Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...
    Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:42
The only difference it seems in your analogy is that Mexico did actually exist and exist within that territorial context where as FYRM, even in its current context, is a very recent fabrication.


Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by Anton

 
Originally posted by scholars

            The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. 

 
This map is used frequently in bulgarian textbooks to describe geographical territory over which there were territorial claims  between Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. What is so wrong with the map itself?
In FYROM textbooks used to describe "ethnotical" and "historical" territory and geographical.
More in
 
 
I give you one more example that happen in other continent. Under the title "Anti-Illegal Immigration Group Calls for 'Absolut' Vodka Boycott," Fox News published on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 a report that covered an advertisement of Absolut Vodka, which showed an 1830's map of Mexico and the United States where most of the modern western United States was still part of Mexico. The ad headline was "In an Absolut World".  People got angered and the company issued an apology.!!!
 
 
Could anyone imagine how do the Greeks feel when the map is not an advertisement, but appears in FYROM government sponsored publications, including schoolbooks?
How would an American feel if the Mexican government was responsible for the map shown above? 
Can anyone imagine if the government of Mexico published the above map what would the reaction of the official United States be?
This is exactly what Greece and to a lesser extent, Bulgaria are facing every single day with the government of the FYROM.
 
Finally  in the below picture you can see the present FYROM PM Nichola Gruevski   on  04 February 2008, shown placing a wreath on the monument on the Bulgarian and FYROM's hero Goce Delchev. One can clearly see the map showing FYROM as Macedonia to include also the northern Macedonia province of Greece and part of Bulgaria, thus indicating their intentions to continue their struggle of taking this part away from Greece and Bulgaria and uniting it with their country.
 
 
 
The same map with the same "geographical borders".
 
Originally posted by Anton

 
Originally posted by scholars

The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. 
I wonder why didn't these people at least google the story with the banknote before including it to the letter to Obama?  It was never used as a banknote and actually even never officially printed. The fact that some nationalists print some shit and sold it on streets does not speak much about the official state position. I saw many Greek nationalists maps of Greece including half  Turkey, does it mean that this is "unhealthy territorial inspirations" from the side of Greece?
 
This is minor question, of course, but this is how wrong impression is created in people who are not familiar with the question.
 
This banknote was printed  for publish usage from the FYROM administration on 15 January of 1991 but somehow was stoped.The name of the bill was "makedonka"  and  the official money of the FYROM , DENAR, which consist of 100 DENI, has been introduced in circulation 20th of April 1993. All these scholars that undersigned this letter they know the historical background of this FYROM moovement. More informations in http://antikviteti.net/cms/modules/articles/article.php?id=29
 
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:42
Originally posted by Parnell

To be perfectly fair, I'm sure Bush only gave one moments thought to calling it the Republic of Macedonia, mainly out of conveniance and the fact that the name looked prettier than FYROM!
actaully he (the USA) was biased, as FYROM played a part of the USA arch in the region, starting from Kosovo inc Albania. When Kosovo was fully prized from Serbia, skopja lost a bit of its importance in the scheme of things. Greece and the USA never have got along at that geopolititcal level. The name issues is just posturing and petty politics for the USA, no importance.

Obama wont heed this letter to be honest, this is way to small time for him and in my opinion rightfully so.

 i dont expect others to think much of this at all. This is between Greece and FYROM with indirect effects going toward regional organistions.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:51
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Here's an earlier draft of the letter ending with an irredentist suggestion: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2009-February/010451.html
 
There are quite a few Macedonian scholars around the world. I supposse they should write an open letter to Obama citing this draft  Smile 
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:53
Originally posted by Leonidas

  i dont expect others to think much of this at all. This is between Greece and FYROM with indirect effects going toward regional organistions.
 
This is not between Greece and Republic of Macedonia only, but Bulgaria, Albania and to lesser extent probably Serbia must be involved in finding solution for this issue.
.
Back to Top
bgturk View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 04-Jun-2007
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:17
Originally posted by Leonidas


Obama wont heed this letter to be honest, this is way to small time for him and in my opinion rightfully so.

 i dont expect others to think much of this at all. This is between Greece and FYROM with indirect effects going toward regional organistions.


The mistake that people make is to assume that the Obama policy will be different to that of Bush. On minor matters like this, American foreign policy is generally continuous, and is handled by the same old bureaucrats.

