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Northern Wars - Sweden, Poland, Russia

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Northern Wars - Sweden, Poland, Russia
    Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 14:33

Since the first Northern War 1563-1570 to the Great Northern War in the begining of 18th century. Dont you think that from both Polish and Swedish point of viev they were a great mistake? Instead cooperating together against the great Russian Bear both Sweden and Poland were fighting one against each other without any real but short time profits untill Russia became so powerfull?

Wouldnt it be more wise to join effors against Russia ?

Do you think that the main reson was that Sigismundus Vasa was elected for the king of Poland and dethroned in Sweden or do you belive that those wars would occur anyway because Swedes wanted hegemony in the Baltic Region?

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 18:28

I think they would have happened anyway because the Swedish had an envious hegemony in the Baltic and Russia wanted to replace her.

Sooner or later war would have broken out.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 18:34

As for the alliance against Russia, it's hard to say.  I think the wisest option for Poland would have been to defeat Sweden and then try to forge an alliance to keep Russia in check.  It was never totally certain that Russia would replace Sweden as the dominator of the Baltic and perhaps if the Poles had worked with Denmark and a defeated Sweden, they could have kept the Russians from attaining the power they did.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 08:53

poles, could have destroyed Smolensk, and then with Denmark or Sweden against Russia...

but what has happened that has happened.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 12:41

I believe that Russia was conuerable in the first decades of the 17th century with combined forces of Sweden, Poland, maybe even Denmark and some German dutchies. Russia wasn't that fight-able  at that time and it could have very realistically happened. But when Moscow would have fallen everybody would probably have started fighting among themselves and the Russians would have gotten most of their lands back.

All of that was messed up because of the Swedish-Polish war in 1600-1629 though.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 13:09
Actually they did. Poland captured both Smolensk and Moscow. Smolensk was held for long but small Polish garrison in Moscow felt because of no reinforcements and no supplies. It is said that after eating horses polish soldiers were eating their dead. Polish parliament (Sejm) from the begining was against intervention in Moscow, which in fact was started not by regular polish forces but by the band of adventurers and poor land hungry nobles.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 01:59

I don't think poland could have done much, it was a huge, divided, underpopulated state (around 8 million) that only survived because its neighbours were too busy fighting each other

The division really made poland impotent, half its pop were real poles, while there was really no religious cohesion in the country. Poland also had a decentralized republic for a government, with its 'king' used only as a figurehead. poland at that time reminds me of a feudal society the king might be at war with Russia, but major parts of teh country might not be. Confusing indeed.

 

Also, im writing a history of Russia during Peter the great (which hopefully will be added to the AE project), and i'll cover the great northern war too if anyone has any links to pictures or articles, i would be very grateful.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 08:42

Originally posted by TreizeV

I don't think poland could have done much, it was a huge, divided, underpopulated state (around 8 million) that only survived because its neighbours were too busy fighting each other The division really made poland impotent, half its pop were real poles, while there was really no religious cohesion in the country. Poland also had a decentralized republic for a government, with its 'king' used only as a figurehead. poland at that time reminds me of a feudal society the king might be at war with Russia, but major parts of teh country might not be. Confusing indeed.

Thats truth but in the 18th century. In the 17th and earlier Russia didnt have much succes on the battlefield against Poland-Lithuania.

Religious diversity wasnt a weakness. Poland didnt suffer any religious wars like those in the western Europe. About 20% of people had full political rights -  like nowhere else in Europe. Nationality didnt play any role. In the Great Northern war Poland wasnt even a player, was dragged into it by its Saxon king whose reign caused complete anarchy of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

What i mean is that if Poland-Lithuania and Sweden cooperated lets say from the begining of the 17th century Russia would have remained a puppet state and Romanovs wouldnt even had a chance to become tsars or even if they would share the fate of Vasili Shuiski

 

I think lots of pictures and interesting info you can find on this site. It is about the baltic region history.

http://66.188.129.72:5980/History/PreModernEurope/index.htm



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  Quote boody4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 10:50
It would be so interesting to see a world with a different Russia . How would the world have been with no Russian Empire, no USSR? No offense to Russians.
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 12:29
I don't think poland could have done much, it was a huge, divided, underpopulated state (around 8 million) that only survived because its neighbours were too busy fighting each other

Hmm..unpopulated ?
In the early 1600s the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was the largest state in Europe, with 990,000 square kilometers. The population was at ten million, equal to that of Italy and the Iberian peninsula, twice that of England, and two-thirds of France. With all weekness of polish state tresaury Poland have win 3 wars (all)  with Russia in period 1579-1634 and been able to repulse also the Ottomans invasion ( first battle of Chocim 1621).

