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Paul
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Topic: IRA Attacks In N.Ireland Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:33 |
The police are civilians.
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:46 |
they are most certainly not, carrying weapons and wearing uniforms doesn't exactly make one civilian...
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:02 |
Hello Paul
Many in the Irish government were supporters of the PIRA during the troubles and much of the funding and many of the terrorists came from the US just as they did from Libya. I remember once Reagan refused to hand terrorists to his beloved maggie back in the 80s despite being convicted.
As for this not being terrorism, I guess Temu you have no problem with the attack on the marines in Germany back in the 80s, after all they were soldiers.
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:07 |
which marines? Germany doesn't have any naval infantry....
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Parnell
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:12 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Hello Paul
Many in the Irish government were supporters of the PIRA during the troubles and much of the funding and many of the terrorists came from the US just as they did from Libya. I remember once Reagan refused to hand terrorists to his beloved maggie back in the 80s despite being convicted.
As for this not being terrorism, I guess Temu you have no problem with the attack on the marines in Germany back in the 80s, after all they were soldiers.
Al-Jassas |
There were a few, but once they were exposed it quickly became a massive public scandel. Many is certainly an example of taking liberties with exaggerations. I think you'll find it hard to find more than a handful of Irish government ministers at any time actively helping or even supporting the PIRA during the Troubles. Frankly your talking out of your ass, though you are correct in that the Americans did help pay for the considerably large PIRA arsenal.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:18 |
The disco bombing in 86
AL-Jassas
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:27 |
this is obviously terrorism since random civilians were also affected.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:39 |
The Pizza dilevry guys also were innocent civilians who nearly died in this attack.
Al-Jassas
Edited by Al Jassas - 11-Mar-2009 at 18:40
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:40 |
Originally posted by Temujin
they are most certainly not, carrying weapons and wearing uniforms doesn't exactly make one civilian... |
If the police are not civilians then every single country on earth is presently under martial law.
In most countries the police fall under civil authority, in the UK local government and a police commitee made up of locally elected civil councillers. They are subject to civil law, have no rights to make summary judgement and have to prosecute through the judicial system. The police are by definition a civil alternative to the military.
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:42 |
so, then the Marquis and similar groupings who attacked German police units where all terrorists and not freedom fighters?
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:44 |
The definition freedom fighter and terrorist are political interpretations of the act, not a difference in the act itself.
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Dolphin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:51 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by Spartakus
"Terrorism" is not a monopoly of the Islamic world after all.....
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that was not terrorism, terrorism is randomly targeting civilians. none of them were civilians.
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This most certainly was terrorism. The two soldiers were off duty, and unless you forgo the brand of civilian forever when you become a soldier, they were civilians.
Regardless of the nuances of the soldiers, two completely innocent pizza delivery men were also shot, and the intention was murder. The RIRA stated that they wanted to kill them because the were 'collaborating with the British'. The idiocy of this statement highlights the idiocy of the RIRA. By delivering pizzas they were collaborators? So by buying petrol in the north, by the same logic, you are also a collaborator. In fact, according to these fools, if you engage with the British in any way you are a collaborator. So the years of diesel smuggling across the border did not make these people collaborators themselves? Or the use of a British registration car to make your escape, the taxes of which go to the Queen? Foolish people.
But they are terrorists, of that I have no doubt.
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by Spartakus
"Terrorism" is not a monopoly of the Islamic world after all.....
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that was not terrorism, terrorism is randomly targeting civilians. none of them were civilians.
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Then what was it a powder puff match? Of course it was terrorism, terrorists strike at military targets, too. Just take a look at the USS Cole bombing a few years back in the Gulf - that was an act of terror against the state (USA) by a terrorist organization. We didn't see much of a difference there - unsuspecting human beings killed in uniform or out of it is the same thing.