And the circumstances that have lead those bureaucrats to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name in 2004 are unlikely to have changed now. Tangible political consideration must have lied behind the recognition, rather than some abstract theory about the origins of an extinct people that had lived thousands of years ago. The argumentation in the letter is, therefore, irrelevant to the US decision, and is unlikely to change it.


Edited by bgturk - 29-May-2009 at 14:19
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:21
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Here's an earlier draft of the letter ending with an irredentist suggestion: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2009-February/010451.html
This letter has nothing to do with the posted one in this topic.
Prof Miller in his website also has publish and this letter that was a response to the accuracies of the "of Archaeology" magazine that promote FYROM as another home of the Great Alexander.
Be more cautious please.
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:32
Originally posted by akritas

This letter has nothing to do with the posted one in this topic.
Prof Miller in his website also has publish and this letter that was a response to the accuracies of the "of Archaeology" magazine that promote FYROM as another home of the Great Alexander.
Be more cautious please.
That's even worse, the site holding also this:
 
Allow me to end this exegesis by making a suggestion to resolve the question of the modern use of the name "Macedonia." Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. And that would appear to be acceptable to the modern residents of that area since they claim to be Greek by appropriating the name Macedonia and its most famous man. Then the modern people of this new Greek province could work on learning to speak and read and write Greek, hopefully even as well as Alexander did.
 
So irredentism is dangerous when comes from FYROM but acceptable when it comes from Greece or its lobbyists?
 
However, the two letters hold obvious signs of a same discourse, the later one polished for an audience which would likely not welcome a violent anti-FYROM rant. For example:
 
Jan 22, 2009:
When Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia (Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103) – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, did he write it in Slavic?  When he wrote the Bacchai while at the court of Archelaos did he not write it in Greek even as it has survived to us?  Or should we imagine that Euripides was a “Macedonian” who wrote in Slavic (at a date when that language is not attested) which was translated into Greek?
 
May 18, 2009:
Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia [linked refs: Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103.] – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek.  While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek.  Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.
 
 
Jan 22, 2009:
What was the language of instruction when Aristotle taught Alexander?  What language was carried by Alexander with him on his expedition to the East?  Why do we have ancient inscriptions in Greek in settlements established by Alexander as far away as Afghanistan, and none in Slavic?  Why did Greek become the lingua franca in Alexander’s empire if he was actually a “Macedonian”?  Why was the New Testament written in Greek rather than Slavic?
 
May 18, 2009:
Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad.  Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning.  Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan.  They are all written in Greek.
The questions follow:  Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”?  Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 29-May-2009 at 14:41
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:41
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

This letter has nothing to do with the posted one in this topic.
Prof Miller in his website also has publish and this letter that was a response to the accuracies of the "of Archaeology" magazine that promote FYROM as another home of the Great Alexander.
Be more cautious please.
That's even worse, the site holding also this:
 
Allow me to end this exegesis by making a suggestion to resolve the question of the modern use of the name "Macedonia." Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. And that would appear to be acceptable to the modern residents of that area since they claim to be Greek by appropriating the name Macedonia and its most famous man. Then the modern people of this new Greek province could work on learning to speak and read and write Greek, hopefully even as well as Alexander did.
 
So irredentism is dangerous when comes from FYROM but acceptable when it comes from Greece or its lobbyists?
 
However, the two letters hold obvious signs of a same discourse, the later one polished for an audience which would likely not welcome a violent anti-FYROM rant. For example
 
Jan 22, 2009:
When Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia (Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103) – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, did he write it in Slavic?  When he wrote the Bacchai while at the court of Archelaos did he not write it in Greek even as it has survived to us?  Or should we imagine that Euripides was a “Macedonian” who wrote in Slavic (at a date when that language is not attested) which was translated into Greek?
May 18, 2009:
Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia [linked refs: Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103.] – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek.  While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek.  Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.
 
 
The letter that sent to Obama written from Professor Miller and undesigned from 247  Classical Scholars.
As regards the phrase ... Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. ... that written and sent it  in an letter to the archaelogy magasine  is an sarcasm  for the Slavmacedonians because want to be descents of the ancient ones.
 
Anyway you can e-mail him and ask him for further details.


Edited by akritas - 29-May-2009 at 14:43
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by akritas

The letter that sent to Obama written from Professor Miller and undesigned from 247  Classical Scholars.
As far as I am concerned they could be 248 engineers arguing they don't agree how FYROM builds its airports.
I'm leaving aside the questions of ancient Macedon, especially those controversial aspects which this letter fails to acknowledge, but since when Classical studies deal with modern identities? With the history of the modern Balkans? 
 
