Indian Books gone wrong......

Originally posted by gcle2003     I thought someone quoted the Declaration of Independence. That would be the 18th century one wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Seko Originally posted by gcle2003   I thought someone quoted the Declaration of Independence. That would be the 18th century one wouldn't it?   Yes, it was me. Now let's take a closer look and try to understand the implications of the word 'Savage' and the meaning we gather from it. Starting with the sentence from the Decalration of Independence.    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.   In this sentence we have key words that describe the intent of the author, which by themselves define the tone and meaning of the term. In a sense the sentence defines the term as if were a dictionary.

Originally posted by hugoestr Originally posted by gcle2003 Were the Indians (or some of them) hunter-gatherers? If so they weren't civilized. I don't think that when people use the term "savage" for Native Americans, they are not making a technical distinction on how they make a living, but rather they are comparing them to animals. Another point: people often use "savage" to strip away the humanity of others. So the savages end up being less human than those who are civilized. If we have perfectly nice terms that are not loaded to describe different culture, why not use them?

I would suggest maybe writing something that contrasts the myths and stories of your tribe with maybe mythology around the world or to a specific culture. "Pueblo gods and Myths" is a good example of this. The author contrasts the Hopi/Pueblo myths with Greek mythology. I have only read part of the first chapter but so far I do not see bias. The author is not Hopi/Pueblo or even Native American but I think he is very respectful of their culture. From what I have read so far the Hopi/Pueblo are exclusive in some of their ceremonies; even to other tribes. I really suggest reading this book and maybe it could provide with a direction. I would also talk to any tribal Elders and maybe work under their guidance and wisdom. It is always good to get the advice from someone who might know what aspects of your culture, myth and customs can be written and what areas of tradition or only for oral tradition. I realize that some stories, customs, ceremonies are sacred and cannot be repeated but this is not true about all tribes. Maybe you could contrast your culture with other tribes in Canada, Mexico or the USA.

Seko,

     "Actually it doesn't. It says the Indians were at that time savages, that they were merciless, and that they destroyed enemies without distinction of sex or age."

Me:  Absolutely true for the period and enemies described. You surely agree that the Northeast and Plains Indians viewed war as the great sport, valued the ability to inflict and receive torture as the measure of a man, and employed scalping, flaying, and other means to terrorize their enemies, Red and White. In short, it was a savaage culture, and within the confines of that culture, its members viewed themselves as decent and law abiding warriors. After all, they didin't do anything to anyone that they didn't expect to be done to themselves.

      "They would have called the Hopi, or the Kwakiutl, or the Washoe savages too, but I doubt they would have called them merciless or destroyers, since afaik they never fought anyone."

Me; And you know this how? You've "channeled" the authors of the Declaration? Oh, and the Kwakiutl used to sacrifice slaves during their "potlucks". Human sacrifice for entertainment, hmmmm.
 
      "The invading Spanish certainly saw the Caribs as 'savages' and they were pretty harmless. "

Me: The Caribes "harmless". The Taino certainly would not have agreed. Let's see, a warrior male oriented society forever raiding for women, who were kept as long as they had male offspring, then sacrificed and eaten. Oh, and the losers of their battles were also eaten. Where did you study Caribbean history? Mine degree was taken at the Universidad Interamericana de Puerto Rico.

Your arguments are the heighth of political correctness. Talk about counting the angels on the head of pin. Feel free to ban me at any time.

History of the Coeur d’ Alene Indians is another book that discusses the history and some customs of that NW Salish Tribe. I have a copy but sadly it is out of print.

History of the Paiutes is another book I recommend by Sarah Winnemucca. The book talks about a legend where this tribe came in contact with some white people and harmoniously lived alongside them but then the whites got greedy; which led discord and to a falling away. I get the impression this legend goes way back and could be pre-Columbian or they could have been Spaniards- who knows. We can only speculate to the cows come back.

Civil applies, too, to Ancient Kahokians and to the Pueblo natives.

“Actually it doesn't. It says the Indians were at that time savages, that they were merciless, and that they destroyed enemies without distinction of sex or age."

I agree with you here and in “War of Thousand Deserts” it talks about the various raids by Indians against each other. One story in this book talked about, I think, an Arapaho raid on a Comanche village. They waited till the Comanche went to war leaving the village of mostly older people, children and women with only a few warriors to guard it. While they were off on this raid the Arapaho and another tribe raided the village and not only slaughtered many of the villagers but took many of the women and children into slavery. It sounded like a Native American version of Wounded Knee.   I would have to reread it sometime but I think it was this raid where they piled the decapitated heads of their victims into barrels or something like that. Most of Northern Mexico was devastated by Indian raid and a constant cycle of revenge based on a warrior ethos. This book really goes into detail about this and I suggest it if you love Mexican and Native American history. This book fails to discuss the Comanche’s views on mythology and religion that would help explain their beliefs about war and revenge.


Constantine XI not all tribes were hunters and gatherers. Tribes like the Hopi or Pueblo were Chacolilthic or Copper Age and had a very advanced system of agriculture. Although I agree with you about the Aztec etc !

Yes, that is why I said the natives would largely be classed as cultures rather than civilisations, there are certainly exceptions.

Another indicator of civilisation is widespread practice of agriculture. Like the construction of permanent settlements, this also varied from one people to the next.

Originally posted by hugoestr ...The video that I showed from Mexican television highlights how racist Mexican and Latin American societies were that no one thought that the skit was inappropriate. Should we give people slack? Sure, a bit. However, considering that we have documented cases in Latin American of people speaking against this kind of discrimination since the XV century, maybe it shouldn't be too much slack.