The same bg_turk that was on the forum years ago? If so, welcome back; I've missed you! If not, know that you had a wonderful namesake. Smile
 
-Akolouthos

Hi Akolouthos,
Yes its me. I forgot the password to my other account so i am using this new one. Nice to see you all too. ;-)
 
Hooray! I've missed the heack out of you, buddy. Smile
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 08:48

Originally posted by akritas

FYROM's  is a a multi-ethnic state only to the papers. Slavmacedonians have block the Albanians from the UN talks as regards the State name issue because they  know  that Albanians are more ready to accept a compromise on the name  in exchange for a swift NATO and EU accession.

I really don't know so much about FYROM's internals, but few things like FYROM allowing minority languages being used in local administration. FYROM might not be a heaven for minorities, but certainly it is as multi-ethnic state.

Your thesis that one scholar that involve with the ancient history doesnt have the right to deposit  his/hers opinion as regards modern cultural circumstances  is dogmatic. Every scholar-specially with that acedemic range-  is free to express his opinion.
They have any right to such opinions as persons, but not as classicists, as this is obviously outside their expertise.

Tell me one Balkan state that not make assimilation policies all these years before accuse Greece  for that ?
My point was not to accuse Greece, but to show that Greeks have the least endangered identity and culture in northern Greece. Consequently FYROM can't be accused of cultural genocide.

Your grandma calls herself Makedontsi or Makedonci in the local Slavic language and not Macedonian
A Greek Macedonian(ancient, medieval and modern) identified as Makedonas 2500 years now.
So? Is any Greek Macedonian out there having 2500 years old? Both Macedonians of FYROM and Greece know themselves to be Macedonians since they were born. Shouldn't them both be allowed to regard themselves as Macedonians?

 

Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 09:16
Guys before labeling this thing as a lobbyist thing, just make an whois on the domain. It is Steven Miller who started this. He has been pretty annoyed in the past on the issue. Whether you like his style or not, it is not a Greek suggestion. Greeks have opened and have opened numerous sites to express their frustration.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 09:42
Originally posted by Flipper

Guys before labeling this thing as a lobbyist thing, just make an whois on the domain. It is Steven Miller who started this. He has been pretty annoyed in the past on the issue. Whether you like his style or not, it is not a Greek suggestion. Greeks have opened and have opened numerous sites to express their frustration.
Perhaps confusing, but when reading or writing "Greek lobby" I understand primarily lobby for a "Greek" (yes, I know not all Greeks would support it) cause, not that the lobbyists themselves are Greeks.
 
Anyway, there was an exchange of public letters between Stephen Miller and Dan Tompkins:
 
etc. (if you browse the archives you'll find many good points on Ancient Macedon or on the modern FYROM vs Greece issue)
 
Also, it seems Stephen Miller was initially answering to this:
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 10:15
Yes, i'm aware of Miller's initial letter.

In any case I can agree on some points mentioned on this thread. Miller and the rest of the scholars have the authority to judge from a historical view (ancient history to be precise). In that part they're doing their job very well (it's miller + some other scholars leading this). However, that would normally be enough. The political judgement was unecessary. It would be more than enough if they wrote their scholarly comments and ask for mr Obamma to take those into consideration in understanding why Greeks are annoyed.

The political agenda has no need to be expressed by mr Miller. He could simply include some balanced articles by other people (eg. political analysts, journalists) and make the same point with less "frustration". Besides there are plently of them favouring his cause.

I'm glad some non-Greek scholars made such a move, but i believe if the letter was formed as I described above, it would be no room for criticism or doubt.


Edited by Flipper - 30-May-2009 at 10:20


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 10:56
Originally posted by Flipper


The political judgement was unecessary. It would be more than enough if they wrote their scholarly comments and ask for mr Obamma to take those into consideration in understanding why Greeks are annoyed.


Mate, I think they shouldn't have written this letter at all. All their comments should be published in professional journals and related only to historical questions -- ethnicity of Alexander, language spoken by Ancient Macedonians etc. Explanation of why Greeks are annoyed is out of their professional expertise.
.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 11:03
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Flipper


The political judgement was unecessary. It would be more than enough if they wrote their scholarly comments and ask for mr Obamma to take those into consideration in understanding why Greeks are annoyed.


Mate, I think they shouldn't have written this letter at all. All their comments should be published in professional journals and related only to historical questions -- ethnicity of Alexander, language spoken by Ancient Macedonians etc. Explanation of why Greeks are annoyed is out of their professional expertise.


