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dieheart
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Topic: Afrikans in science - Dr Ivan Van Sertima Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 12:28 |
This is something I think everyone should watch especially people who view black people as primitive etc. I learned a few things I never knew in this vid. It talks about many ancient black African cultures, and their contributions to the world that go under looked... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=646422939488958030&hl=en
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 13:04 |
It is very difficult to learn something from the myth-teller that is Ivan Van Sertima. Better research serious schoolars. Fields such as the archaoelogy of ancient Nigeria are fascinating, but we don't need clowns as Van Sertima to mislead us.
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dieheart
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 13:20 |
Are you saying the facts about Ta seti pre dating Egypt, the mathamatics, and sciences used by black "negroid" , "nubian" africans are wrong?
I"ve checked out these things, and he was indeed corrects about these things, and thats what I'm most interested in. And the writing, and things used in Ta Seti, nubia , "land of the bow" pre dating Egypt , why arn't more Egyptologist talking about this is what I want to know. If you find Hyroglyps, and the Falcon Horus in Ta seti that pre dates EGypt.... thats a big deal. And would suggest many things, and would question the way we view Egypt.
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 13:40 |
Originally posted by dieheart
Are you saying the facts about Ta seti pre dating Egypt, the mathamatics, and sciences used by black "negroid" , "nubian" africans are wrong?
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Probably not in that topic. The problem is that author mixed facts with fantasy.
Originally posted by dieheart
I"ve checked out these things, and he was indeed corrects about these things, and thats what I'm most interested in. And the writing, and things used in Ta Seti, nubia , "land of the bow" pre dating Egypt , why arn't more Egyptologist talking about this is what I want to know. If you find Hyroglyps, and the Falcon Horus in Ta seti that pre dates EGypt.... thats a big deal. And would suggest many things, and would question the way we view Egypt.
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Yeap. You better check carefully whatever that guy say. That's all.
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dieheart
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 13:43 |
From what I know, the only real problem was with the african origins in the Americas.
Either way, the findings in that tomb are not talked about much at all, and that imo says alot about the people doing the work.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 14:39 |
"Van Sertima has been criticized by academics for making ill-founded Afrocentric claims. A lengthy 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology article criticized in detail many elements of Van Sertima's 1976 book They Came Before Columbus.
The book had not earlier received a thorough professional academic
review. They stated that in claiming African origins for prehistoric Olmec
culture (in present-day Mexico), Van Sertima had ignored the work of
Central American researchers. They stated no evidence of a prehistoric
African influence or presence had been found in controlled
archeological excavations in the New World. The reviewers also wrote
that Olmec stone heads
only superficially appear to be African and did not resemble the Nubian
populations which Van Sertima claimed as their originators. They ruled
as "fallacious" his claims for the diffusion of pyramid building and
mummification. In addition, they accused Van Sertima's cultural outlook
of being disparaging to Native American achievements. Van Sertima has
sparred with some of his critics, but he did not respond to the 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology criticism.
In a New York Times 1977 review of Van Sertima works, British scholar Glyn Daniel called Van Sertima's work "ignorant rubbish”, concluding that the writings of Van Sertima (and Barry Fell, whom he was also reviewing) “give us badly argued theories based on fantasies.”.
Dean R. Snow, a professor of anthropology, in 1981 wrote that Van
Sertima "uses the now familiar technique of stringing together bits of
carefully selected evidence, each surgically removed from the context
that would give it a rational explanation." He goes on, "The findings
of professional archaeologists and physical anthropologists are
misrepresented so that they seem to support the [Van Sertima]
hypothesis."" http://www.answers.com/topic/ivan-van-sertima
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1981/6/1981_6_102.shtml
His study of the lost sciences of Africa could be interesting, but his work on Black Egyptians and Black influence on Pre-Columbian American civilization seem like the usual afrocentrist fare.
Edited by Reginmund - 17-Apr-2009 at 14:41
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 21:23 |
Originally posted by dieheart
From what I know, the only real problem was with the african origins in the Americas. ... |
Van Sertima not only lied about the origins of the Olmecs (very evident for people who knows about the ancient Americas), he also lied purposedly on the Moors of Spain (which is also evident for people who knows the history of Spain in detail).
Knowing that, he is a very unreliable author. He may mention interesting topics, though, but you better checked them out with other sources.
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Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 21:30 |
Besides, Van Sertima is not African. He is from Suriname. With respect to his "PhD"and his title of "doctor", I wonder if that is not another of his fantasies.
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red clay
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Posted: 24-Jul-2009 at 15:34 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Besides, Van Sertima is not African. He is from Suriname. With respect to his "PhD"and his title of "doctor", I wonder if that is not another of his fantasies. |
The only fantasizing here is Penguin's doing. Dr. Ivan Van Sertima is a Professor Emeritus of African American Studies at Rutgers U. the State Uni. of New Jersey and Former Chair of the African and African American studies.
Pinguin has this problem with people of African decent. He has called Dr Van Sertima, among other things a Sambo. Now I do understand that that word doesn't have the same negative shadows in some cultures. However Pinguin knows exactly what it means in most of N.A. and using it in most of the region I'm from will get you a week of eating soup. It is 2nd only to the n word in being drisive, derogatory and just downright racist.
Don't believe anything you hear about Africa and African influence in the Americas until you have seen Penguin go nuts and call it a hoax. When he's done that you can be sure that there is some substance to it.
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FS_Andy
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Posted: 02-Oct-2010 at 06:56 |
Besides, pinguin left out the last part of the source he sited...
