Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

medieval swordfighting techniques

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Pytheus View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jul-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 135
  Quote Pytheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: medieval swordfighting techniques
    Posted: 04-Apr-2010 at 06:16
Originally posted by Mosquito

and here polish saber duel from Australia, duelist wearing Polish 17th century cloths, they are good and are presenting well saber hits:
 
 
 
 
Very nice sword fighting.
 
You can see comparing it to the two staged fights above the difference between staged and real fighting. Real fights swordsmen are much further apart out of range of the opponents sword and much more slow and considerate at looking for openings.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 18:44
Originally posted by Cryptic

An interesting post.  Though I think you need to give the professional atheletes more credit.
In the days prior to professional sports, I would not be surprised if an awful lot of human atheletic talent was funneled into the military. Heros from Hunter gatherer cultures do not seem to have the same reputation for mass killings as heros from sedentary cultures such as ancient Greece.
I was just trying to illustrate a fundamental principle in the martial arts, Crypt. That is, the principle of keeping your eyes wide open virtually all the time. Well, except for the fleeting occasional blink, which is a normal requirement of human biology. I was also trying to raise the point that, while being a basic requirement, it's something which does take a significant degree of training to master.Approve
 
Point being, if you blink at the wrong time, you're as good as toast.Cry
 
So, the more scared you are of that sword, or foot, or fist, coming at your face, all the more reason you've got to stay wide awake.Wink So that you're still in the position to block, parry, step aside or step back, then move in fast with a neat counter attack of your own.Big smile
 
I agree that footballers are also magnificent sportsmen. Some, or even many, of them would possess the athleticisim to shine in the martial arts, if they had the opportunity to participate in it for a significant length of time.Smile Wayne Rooney, for instance, was a competent boxer before he turned to pro football full time with Everton, before moving to Manchester United.Clap
 
As for hunter-gatherers and sedentary-culture warriors, I believe that the former killed the minimum that they had to do for food, territory or females, whereas the latter made killing into a glorified profession, in relation to which the specialist practitioners basked in and gloated about their achievements.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 05-Apr-2010 at 20:50
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 20:46
Originally posted by Pytheus

Very nice sword fighting.
 
You can see comparing it to the two staged fights above the difference between staged and real fighting. Real fights swordsmen are much further apart out of range of the opponents sword and much more slow and considerate at looking for openings.
Just like the difference between Olympic wrestling and WWF, eh?Wink
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 21:02
Supposedly, during the great period of "gentlemenly" warfare, only the "gentry" were actually trained for warfare! Others, except for poachers, were stuck to more mundane situations! While these "country bumpkins" might well be able to better the "gentry" in a man to man bout of fists and wrestling, when a weapon like a sword is inserted then the trained swordsman wins!

Gallentry, like that of the middle ages and later, led to the Chess like battlefields, where men were positoned like pawns, and led to massive casualties by the "gentry" who observed the battlefield, from a hill!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 21:54

I suppose, the swordless 'country bumpkin' could still have learnt to fight with a staff. Not a few 'country bumpkins' having being known to have more than his fair share of skill and artistry.

A good staff fighter, fast and nimble of movement, could still have beaten an average swordsman. Whip his leg, his arm, his ribs, his neck, his head or his face, real good, then wrest his sword. Then ... voila! ... the 'country bumpkin' is now ... a swordsman!
 
As a matter of interest, the basic strokes are practically almost the same, therefore almost interchangeable. Except that obviously you can't stab or slice with a staff.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 05-Apr-2010 at 22:01
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2010 at 13:28
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

I suppose, the swordless 'country bumpkin' could still have learnt to fight with a staff. Not a few 'country bumpkins' having being known to have more than his fair share of skill and artistry.
 
A good staff fighter, fast and nimble of movement, could still have beaten an average swordsman.
 
Or even a skilled swordsman.  The only person who fought Miyamoto Musashi (famed Japanese duelist) to a draw was a Buddhist priest armed with a humble Jo stick.  Likewise, Musashi fought and killed Sasaki Kojiro while armed with a carved boat oar. Musashi's opponent was not only an expert, but he was armed with a longsword.
 
As a side note, Musashi was almost killed by another monk with a humble modifed farming tool (Kusigarama, a sickle with a weighted chain). The monk imobilized Musashi (armed with a sword). Musashi was able to kill his opponent with a hidden dagger as the monk moved in for the kill.
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Whip his leg, his arm, his ribs, his neck, his head or his face, real good, then wrest his sword.
I saw a demonstation on T.V where an expert (Asian martial art form) demonstated how a stick can be used to either strike the nerve controling grasping or to break the wrists of a sword armed opponent.
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Except that obviously you can't stab or slice with a staff.
True, but an expert can create an awful lot of impact or thrusting force with a stick. The same T.V show demonstrated that a stick thrust by an expert can crush a larnyx.  
 