I can agree that it would be optimal. I guess mr Miller thought it would not have the same public impact though. As for an explanation why Greeks are annoyed is a personal view of Miller who has spend time in Greece digging in Nemea. In some cases, that could be more accurate than an outsider, in some cases not.

In the end we all have our views, whether we're experts on it or not. Look at us here (allempires in general not this thread). How we choose to express ourselves is a matter of taste that can be judged.

About a previous comment of yours.

Originally posted by Anton


Albania should be involved as there is huge ethnical Albanian component and Albania can be as a state representing albanian interests.


They are involved and they intent to give suggestions soon if the issue is frozen. The Albanian minority is strong but still on a low profile which is pretty healthy if you ask me.


Edited by Flipper - 30-May-2009 at 11:12


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by Flipper

I can agree that it would be optimal. I guess mr Miller thought it would not have the same public impact though. As for an explanation why Greeks are annoyed is a personal view of Miller who has spend time in Greece digging in Nemea. In some cases, that could be more accurate than an outsider, in some cases not.

In the end we all have our views, whether we're experts on it or not. Look at us here (allempires in general not this thread). How we choose to express ourselves is a matter of taste that can be judged.

I agree with you, but we don't write open letters to leaders of most powerful countries, do we? And even if we were writing nobody would listen to us as we are (most of us) amateur, not professionals. Whereas those people are professionals, their opinion is more influencial although not necessarily more balanced or unbiased. Miller's position didn't look balanced to me at all, by the way.
.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 16:13
Originally posted by Anton

I agree with you, but we don't write open letters to leaders of most powerful countries, do we? And even if we were writing nobody would listen to us as we are (most of us) amateur, not professionals. Whereas those people are professionals, their opinion is more influencial although not necessarily more balanced or unbiased. Miller's position didn't look balanced to me at all, by the way.


We might not send letters to Obamma but trust me i'm pretty sure the guy receives all types of letters regarding the most absurd cases.

Obamma however has visited the Panmacedonian (Greek assosiation) association in USA, so it's not that he ignores the matter.

Miller is no authority in social sciences and we already said that. Besides, the rest is his field of study and he has right to possition himself as he thinks it's suitable. It's not about being biased or not.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 22:42
I think he behaves just exaclty as Arnaiz-Villena with his paper on genetical similarity between Jews and Arabs. He screwed up this work not due to failours in his field of study but because he made a political comment at the end of the paper.

Edited by Anton - 30-May-2009 at 22:50
.
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:20
Originally posted by Anton

...... as Arnaiz-Villena with his paper on genetical similarity between Jews and Arabs. .......

Even you comparison is weak because your lack of your arguments and the avoid my remark that are TWO letters and your comment stick in the second letter,  I shall remind you Arnaiz-Villena  made  two  other similarities Greeks-Sub-Saharan and Japanese-Africans. Also 3 to 9  scientiets that  undersigned  Arnaiz-Villena  paper are  Slavmacedonians. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in these contemporaries researches, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza that has the same academic range as some of the Classists that undersigned this letter.

Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:38
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

Your grandma calls herself Makedontsi or Makedonci in the local Slavic language and not Macedonian

A Greek Macedonian(ancient, medieval and modern) identified as Makedonas 2500 years now.

In the Slavonic languages of FYROM and Bulgaria the adjective Macedonian, both in its ethnic and regional provenance is spelled in an identical form as makedonski. On the other hand, in the Greek language the same adjective Macedonian, in its regional/cultural/historical context, appears as makedonikos (-i or -o for the feminine and neuter endings).

I am not sure I understand your point here. So in Bulgarian it will be Makedonec in Greek it will be Makedonikos. Where is the difference? To me it is essentially the same.
 
Dont play with the words. I repeat them -with blue fonts- again since you avoid some of my remarks.  I know that you are Bulgarian and not recognize  diffrent nationality and language -as Greece do- since you consider them as Bulgarian.
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

So the problem indicated in the English language and the term "Macedonian".Thus, the term "Macedonian"  to denote such an identity in Greece not only fails to respect Hellenic cultural heritage and the identify of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians living there, but also threatens to create a serious confusion or even a potential clash over identities in the whole region.
But your protests also fail to respect their name, used for at least several generations. What is the difference again?  
I expalined it in my previous comment.
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

One solution is the name of the State and the nationality to be for all usages with the Slavic form. FYROM has rejected this in 1994.

