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Indian Books gone wrong...... |
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 Topic: Indian Books gone wrong......Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:18 |
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gcle2003
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Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:30 |
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Me: I’d recommend you go down to your local morgue and ask those who deal with the dead. Dead Caucasians are “white”, dead East Asians are “yellow”, and dead Blacks are ashen colored. You’ve obviously also never seen any real fear on anyone’s face. I've seen dead bodies and don't have any idea why you should think I hadn't. Dead bodies, even of blue-eyed blondes aren't white (unless possibly they died of leprosy - I admit I've never seen a dead leper.
I've also been outside at night in a German blitz which is pretty frightening, so I don't know where you get your idea you can pontificate on what I've seen or haven't seen.
In fact the whole point of my post was that even when people are said to go 'white-faced' they don't. When they're supposed to go 'white with anger' they don't. And so on.
I'll grant you some people are yellowish, my (English-Welsh-Manx descent) wife has yellowish skin compared to my pinkish. But I never said they weren't.
What you have obviously never tried to do is paint a portrait. Or even look closely at one.
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Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:38 |
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Pinguin, have you ever been to Mexico? All pictures you post of purportedly average looking Mexicans so far have been definately whiter than the average Mexican. It may be accurate for Chile (where there is indeed less indigenous admixture than in Mexico), but it definately isn't for Mexico.
And have you actually watched the clip Hugo has posted? It doesn't have anything to do with Cantinflas. Edited by Mixcoatl - 01-May-2009 at 18:41 |
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Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:55 |
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Look at these indigenous people of Mexico,
   I haven't been to Mexico, but I have seen Mexicans of all condition of life, both at my country and in Canada.
The point is simple, what is so "white" with Mexican TV?
Look at these figures and actors. What's the difference
 Ruben Sosa, who was humilliated in Cannes
 (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h15fCnxbJHjlbZDv-LoNybfNBDSQ) Or Maya Zapata? (All inclusive)
 Edited by pinguin - 01-May-2009 at 18:56 |
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hugoestr
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Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
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Posted: 01-May-2009 at 22:16 |
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Did you watch the video that I posted? Your answers do not seem to address it.
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lirelou
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Joined: 26-Mar-2009 Location: Tampa, FL Online Status: Offline Posts: 528 |
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Posted: 01-May-2009 at 22:25 |
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gcle: I wasn't talking about bodies which have been treated by an undertaker. Dead ones, drained of blood. For Whites, they are really white. Not the same color they had when they were alive, with blood coursing through their veins.
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 00:56 |
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 That funny show called ugly the actor that plays the Aztec in every single show for years.
Ramon Valdes, played the role of Don Ramon for years. He wasn't very attractive. Curiously he was paled and blue eyed.
 He passed away not long ago. He was a very beloved figure in Hispanic America because represented the "jack of all trades", or the poorest people of the region.
Second, they are despicting Aztecs, not just common Indians of the hills. And Aztecs used to kill people in human sacrifices as the show say. And Mexicans realize those ceremonies were brutal. Come on, the main reason why the Aztec failled was the opposition to those ceremonies among the people that surrounded the Aztecs!
Most of the word games goes around how funny does Nahuatl sounds to Spanish speaker hears. With names like Nahualcoyotl, Tenochtitlan, Chocolatl etc., it could be easy to figure it out that sounds as funny as an english speaker singing mariachi music
Now, the archeologist are Americans, not mexicans. That's why the actress, who is brunette, tinted her hair blond for the play. And the red guy with the ridiculous red dress represents.... Superman
... in a "third world" and coward version.Finally, the stereotype of the "dumb Indian" is show false with the gang about the American jumbo jet...
Jesus, it is ridiculous to accusse Chespirito of racism. And less for this very funny show.
That show how difficult is the interpret things inside a culture looking from the outside.
This is the first part of the show...
Edited by pinguin - 02-May-2009 at 03:01 |
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hugoestr
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 02:10 |
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but Pinguin, that was my point: people from Latin America can't see what is an outright racist skit. And the one person who has the strongest Native American looks, As you said, is the one who is insulted for being "ugly". :)
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 02:35 |
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Are you crazy? Don Ramon didn't look Indigenous. He had Italian ancestry by the father side. If anything he looked weird, with a "tortured" face as a boxer. In that show everybody was weird. Profesor Jirafales, for instance, was so tall that he got the nick that means "professor giraffe", Chapulin colorado means little insect, and it is the nick of the main actor and director of the show, who is very small
. There also was a lady, who was old, and that not even Don Ramon wanted as a girlfriend ...Other actor was very fat, and when fighted pushed the others with the belly ... It was just a fun game playing with human condition.More pictures from Don Ramon. I can't see how you could find him "indigenous".
As I said he was pale and blue eyed, and also have some very thick eyebrows... nothing similar to Moctezuma whatsoever. Here, playing Schartwzeneger  Here like Jim Morrison:
 Here, a closer look:
 And here, in real life:
![[Loco.jpg]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5N5YitHLbn8/RrTCYNgU3bI/AAAAAAAAAWE/zqGlRGIMFeE/s1600/Loco.jpg "[Loco.jpg]") And as an actor during the golden age of Mexican movies:
 As I say, ask any spanish speaker and they would know this great comic actor that was Ramon Valdes. Edited by pinguin - 02-May-2009 at 02:41 |
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 03:08 |
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Just watch this video. Here they make fun of Americans and Uncle Sam...
