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In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...
    Posted: 27-May-2009 at 17:40
Originally posted by open letter


........ respectfully request  to intervene to clean up some of the historical debris about Macedonian History left in southeast Europe by the  Bush administration.
Source of the letter is the  
 

May 18, 2009

The Honorable Barack Obama
President, United States of America
White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20500

 

Dear President Obama,

            We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.


 
ancient-scholars@macedonia-evidence.org


================================================================
edited to CoC standards - es_bih


Edited by es_bih - 30-May-2009 at 03:22
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 19:55
Locked until further notice. Mod discussion.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 13:58
The meaning of this letter  has  political dimesion  since the receiver is a political person, but also and an academic one since this letter undersigned from top universities professors and writers like Ian Worthington, Malcolm Errington and Paul Cartledge - that involve with ancient Greek history- and the most of the content has historical material.
 
Political dimesion  originated from the ill-conceived decision by Bush administration to recognize FYROM as the Republic of “Macedonia,” clearly became the catalyst of a more aggressive stance by FYROM that can presently be perceived as hostile towards Greece, a NATO ally of the US for many years. Obama administration should reverse  Bush  decision, recognize them again as FYROM, and actually block their NATO integration until a new name is found. In addition the US should condemn in the strongest terms their irredentist and aggressive behavior, as  mentioned in the letter.  It is imperative that a negotiated mutually acceptable solution also includes change of the FYROM constitutional name to the new agreed name, i.e. change in their passports and use of that name erga omnes.
 
The academic dimension is clear because the names that undersigned this letter are so huge and any comment by me will be a  tom-fool thing to do.



Edited by akritas - 28-May-2009 at 15:09
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  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 14:06
To be perfectly fair, I'm sure Bush only gave one moments thought to calling it the Republic of Macedonia, mainly out of conveniance and the fact that the name looked prettier than FYROM!
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 15:50
Why tell Obama?

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  Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 16:44
And since Obama is so concerned about the hurt feelings of Greek nationalists, he will unrecognize Macedonia, and completely undermine the consistencies of US foreign policy on the issue.


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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 21:28
Obama doesn't give a shit obviously, but Greek nationalists?? Will you check the list of scholars or at least grow some eyeballs?

Edited by Vorian - 28-May-2009 at 21:28
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 22:32

That letter is so from the 19th century ....

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 23:15
What's wrong with the 19th century. And please define the 21st century.

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  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 23:21
Originally posted by xristar

What's wrong with the 19th century. And please define the 21st century.


Most relevant post of the year!
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 23:29
Originally posted by xristar

What's wrong with the 19th century.
It deals with questions/discussions popular in 19th century. This topic was actual for newly developing nations (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs etc.) in 19th century but nowadays it is just wrong.
 
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 23:46
Originally posted by Anton

It deals with questions/discussions popular in 19th century. This topic was actual for newly developing nations (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs etc.) in 19th century but nowadays it is just wrong.
Thank you! Smile
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 00:18
Welcome :)
 
 
 
Originally posted by scholars

            The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. 

 
This map is used frequently in bulgarian textbooks to describe geographical territory over which there were territorial claims  between Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. What is so wrong with the map itself?
 
Originally posted by scholars

The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. 
I wonder why didn't these people at least google the story with the banknote before including it to the letter to Obama?  It was never used as a banknote and actually even never officially printed. The fact that some nationalists print some shit and sold it on streets does not speak much about the official state position. I saw many Greek nationalists maps of Greece including half  Turkey, does it mean that this is "unhealthy territorial inspirations" from the side of Greece?
 
This is minor question, of course, but this is how wrong impression is created in people who are not familiar with the question.
 
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 09:25

Children are more mature than those god damned nationalists.

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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 10:22
Originally posted by Anton

 
Originally posted by scholars

            The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. 

 
This map is used frequently in bulgarian textbooks to describe geographical territory over which there were territorial claims  between Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. What is so wrong with the map itself?
In FYROM textbooks used to describe "ethnotical" and "historical" territory and geographical.
More in
 
 
I give you one more example that happen in other continent. Under the title "Anti-Illegal Immigration Group Calls for 'Absolut' Vodka Boycott," Fox News published on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 a report that covered an advertisement of Absolut Vodka, which showed an 1830's map of Mexico and the United States where most of the modern western United States was still part of Mexico. The ad headline was "In an Absolut World".  People got angered and the company issued an apology.!!!
 
 
Could anyone imagine how do the Greeks feel when the map is not an advertisement, but appears in FYROM government sponsored publications, including schoolbooks?
How would an American feel if the Mexican government was responsible for the map shown above? 
Can anyone imagine if the government of Mexico published the above map what would the reaction of the official United States be?
This is exactly what Greece and to a lesser extent, Bulgaria are facing every single day with the government of the FYROM.
 
Finally  in the below picture you can see the present FYROM PM Nichola Gruevski   on  04 February 2008, shown placing a wreath on the monument on the Bulgarian and FYROM's hero Goce Delchev. One can clearly see the map showing FYROM as Macedonia to include also the northern Macedonia province of Greece and part of Bulgaria, thus indicating their intentions to continue their struggle of taking this part away from Greece and Bulgaria and uniting it with their country.
 