Variants like Slavomakedonec or Makedonoslav or whatever else sound weird and is not what used to be their name. Why don't you guys call yourself Greekomacedonians or Hellenomakedonikos (or how would it be according to Greek language grammar)? Because it sounds stupid. Similar logic have people in Skopje.

I  spoke for Makedontsi or Makedonci as identified themselves in theirs language and not for the variants that you speak.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

You confuse the letters.
No I don't. I read both and they are about the same stuff and one is used as a basis for another. Anyway, the main question is -- who are those people to decide how a particular group of people should call themselves? And how one of them can offer Greece to annex an independent European state?
No they are not the same staff. That's why 248 World Professors  undersigned this letter because Miller avoid any sarcasm.

Edited by akritas - 31-May-2009 at 06:39
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:43
Originally posted by Zagros

The only difference it seems in your analogy is that Mexico did actually exist and exist within that territorial context where as FYRM, even in its current context, is a very recent fabrication.
Because the problem discover from some people  with the split of the Yugoslavian federation (1991) that's not mean that was not exist.
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:56
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

Your grandma calls herself Makedontsi or Makedonci in the local Slavic language and not Macedonian
A Greek Macedonian(ancient, medieval and modern) identified as Makedonas 2500 years now.

So? Is any Greek Macedonian out there having 2500 years old?
I said  ancient, medieval and modern.
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Both Macedonians of FYROM and Greece know themselves to be Macedonians since they were born. Shouldn't them both be allowed to regard themselves as Macedonians?
And how segregate or identify a Macedonian from Greece  from a  Macedonian from FYROM if both use the same name ?
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 10:41
Originally posted by akritas

And how segregate or identify a Macedonian from Greece  from a  Macedonian from FYROM if both use the same name ?


That's not actually the problem. The problem is education. An identity is being built with historical falsification. I'm not talking the early slav macedonian years, but what followed. The early book printings and now the cases of the Rosseta stone and the racistic video that was shown on national tv.




Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 10:43
Originally posted by Anton

I think he behaves just exaclty as Arnaiz-Villena with his paper on genetical similarity between Jews and Arabs. He screwed up this work not due to failours in his field of study but because he made a political comment at the end of the paper.


I don't think you really believe what you just wrote. In the one side you have a very inlikely theory with controversial methodology and on the other side you have something that has been said by many scholars before Miller, that are authorities in the subject.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 10:58
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by akritas

And how segregate or identify a Macedonian from Greece  from a  Macedonian from FYROM if both use the same name ?


That's not actually the problem. The problem is education. An identity is being built with historical falsification. I'm not talking the early slav macedonian years, but what followed. The early book printings and now the cases of the Rosseta stone and the racistic video that was shown on national tv.


Flip I leave out the known historical revensionism of the FYROM educational system  crucial part of the known ideology  slavmacedonism or pseudomacedonism. I am staying only in the self-identification as express in the English language and in the noun "Macedonian".


Edited by akritas - 31-May-2009 at 10:59
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 11:03
How interesting this might be, I do believe Mr Obama has bigger problems, like the collapse of the American economy, to think about :) 
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 11:39
Originally posted by akritas

I shall remind you Arnaiz-Villena  made  two  other similarities Greeks-Sub-Saharan and Japanese-Africans. Also 3 to 9  scientiets that  undersigned  Arnaiz-Villena  paper are  Slavmacedonians. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in these contemporaries researches, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza that has the same academic range as some of the Classists that undersigned this letter.

 
Actually you are wrong, most of his works are still being cited very well by other colleagues. Regarding similarities of Japanese amd Africans -- I wouldn't cite this letter of Cavalli-Sforza frequently. It was a typical blackmailing, rather than critical review. Anyway, my comment was about his political comment that he made, something he has no expertise about. Here I see an analogy with the letter you have posted in this thread.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by Flipper


I don't think you really believe what you just wrote. In the one side you have a very inlikely theory with controversial methodology and on the other side you have something that has been said by many scholars before Miller, that are authorities in the subject.
 
There is nothing controversial in his methodology, Filipp, even though not everybody agrees with his conclusions. Besides, there is no agreement among scholars between ethnicity of Ancient Macedonians and you know it very well.  So, even in this respect both cases are similar. But once again my major point was that both Arnaiz-Villena and Miller made a political comment which is unacceptable for a scientist. With some obvious exceptions of course.


Edited by Anton - 31-May-2009 at 11:48
.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.207 seconds.