Listen as "super sam" (superman+uncle sam) talks.
Is that racism?
And this in the version in Portuguese for Brazil:
Anyways, that fight represents the conflicts between the U.S. and Latin America Edited by pinguin - 02-May-2009 at 03:19 |
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edgewaters
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Snake in the Grass-Banned Joined: 13-Mar-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 2394 |
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 07:35 |
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Will there be any further discussion on history books about native Americans? Whether Latin American culture is, at the present time, racist or not just isn't a historical topic. However it arose, it is a discussion more suited to a thread in the Tavern or Current Affairs. Edited by edgewaters - 02-May-2009 at 07:36 |
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 07:39 |
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I opened a thread on that topic in this same section. Somehow we went out topic here. I believe the thread has a good point, though: that cultures need an inside look to be understand. Outsiders can reach that "inside" look only after a lot of effort, after years of study and living with the people of that culture. Otherwise, mistakes are made, like the ones that were presented in this same thread when critizicing an innocent Mexican comic program.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 02-May-2009 at 14:44 |
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I have been asked by the creator of this thread to close it. Instead, because this thread is active and is about a genuinely important topic, I remind participants that we should stick with the original topic. I think this is a fair request, as the thread has gone a long way from its purpose. So:
*Let's discuss the topic of anthropology and ethnography, focusing especially on the subject what makes for a reliable ethnographic study and what some of the main problems are. Those wishing to discuss melanin levels in American people are welcome to do so in a new thread. |
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lirelou
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Joined: 26-Mar-2009 Location: Tampa, FL Online Status: Offline Posts: 528 |
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Posted: 03-May-2009 at 20:27 |
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"Ok, there is allot of books that talk bout Indians of the Americas, but
allot of these books are racist and stereotypical. I noticed that these
books are completely wrong in knowledge and are biased."
I vote for closure. Canadian Guy has never given us any list or specific examples of such books. In short, he has failed to sustain his initial assertions that "allot of books that talk bout Indians...are racist and stereotypical." |
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 01:13 |
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what about the "Letter from the chief Seattle".
According to same sources, that was made up for a reporter, and it isn't really a legacy of the Chief Seattle.
I am interested on that topic
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 01:45 |
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Honestly I would like to see some examples of which books on Native Americans are so terribly inaccurate. It is hard to respond to vague criticism.
Then, when we have those examples, it would be a good idea to examine how much of a proportion of anthropological works on Native Americans these books comprise. |
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hugoestr
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 05:05 |
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Actually, a lot of works from the no so distant past depict Native Americans in an incorrect manner. One exercise in my anthropology class about 10 years ago was to go to the library and find racist or biased depictions of U.S. minorities, Native Americans included.
Unfortunately it was to easy. And most of the books were from the 60s to the present. As for books, the pioneering anthropologist Morgan Lewis Morgan got it really wrong, and it was very biased against Native Americans. And we must keep in mind that he was actually sympathetic to them 
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drgonzaga
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banned Joined: 15-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 612 |
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 21:14 |
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The topic has really divided itself into contradictory themes: 1) the indigenous and the media, as well as 2) the Academic and culture conflict. Pinguin moved into Cantinflas mode and yet forgot a more folkloric figure in the Mexican experience la India Maria. And with specific reference to Mexico, one must keep in mind that even today to call someone an Indio is an insult. Likewise for generations the Mexican media in advertising focused on the clearly "western" ethos. Nevertheless, I do not believe this direction is the topic intended. Instead, and here I will use Brazil as an excellent example, the theme seeks to explore the bias of the intellectual elite toward the "western model" as the preferable traits. The work of sociologists such as Gilberto Freire in the '30s through the '50s [e.g.Casa grande e Senzala] marvelously capture this foible. Chalk it up to the liberal mystique...
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edgewaters
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Snake in the Grass-Banned Joined: 13-Mar-2006 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 2394 |
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 22:18 |
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Actually there are loads of them. THE standard reference book for natives in Canada was, up until not very long ago, Diamond Jenness' 1932 work "The Indians of Canada". There are factual errors, but that's not really the problem - the problem was the interpretation, which presented native groups as completely passive, non-agents powerless before European agency. This just wasn't the case. It's actually astounding that it remained the standard reference right up until the late 90s, given Jenness' misguided predictions - stating, for instance, that the remaining native cultures would disappear within a generation (ie by the 50s or so). |
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Seko
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Posted: 04-May-2009 at 22:28 |
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I'm sure there exist books sympathetic to Indian culture. On the other hand it appears that our predominant bias has been degrading to Indians and have shaped our mindset. Starting from our inception as the 'United States', our Declaration of Independence more than hints of Indian degradation. Mentioned along the lines of Great Britain's repeated tyrannies, the Founding Fathers had wrote this:
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
Then again, ethnocentricity never had left our collective conscience.
Our Savage Neighbors: How Indian War Transformed Early America
by Peter Silver
Savage Frontier 1835-1837: Rangers, Riflemen, and Indian Wars in Texas, Vol. 1 by Stephen L. Moore
Savage Abandon by Cassie Edwards
and so on and so on.... Edited by Seko - 04-May-2009 at 22:29 |
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