As regards the phrase ... Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. ...is an sarcasm  for the Slavmacedonians because want to be descents of the ancient ones.
Double standards. Any symbol or discourse from FYROM, no matter how unofficial, innocent, or even sarcastic, which relates to Greece is augmented and distorted and turned into an accusation of irredentism.
 
Anyway you can e-mail him and ask him for further details.
I see enough in his letters, I don't need further details.
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 15:13
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

The letter that sent to Obama written from Professor Miller and undesigned from 247  Classical Scholars.
As far as I am concerned they could be 248 engineers arguing they don't agree how FYROM builds its airports.
I'm leaving aside the questions of ancient Macedon, especially those controversial aspects which this letter fails to acknowledge, but since when Classical studies deal with modern identities? With the history of the modern Balkans? 
These Scholars aim in the cultural identity and not in the national. Antony D. Smith  remarks that there are two main kinds of ethnic extinction in the full sense: genocide and ethnocide, which is sometimes - at times misleadingly — called «cultural genocide». In one sense genocide is a rare and probably modern phenomenon. It includes those cases where we know that mass death of a cultural group was premeditated and the basis of that targeting was exclusively the existence and membership of that cultural group.
Greeks  from  Macedonia, in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; They instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of theirs identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
This is the point of the letter as regards the connection with the modern identity
and history at the Balkans.
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

As regards the phrase ... Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. ...is an sarcasm  for the Slavmacedonians because want to be descents of the ancient ones.
Double standards. Any symbol or discourse from FYROM, no matter how unofficial, innocent, or even sarcastic, which relates to Greece is augmented and distorted and turned into an accusation of irredentism.
Its your opinion. You can mail him as I said if you want......
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

Anyway you can e-mail him and ask him for further details.
I see enough in his letters, I don't need further details.
...but you dont doing.


Edited by akritas - 29-May-2009 at 15:14
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 15:22
Originally posted by akritas

These Scholars aim in the cultural identity and not in the national.
First thing is that those scholars have no expertise in judging modern identities, cultural or of whatever nature. Second thing (which proves the  first given they undersigned that monstrosity) is that FYROM-ers do not have a "cultural identity" of "Slavs" (how they are repeatedly called), actually there's no such cultural identity (leaving aside that FYROM is actually a multi-ethnic state).
 
 
Antony D. Smith  remarks that there are two main kinds of ethnic extinction in the full sense: genocide and ethnocide, which is sometimes - at times misleadingly — called «cultural genocide». In one sense genocide is a rare and probably modern phenomenon. It includes those cases where we know that mass death of a cultural group was premeditated and the basis of that targeting was exclusively the existence and membership of that cultural group.
Greeks  from  Macedonia, in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; They instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of theirs identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
This is the point of the letter as regards the connection with the modern identity and history at the Balkans.
There's no evidence whatsoever that the culture of Greeks in Macedonia is any immediate danger, on the contrary, Greece is rather famous in Balkans for its assimilation policies and it was criticized repeatedly for its flawed policy against minorities. The claims of identity rape and cultural genocide are unfounded and rather say something about those holding such claims.
 
The Moldovans from Romania (which has a historical region named in Moldova and its inhabitants are named consequently) generally do not feel insulted by the existence of a Moldovan nation, though the latter includes also ethnic Russians and Ukrainians.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 29-May-2009 at 15:22
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

These Scholars aim in the cultural identity and not in the national.
First thing is that those scholars have no expertise in judging modern identities, cultural or of whatever nature. Second thing (which proves the  first given they undersigned that monstrosity) is that FYROM-ers do not have a "cultural identity" of "Slavs" (how they are repeatedly called), actually there's no such cultural identity (leaving aside that FYROM is actually a multi-ethnic state).
FYROM's  is a a multi-ethnic state only to the papers. Slavmacedonians have block the Albanians from the UN talks as regards the State name issue because they  know  that Albanians are more ready to accept a compromise on the name  in exchange for a swift NATO and EU accession.
 