In regards to the thrusting force of sticks, prisoners in the USA are forbidden to carry rolled up newspapers. In the hands of a trained person, a column of tighty rolled newspapers can generate enough thrusting force to seriously harm someone.   


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Apr-2010 at 20:17
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2010 at 18:37
It is curious still, that I failed to mention the old fashioned "quarter-staff!", since I have always considered that anyone able to master such a weapon is the equal of any two men with nothing but swords!

Little John, in the movies, and TV was a specific example!

So, I defer to your example! As I would have to anyway! laugh!

But, if one was able to throw ones sword like a spear or a knife, then the man with the staff, might well be in trouble? A sword, stuck within the wooden staff might also cause problems?

Edited by opuslola - 06-Apr-2010 at 18:40
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2010 at 20:37
"So they stood, each in his place, neither moving a finger's breadth back, for one good hour, and many blows were given and received by each in that time, till here and there were sore bones and bumps, yet neither thought of crying 'Enough,' or seemed likely to fall from off the bridge. Now and then they stopped to rest, and each thought that he never had seen in all his life before such a hand at quarterstaff.
 
At last Robin gave the stranger a blow upon the ribs that made his jacket smoke like a damp straw thatch in the sun.  So shrewd was the stroke that the stranger came within a hair's breadth of falling off the bridge; but he regained himself right quickly, and, by a dexterous blow, gave Robin a crack on the crown that caused the blood to flow.
 
Then Robin grew mad with anger, and smote with all his might at the other; but the stranger warded the blow, and once again thwacked Robin, and this time so fairly that he fell heels over head into the water, as the queen pin falls in a game of bowls."
 
The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood, Howard Pyle

Sounds like Robin's very first encounter with Little John.

P.S.
If the sword is thrown at you, you could either just dance aside fast, or use the staff to deflect its path. Full evasion, i.e. the former, would be more economic on your energy, besides ensuring that your staff isn't damaged. You'd be better off saving it - both your energy and the staff - for the next move, just in case there is one. While your foe has lost his weapon.
 
If the sword is stuck in your staff (for that to happen, your staff must be helluva big, and his sword helluva small Wink), then again your opponent has lost his weapon. Now you can breathe easier.Smile If you wanna be even more adventurous, or spectacular, how about a high, swift and helluva hard flick kick, a la Jean-Claude Van Damme, to his face while he's struggling like hell to retrieve his blade.Approve


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 07-Apr-2010 at 00:18
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 02:09
Originally posted by Cryptic

Or even a skilled swordsman.  The only person who fought Miyamoto Musashi (famed Japanese duelist) to a draw was a Buddhist priest armed with a humble Jo stick.  Likewise, Musashi fought and killed Sasaki Kojiro while armed with a carved boat oar. Musashi's opponent was not only an expert, but he was armed with a longsword.
 
As a side note, Musashi was almost killed by another monk with a humble modifed farming tool (Kusigarama, a sickle with a weighted chain). The monk imobilized Musashi (armed with a sword). Musashi was able to kill his opponent with a hidden dagger as the monk moved in for the kill.
Did you mean to say, a joss stick? Yes, Musashi was an amazing swordsman. Kojiro's downfall was, according to Musashi, that he put too much faith in the sheer length of his sword.
 
Musashi won all his duels. He only fought his first few fights with a steel sword. Thereafter, he only used a wooden sword in all his bouts, and he still beat them all.
 
The 2nd monk, I think, was extremely unfortunate to have come up against someone like Musashi. Any other man, and I'd think he would have won.
 
Originally posted by Cryptic

I saw a demonstation on T.V where an expert (Asian martial art form) demonstated how a stick can be used to either strike the nerve controling grasping or to break the wrists of a sword armed opponent.
 