In response to Glyn Daniel's review, Clarence Weiant, who worked in
Mexican archeology for the National Geographic Society and the
Smithsonian Institution and who participated in excavation of Olmec
heads in Mexico, wrote to the N.Y. Times that Ivan Van Sertima's work
"is a summary of six or seven years of meticulous research based upon
archeology, egyptology, African history, oceanograhpy, astronomy,
botany, rare Arabic and Chinese manuscripts, the letters and journals of
early American explorers and the observations of physical
anthropologists...As one who has been immersed in Mexican archeology for
some forty years, I am thoroughly convinced of the soundness of Van
Sertima's conclusions."
Rest In Peace True Son Of The World
Dr. Van Sertima PhD
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balochii
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Posted: 02-Oct-2010 at 12:51 |
^ how is arabic and chinese manuscripts african? there are theories that arab or chinese might have come before columbus to the new world, but there is not evidence that africans came
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FS_Andy
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Posted: 02-Oct-2010 at 15:56 |
actualy there is more information and "evidence" than you know what to do with. start here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IywJ1DGuecY http://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus-Presence/dp/0394402456
enjoy
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red clay
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Posted: 03-Oct-2010 at 15:47 |
Originally posted by balochii
^ how is arabic and chinese manuscripts african? there are theories that arab or chinese might have come before columbus to the new world, but there is not evidence that africans came |
Arabs I don't know about, but chinese, Japanese, African and a bunch of others[Celts Norse etc.] certainly had at least trade relations with Pre Columbian peoples.
I don't believe that Peru was populated by Africans, but I'm sure there was frequent and meaningful interaction, and not just with Africa. There is considerable evidence for the Americas being a very busy place from about 4500bce to about 1000 bce. The following are not isolated examples, carefully chosen to support any view, but just a handful of the thousands of artifacts scattered in museums across South and North America. These particular items are mainly sculptural in nature, all were found in Mexico proper and the Olmec heartland. I posted these about 2 years ago. At that time I had to contend with someone who could not look at any of this objectively, and that is really all I ask.
This is listed as an "Olmec Jade Mask".
Because some artifacts show presence of another culture does not mean they colonized. The 2 oceans were a formidable obstacle yes, however not insurmountable. I believe trade was the main motivating factor for cross oceanic activity. Colonization would have been 5-6 levels above what would be today a trade legation.
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opuslola
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Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 16:52 |
Suddenly it seems that Red Clay and I agree upon certain things! Like him, I can in no way argue that the representations shown above are anything other than Negroid featured Africans or Oriental featured Chinese/Nipponese, etc.!
And, I fail to see how others could think differently! That is, if they are totally honest?
However, the "dating" of such artefacts is left for discussion, by some "experts" and, as well by, non-experts?
Regards,
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Cryptic
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Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 18:12 |
Though I loathe to say the the Peng---in word, I once found his explanation that the Olmecs were mediocre sculptors attempting to carve very large scale boulders (lost of room for anatomical errors to grow) pretty convincing.
But wow, several of the smaller scale carvings (usually more anatomically accurate) look very African. Maybe I am no longer as isolationist as I once was.
Edited by Cryptic - 06-Oct-2010 at 18:15
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red clay
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Posted: 07-Oct-2010 at 09:13 |
All of the above artifacts were dated mainly by stratigraphy. Meaning the strata of the ground they were found in and by the age of the tomb,[if that's where they were found] they were in. All are dated to before common era and some as old as 3000 bce.
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red clay
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Posted: 07-Oct-2010 at 09:42 |
Originally posted by Cryptic
Though I loathe to say the the Peng---in word, I once found his explanation that the Olmecs were mediocre sculptors attempting to carve very large scale boulders (lost of room for anatomical errors to grow) pretty convincing.
But wow, several of the smaller scale carvings (usually more anatomically accurate) look very African. Maybe I am no longer as isolationist as I once was. |
Contrary to what Pinguin thought, I don't think those huge heads are Olmec. I just made a big deal of them because I knew it gave him heartburn. There isn't any solid dating on the heads. They have been found in many places but all show signs of having been moved or some other disturbance of the strata. A couple were even found on the surface.
A long shot, I think they are much older than the Olmec. I believe the Olmec possibly found these when they arrived on the scene and revered them as gifts from "the Gods". Much like the huge stone spheres that are found throughout Central And S. America. Like it or not, we are missing large chunks of time from our collective memories.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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FS_Andy
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Posted: 07-Oct-2010 at 17:18 |
Its interesting to me how easy it was to accept that Atlantis and these 'civilisations' were brought by Europeans/Caucasians or even Aliens/Martians with nothing but speculation and conjecture, but how difficult it is to acknowledge the same when the evidence points to Africa/Negroid. The fact that even DNA studies suggest that earliest man was Africa/Negroid not withstanding. Could it be that prejudice has blinded so much? Could it be we have bought into the idea that these people are indeed inferior unlike us superior people? Which, mind you is an oxymoron...
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opuslola
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Posted: 07-Oct-2010 at 21:29 |
FS-Andy,
I did not know that the "negroid" gene was found in the early "Lucy's?" Is there one?
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Sander
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Posted: 11-Oct-2010 at 10:01 |
Obviously, Olmec sculptures/reliefs/masks etc. display mongoloids, negroids and caucasoids as well. I dont think the Olmecs were largely African as some claim but they probably included some of them. In any case : contacts.
The famous Jadite figurine/Girl of Las Bocas (Olmec c. 1000 BC) National Museum of Mexico City
The below terracotta is interesting. African features and typical African facial scarification. Post-Olmec but pre-Columbian. National Museum of Anthropology, Mexico-City (dated to the classic period ).
Edited by Sander - 11-Oct-2010 at 11:03
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