Your thesis that one scholar that involve with the ancient history doesnt have the right to deposit  his/hers opinion as regards modern cultural circumstances  is dogmatic. Every scholar-specially with that acedemic range-  is free to express his opinion.
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by akritas

Antony D. Smith  remarks that there are two main kinds of ethnic extinction in the full sense: genocide and ethnocide, which is sometimes - at times misleadingly — called «cultural genocide». In one sense genocide is a rare and probably modern phenomenon. It includes those cases where we know that mass death of a cultural group was premeditated and the basis of that targeting was exclusively the existence and membership of that cultural group.
Greeks  from  Macedonia, in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; They instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of theirs identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
This is the point of the letter as regards the connection with the modern identity and history at the Balkans.
There's no evidence whatsoever that the culture of Greeks in Macedonia is any immediate danger, on the contrary, Greece is rather famous in Balkans for its assimilation policies and it was criticized repeatedly for its flawed policy against minorities. The claims of identity rape and cultural genocide are unfounded and rather say something about those holding such claims.
Tell me one Balkan state that not make assimilation policies all these years before accuse Greece  for that ?
 
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 16:59
Originally posted by bgturk



And the circumstances that have lead those bureaucrats to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name in 2004 are unlikely to have changed now. Tangible political consideration must have lied behind the recognition, rather than some abstract theory about the origins of an extinct people that had lived thousands of years ago. The argumentation in the letter is, therefore, irrelevant to the US decision, and is unlikely to change it.
erm the first part of my post alluded to that. The US has plans, FYROM was or is a part of that. Greeks already feel screwed by the US so this wasnt going to lose anything the USA havent already lost. Just aggravates, and anyhow the US has many options in the region.Obama wont be nearly as aggressive as Bush but he has a million other things to change or modify than this little spat.

Off the top of my head;Israel, iran, NK, iraq, afghanistan, Russia, even friggen pirates, not to mention citi group, AIG, general motors, a non-health system, oil, green house gases, 500,000 + getting laid off in any month....yeah this would be problem number 459.

Bad timing akritas put the issue in the bottom drawer for a not so rainy day. Greece needs to think where its going to fund its next budget from, certainly not enough tax payers for it.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 17:11
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Leonidas

  i dont expect others to think much of this at all. This is between Greece and FYROM with indirect effects going toward regional organistions.
 
This is not between Greece and Republic of Macedonia only, but Bulgaria, Albania and to lesser extent probably Serbia must be involved in finding solution for this issue.
since every local nation has a bias i am not sure they can add any value. For that reason FYROM looks up to the big boys from afar not their 'enemy' neighbors for solutions. Either way Greece will simply say no to the EU/NATO door, while Skopje builds a bigger Alexender statue to p*ss off poeple like akritas. Sofia or Tirana can do nothing to stop the impasse. The US struggled for f sake, and even it really really wants them to kiss and make up, makes things easier for everybody especally the USA. Smile

Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 20:26
Originally posted by Leonidas

  since every local nation has a bias i am not sure they can add any value. For that reason FYROM looks up to the big boys from afar not their 'enemy' neighbors for solutions. Either way Greece will simply say no to the EU/NATO door, while Skopje builds a bigger Alexender statue to p*ss off poeple like akritas. Sofia or Tirana can do nothing to stop the impasse. The US struggled for f sake, and even it really really wants them to kiss and make up, makes things easier for everybody especally the USA. Smile
 
Albania should be involved as there is huge ethnical Albanian component and Albania can be as a state representing albanian interests. Bulgaria holds part of Macedonia and thus is basically in a similar position as Greece, and also can support Macedonians in their claims as soon as they are not crazy :) I do not know about Tirana but Sofia can certainly help them to develop economically and politically and pursuade other EU states to push on Greece in this stupid EU ban.
.
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 20:33
Not precisely on topic, but I was wondering: Is that you, bg_turk? The same bg_turk that was on the forum years ago? If so, welcome back; I've missed you! If not, know that you had a wonderful namesake. Smile
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 21:17
Originally posted by akritas

Greeks  from  Macedonia, in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; They instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of theirs identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
What makes this position different from a similar position of a Macedonian from FYROM? Can't  they be insulted by the fact that they cannot be known as Macedonians (as they called themselves for more than 150 years) without being confused by others as related to Greece province? What is so insulting to be confused with this state anyway? My grandmom calls herself Macedonian sometimes (which is not contradiction with Bulgarian in her case) --  should she be offended if somebody thinks she is Greek?
 
This is the point of the letter as regards the connection with the modern identity
and history at the Balkans.
No, that wasn't the point of the letter. The point of the letter was that those people (Macedonian) don't have right to call themelves by the name they (or at least many of them) used for quite many years. This point was defended by weak arguments including misleadding and wrongly interpreted stories.
 