About 20% of people had full political rights -  like nowhere else in Europe.

I would say rather 9-10 %..still much more that inmost Europen countries

Nationality didnt play any role

Exactly !

As for the Mosquito initial question: I think the conflict between Poland and Sweden was inevitable however without Polish Wasas claims to Swedish throne the conflict would be much less stiff and could result with some compromise result.  The chance for Poland I see still rather  in internal reforms especially regarding taxation and problems of Ukrainian Cossakcs..

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 13:27

Originally posted by TJK

I would say rather 9-10 %..still much more that inmost Europen countries

This always makes me confused. From all what i have read i assume that the % of people in the society who were so called nobles, privilaged class, sovereign etc was with time increasing. Some books i have read were saying that in the 18th century the % of nobles in the society incereased to about 20%. It is said that in some regions of commonwealth it was even higher (even 25%, i think it has somting to do with "zaścianki"). But im pretty sure that in the 18th century nobles made at least 15% of people - while your 9%-10% might be more accurate for the 17th century. What do you think TJK?

But it must be said that even in most of the western democracies, even in Great Britain, such big percentage of people like in the 17th and 18th century Poland-Lithuania recived full political rights in late 19th century.



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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 13:50

But im pretty sure that in the 18th century nobles made at least 15% of people - while your 9%-10% might be more accurate for the 17th century. What do you think TJK?

Frankly speaking I have never been interested with XVIII century polish economic and demography (with XVII century just a little) but I have checked this in prof. Gierowski works. He still claim polsih nobels constituted about 9-11% of the total population in XVIII century. With some regions with much dense population of nobility you are right - it especialy regards Mazovia (szlachta zagrodowa and zaściankowa). I think some calculation are given by Noramn Davis in his work " God's Playground" (unfotunately I have lend now this book to my friend) 

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:14

so nobles were few - if pop was about 6-9 million then about 10 percent would be 600-900, 000.. no im confused... how many there were

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:20
In XVII/XVIII century rather closer to 900,000 - 1 million..this means the general leavy have potential to issue about 100,000 nobels -soldiers (which has never occur)
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 03:47
Originally posted by Mosquito

Since the first Northern War 1563-1570 to the Great Northern War in the begining of 18th century. Dont you think that from both Polish and Swedish point of viev they were a great mistake? Instead cooperating together against the great Russian Bear both Sweden and Poland were fighting one against each other without any real but short time profits untill Russia became so powerfull?

Wouldnt it be more wise to join effors against Russia ?

Do you think that the main reson was that Sigismundus Vasa was elected for the king of Poland and dethroned in Sweden or do you belive that those wars would occur anyway because Swedes wanted hegemony in the Baltic Region?

Probably it would have been war anyway - russian and swedish forces had been clashing since the 13th century over the control of Finland and Karelia

The invasions of Poland and Russia were mistakes as I see it. Karl XII should have tried to defend his Baltic provinces instead of launching daring campaigns deep into the Ukraine and Poland. But it's easy to be wise after the event...

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  Quote Arekushii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 19:00
Maybe I'm blind but this war is called Livonian war or Northern Seven Years' war, the Great Northern war was 1700-1721..
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 19:21
Originally posted by Mangudai

Probably it would have been war anyway - russian and swedish forces had been clashing since the 13th century over the control of Finland and Karelia

The invasions of Poland and Russia were mistakes as I see it. Karl XII should have tried to defend his Baltic provinces instead of launching daring campaigns deep into the Ukraine and Poland. But it's easy to be wise after the event...

Or just accepted the generous peace terms offered by the Russians after their initial defeats in the Northern War, which would have strengthened Sweden's position in the Baltic considerably. Of course Peter would break these terms sooner or later, but defending the Baltic would have been preferable to navigating an army deep inside Russia. Karl XII however suffered from hubris and refused to end any war without the total defeat of the enemy.

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