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Dolphin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:54 |
Thousands attend murder protests | Dissident republicans have said they killed the three men
Thousands of people have attended a series of rallies across NI to show their anger at the murders of two soldiers and a policeman. Silent protests took place in Belfast, Lisburn, Newry, Downpatrick and Londonderry. A peace vigil is also to be held in Craigavon, County Armagh, near the site where Constable Stephen Paul Carroll was shot dead on Monday. Two people are still being questioned over the murder of the 48-year-old. Prime Minister Gordon Brown has sent words of support to MPs who held a vigil outside Westminster in support of the peace rallies held in Northern Ireland. Mr Brown's official spokesman said the prime minister was "very supportive of anything that signified unity". Rallies Speaking in Belfast, Eugene McGlone of the Unite union, which helped organise the rallies, described the turnout as "very heartening". "There was probably in excess of 10,000 people," he said. "There were I suppose some apprehensions on the part of some of our people as to whether or not we would get a crowd out at such short notice." In Londonderry, Inspector John Burrows said everyone in the police service appreciated the public's support. "We are massively grateful for the people of Derry who've turned out to support the police," he said. "They have come to show solidarity, I believe, with the police and to send a very clear message out to the people who killed Constable Stephen Carroll and the two soldiers that they do not represent them." On Wednesday, during prime minister's questions, Gordon Brown spoke of the "courage and dedication" of the security forces. The prime minister also praised the peace protests.He said they showed the "defiance and determination" of people to "stand up to the evil of criminal violence". Conservative leader David Cameron, returning to work after the death of his son Ivan, condemned the "callous killers". He said the most important thing was that everyone worked with the police to ensure the killers could be found and convicted. 'Abominable acts' In Dublin, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said those who carried out the attacks were a "tiny and unrepresentative group of evil people who have no mandate and no support for their actions". Pope Benedict XVI has added his voice to the condemnation, calling the murders "abominable acts of terrorism". A reward of £100,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killers of Constable Carroll and two soldiers has been offered by the Sun newspaper in conjunction with the Crimestoppers charity. Dissident republican group, the Continuity IRA, said it shot Constable Carroll at Lismore Manor, in Craigavon, on Monday. On Saturday, sappers Mark Quinsey, 23, from Birmingham, and Patrick Azimkar, 21, from London, were shot at Massereene Army base, Antrim. The Real IRA said they killed the soldiers, who died in a hail of bullets as they accepted a pizza delivery at about 2120 GMT. Four men were also injured in the attack. One of them is in a critical condition and another is seriously ill. A youth aged 17 and a 37-year-old man remain in police custody for questioning in connection with the murder of Constable Carroll. 'Increased threat' There were minor disturbances in Craigavon on Tuesday night, where wheeled bins were set on fire after the police raids. Meanwhile, serving and former police officers due to give evidence to the Robert Hamill inquiry have been granted temporary anonymity. The ruling was made following Constable Carroll's murder and what the inquiry chairman said was the "increased security threat" to police officers in Northern Ireland. Police chiefs from Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic are to meet on Thursday to assess the security threat posed by dissident republicans. Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde and Garda Siochána Commissoner Fachtna Murphy will meet in Belfast. British and Irish ministers met for a security summit at Hillsborough Castle in County Down on Tuesday, where they pledged the attacks would not be allowed to derail the peace process.
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:57 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Many in the Irish government were supporters of the PIRA during the troubles and much of the funding and many of the terrorists came from the US just as they did from Libya. I remember once Reagan refused to hand terrorists to his beloved maggie back in the 80s despite being convicted. |
And most islamic terrorist groups of that era bombing US embassies and US marine bases in Lebanon were funded from London, the islamic banks were there, the HQ of most of the groups were there and most of the leaders and tops operatives. In fact this continued right up until the 7/11 tube bombing.
Thatcher and Reagan were pragmatists, Reagan got votes no-matter how misguided from so-called Irish-Americans* and Britain got Arab money. What's a few dead soldiers to either country?
*an interesting fact 3/5 of so-called Irish-Americans are descended not from Gailic Irish but Scots, English and Norman settlers. Though almost 100% delude themselves they are from Gailic irish, a great pub quiz question for a Boston bar.
Edited by Paul - 11-Mar-2009 at 19:01
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:58 |
Originally posted by Dolphin
This most certainly was terrorism. The two soldiers were off duty, and unless you forgo the brand of civilian forever when you become a soldier, they were civilians. |
occupation troops in foreign countries can also be off duty... the point is there is a clear-cut definition of terrorism, and by using this word you instrumentalize it for your own political agenda if used inaccuartely. some groups instrumentalize the word genocide for their own agendas but what prevents us from calling every war in history as genocide? same goes for terrorism. terrorism can most certainly not applied for each and every case of murder/assassination. as i understand, from the point of view of the perpetrators, the guys in question were occupation troops. furthermore, from what i can see, in both instances the targets were carefully selected and not randomly targeted as would be the case with terrorism.
Edited by Temujin - 11-Mar-2009 at 19:00
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Dolphin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:00 |
I don't understand your view Paul. What are you trying to say? What has the claim to Irish descent got to do with anything? Your hang-up about this is obviously an enduring one, you haven't let it go since I joined this site. Get over it.
What's a few soldiers? You are so right you miss the point completely.
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:02 |
Originally posted by es_bih
Then what was it a powder puff match? Of course it was terrorism, terrorists strike at military targets, too. Just take a look at the USS Cole bombing a few years back in the Gulf - that was an act of terror against the state (USA) by a terrorist organization. We didn't see much of a difference there - unsuspecting human beings killed in uniform or out of it is the same thing.
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then the Gulf of Tonkin incident was terrorism as well?
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Parnell
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:03 |
Originally posted by Paul
*an interesting fact 2/3 of so-called Irish-Americans are descended not from Gailic Irish but Scots, English and Norman settlers. Though almost 100% delude themselve they are from Gailic irish, a great pub quiz question for a Boston bar. |
Take it easy. The Presbyterian Scots-Irish emigrants from Ulster, travelled in waves over several hundred years, while the Irish Catholic Gaelic really began to emigrate from the 1840s onwards, meaning the roots of the Scots Irish are deeper and thus more interconnected than the Gaelic Irish. Therefore, those Irish of Scots descent are also Irish since their descendants came from Ireland. Unless you are on of those who denies that Protestants can indeed be Irish? Besides, the Gaelic Celt is an Austrian native. There is no such thing as a 'pure' ethnicity - its that kind of bull that creates this mess.
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:03 |
try being more coherant
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