Sarcasm that you mentioned cannot be used in such a delicate situation. Those people, Akritas, are scientists, they should think twice or even more before they write. Especially if they write an official letter published in mass media.
 


Edited by Anton - 29-May-2009 at 21:19
.
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 22:20
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

Greeks  from  Macedonia, in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; They instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of theirs identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
What makes this position different from a similar position of a Macedonian from FYROM? Can't  they be insulted by the fact that they cannot be known as Macedonians (as they called themselves for more than 150 years) without being confused by others as related to Greece province? What is so insulting to be confused with this state anyway? My grandmom calls herself Macedonian sometimes (which is not contradiction with Bulgarian in her case) --  should she be offended if somebody thinks she is Greek?
Your grandma calls herself Makedontsi or Makedonci in the local Slavic language and not Macedonian

A Greek Macedonian(ancient, medieval and modern) identified as Makedonas 2500 years now.

In the Slavonic languages of FYROM and Bulgaria the adjective Macedonian, both in its ethnic and regional provenance is spelled in an identical form as makedonski. On the other hand, in the Greek language the same adjective Macedonian, in its regional/cultural/historical context, appears as makedonikos (-i or -o for the feminine and neuter endings).

So the problem indicated in the English language and the term "Macedonian".Thus, the term "Macedonian"  to denote such an identity in Greece not only fails to respect Hellenic cultural heritage and the identify of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians living there, but also threatens to create a serious confusion or even a potential clash over identities in the whole region.
 
One solution is the name of the State and the nationality to be for all usages with the Slavic form. FYROM has rejected this in 1994.

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

[QUOTE=Anton][QUOTE=akritas]
[QUOTE=Anton][QUOTE=akritas]
This is the point of the letter as regards the connection with the modern identity
and history at the Balkans.
No, that wasn't the point of the letter. The point of the letter was that those people (Macedonian) don't have right to call themelves by the name they (or at least many of them) used for quite many years. This point was defended by weak arguments including misleadding and wrongly interpreted stories.
 
Sarcasm that you mentioned cannot be used in such a delicate situation. Those people, Akritas, are scientists, they should think twice or even more before they write. Especially if they write an official letter published in mass media.
 
You confuse the letters.


Edited by akritas - 29-May-2009 at 22:21
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 22:44
Originally posted by akritas

Your grandma calls herself Makedontsi or Makedonci in the local Slavic language and not Macedonian

A Greek Macedonian(ancient, medieval and modern) identified as Makedonas 2500 years now.

In the Slavonic languages of FYROM and Bulgaria the adjective Macedonian, both in its ethnic and regional provenance is spelled in an identical form as makedonski. On the other hand, in the Greek language the same adjective Macedonian, in its regional/cultural/historical context, appears as makedonikos (-i or -o for the feminine and neuter endings).

I am not sure I understand your point here. So in Bulgarian it will be Makedonec in Greek it will be Makedonikos. Where is the difference? To me it is essentially the same.
 
 
So the problem indicated in the English language and the term "Macedonian".Thus, the term "Macedonian"  to denote such an identity in Greece not only fails to respect Hellenic cultural heritage and the identify of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians living there, but also threatens to create a serious confusion or even a potential clash over identities in the whole region.
But your protests also fail to respect their name, used for at least several generations. What is the difference again?  
 
 
One solution is the name of the State and the nationality to be for all usages with the Slavic form. FYROM has rejected this in 1994.

Variants like Slavomakedonec or Makedonoslav or whatever else sound weird and is not what used to be their name. Why don't you guys call yourself Greekomacedonians or Hellenomakedonikos (or how would it be according to Greek language grammar)? Because it sounds stupid. Similar logic have people in Skopje.

 
You confuse the letters.
No I don't. I read both and they are about the same stuff and one is used as a basis for another. Anyway, the main question is -- who are those people to decide how a particular group of people should call themselves? And how one of them can offer Greece to annex an independent European state?
.
Back to Top
bgturk View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 04-Jun-2007
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 22:57
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Not precisely on topic, but I was wondering: Is that you, bg_turk? The same bg_turk that was on the forum years ago? If so, welcome back; I've missed you! If not, know that you had a wonderful namesake. Smile
 
-Akolouthos

Hi Akolouthos,
Yes its me. I forgot the password to my other account so i am using this new one. Nice to see you all too. ;-)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.