 
 
The same map with the same "geographical borders".
 
Originally posted by Anton

 
Originally posted by scholars

The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. 
I wonder why didn't these people at least google the story with the banknote before including it to the letter to Obama?  It was never used as a banknote and actually even never officially printed. The fact that some nationalists print some shit and sold it on streets does not speak much about the official state position. I saw many Greek nationalists maps of Greece including half  Turkey, does it mean that this is "unhealthy territorial inspirations" from the side of Greece?
 
This is minor question, of course, but this is how wrong impression is created in people who are not familiar with the question.
 
This banknote was printed  for publish usage from the FYROM administration on 15 January of 1991 but somehow was stoped.The name of the bill was "makedonka"  and  the official money of the FYROM , DENAR, which consist of 100 DENI, has been introduced in circulation 20th of April 1993. All these scholars that undersigned this letter they know the historical background of this FYROM moovement. More informations in http://antikviteti.net/cms/modules/articles/article.php?id=29
 


Edited by akritas - 29-May-2009 at 10:38
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 10:27
Originally posted by bgturk

And since Obama is so concerned about the hurt feelings of Greek nationalists, he will unrecognize Macedonia, and completely undermine the consistencies of US foreign policy on the issue.


Name some Greek nationalists......
Ian Worthington, Malcolm Errington and Paul Cartledge are also Greek nationalists ?


Edited by akritas - 29-May-2009 at 10:28
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 10:33
Originally posted by Parnell

To be perfectly fair, I'm sure Bush only gave one moments thought to calling it the Republic of Macedonia, mainly out of conveniance and the fact that the name looked prettier than FYROM!
Bush Foreign Policy is a sea of fails and one of the them is the recognizition of the  FYROM as  "Republic of Macedonia”.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 11:55
Originally posted by akritas

Name some Greek nationalists......
Ian Worthington, Malcolm Errington and Paul Cartledge are also Greek nationalists ?
I actually find that list of scholars rather irrelevant. This letter is not a simple historical essay about Ancient Macedonia. It is rather about modern politics, identities, about rights and legitimizations, and most of those scholars have no recognized expertise to judge these things, so their titles are red herrings. I don't know if they actually knew what they signed, if they are nationalists or simply buying nationalist propaganda (even when not being Greeks, for having Greek ancestors, spouses, friends, etc.). What I certainly do now is that Ancient/Classical Archaeology, Art, Philology etc. is not about modern FYROM and Greece's issues.
 
On a closer look, it seems this letter was initiated by one American archaeologist and slowly got more and more co-signers. Here's a reply to it:
 
From the previous link I found this brief article, somehow related to the question:
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 29-May-2009 at 12:51
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:13
Originally posted by akritas

In FYROM textbooks used to describe "ethnotical" and "historical" territory and geographical.
 
Of course it is historical. For more than 150 years it is called as such.
 
 
I give you one more example that happen in other continent. Under the title "Anti-Illegal Immigration Group Calls for 'Absolut' Vodka Boycott," Fox News published on Tuesday, April 8, 2008 a report that covered an advertisement of Absolut Vodka, which showed an 1830's map of Mexico and the United States where most of the modern western United States was still part of Mexico. The ad headline was "In an Absolut World".  People got angered and the company issued an apology.!!!
 
Could anyone imagine how do the Greeks feel when the map is not an advertisement, but appears in FYROM government sponsored publications, including schoolbooks?
How would an American feel if the Mexican government was responsible for the map shown above? 
Can anyone imagine if the government of Mexico published the above map what would the reaction of the official United States be?
This is exactly what Greece and to a lesser extent, Bulgaria are facing every single day with the government of the FYROM.
 
 
This is irrelevant example with different historical background. Most of Californian settlers, if i am not mistaken, were not Mexicans but English speaking and even revolted against Mexican rule.  Whereas most of Macedonia during national revival (apart from lands around and in Thessaloniki) was inhabited by Slavic speaking people, whatever you prefer to call them. Besides, nobody in States opposes the name Mexico just because they have a state with almost the same name.
 
 
  
 
 
This banknote was printed  for publish usage from the FYROM administration on 15 January of 1991 but somehow was stoped.The name of the bill was "makedonka"  and  the official money of the FYROM , DENAR, which consist of 100 DENI, has been introduced in circulation 20th of April 1993. All these scholars that undersigned this letter they know the historical background of this FYROM moovement. More informations in http://antikviteti.net/cms/modules/articles/article.php?id=29
This is a lie, Macedonian government rejected to publish this banknote which printing was offered by leading opposition party. I guess you know it very well. If your scholars were familiar with the historical background regarding the name of the state and the nation they would know the banknote story well as it was quite scandalous. Thus they are either not experts or simply mislead their readers and the adressee. 


Edited by Anton - 29-May-2009 at 13:14
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 13:20
Here's an earlier draft of the letter ending with an irredentist suggestion: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2009-February/010451.html
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