The nerve strike/press is powerful for both defence and offence. A cab driver, in his mid 40s, with a tae kwon do black belt during his youth, told me how he once disarmed a young would-be robber who had a knife at his throat. He bit the youth's arm, then pressed the nerve on his wrist like hell and hung on for dear life. The knife dropped, and the young man fled as soon as the cab driver stopped his vehicle.   
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 07:39
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Did you mean to say, a joss stick?
Jo stick.  A Joss stick is incense that is burned in Chinese temples.  The Jo stick armed priest, however, may have burned a Joss stick before facing Musashi.  Perhaps it made his Jo stick that  much strongerWink.
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 12:09
Originally posted by Pytheus

Originally posted by Mosquito

and here polish saber duel from Australia, duelist wearing Polish 17th century cloths, they are good and are presenting well saber hits:
 
 
 
 
Very nice sword fighting.
 
You can see comparing it to the two staged fights above the difference between staged and real fighting. Real fights swordsmen are much further apart out of range of the opponents sword and much more slow and considerate at looking for openings.
 
While i agree with you, we must remember one thing. These two are adult guys in middle age and this is their hobby. In the past people were starting their fencing lessons since childhood and probably practicing it everyday. It wasnt a sport or hobby like today but the matter of life. Especially in countries like Poland when duels were not forbidden by law... at least sbre duels. In 16-17th century Poland it was only forbidden to use some kind of warhammers called "czekan". But the fact that Polish-Lithuanian parliament issued over 20 bills prohibiting this weapon means that people were still using them.
 
This is the weapon called in Polish "czekan" or "nadziak"
 
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 17:29
I seem to remember that the sabre' duels at Heidelburg were for real! Many graduates took away their scars with pride!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1900germanstudents.html

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 07-Apr-2010 at 17:31
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 21:08
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Did you mean to say, a joss stick?
Jo stick.  A Joss stick is incense that is burned in Chinese temples.  The Jo stick armed priest, however, may have burned a Joss stick before facing Musashi.  Perhaps it made his Jo stick that  much strongerWink.
K. Prolly flushed it up with chi.Smile
 
So, the Jō stick was invented by someone named Musō Gonnosuke, was it? Wonder if he was a Muslim, or maybe a Jew. The name, you see, Musa, or Moshe.Wink
 
"When Musashi was in Edo, he met an adept named Musō Gonnosuke, who asked to fight him. Gonnosuke used a wooden sword. Musashi was in the process of making a small bow; he picked up a piece of firewood. Gonnosuke attacked him without even bowing, but he received a blow from Musashi that made him fall down. He was impressed and left."
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Mosquito View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Location: Sarmatia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2537
  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 14:02
Originally posted by opuslola

I seem to remember that the sabre' duels at Heidelburg were for real! Many graduates took away their scars with pride!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1900germanstudents.html

Regards,
 
I think duels were common everywhere as long as the law or those who were using it tollerated them. When the winner is treated like a criminal or even murderer, there is no place for honourable fight. Its a pity that today we cant settle the conflicts with other people in this way, it would make many things much more simple :)
 
I remember that most of codes of honour which were regulating the duel customs were saying that people of some professions cant take part in the duels. One of them were journalists who were considered as people without any honour to whom rule of honour have no use. If you kicked a journalist in ass and he wanted to challenge you, you could have refuse without any harm on your honour.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 20:07
Originally posted by Mosquito

I think duels were common everywhere as long as the law or those who were using it tollerated them. When the winner is treated like a criminal or even murderer, there is no place for honourable fight. Its a pity that today we cant settle the conflicts with other people in this way, it would make many things much more simple :)
The problem with duelling as a means of conflict resolution between individuals, is that, like war as a means of conflict resolution between states, it favours the side with better fighting ability. Other considerations, like right and wrong, ethics, legality, morality etc. etc. are simply then reduced to a side show, if anything.
 
The hope is then, that the side which is in the right would so imbued with motivation, plus endowed with not a little advantage by some higher power, that he would be driven to win. But that is often nothing more than wishful thinking. The winner, even if he was in the wrong, would just go on to claim divinely ordained righteousness. Might made right. Again.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 12-Apr-2010 at 20:16
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 18:07
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Mosquito

I think duels were common everywhere as long as the law or those who were using it tollerated them. When the winner is treated like a criminal or even murderer, there is no place for honourable fight. Its a pity that today we cant settle the conflicts with other people in this way, it would make many things much more simple :)
The problem with duelling as a means of conflict resolution between individuals, is that, like war as a means of conflict resolution between states, it favours the side with better fighting ability.
 
Good point.
 
Traditionaly, most duels in the USA had little to do with fighting ability. They were designed to be just dangerous enough that insults were not given lightly and that women were impressed. 
 
Several customs prevented too many upper class gentlemen from getting killed. For example:
-40 paces (usually large pacesWink) of seperation moved the combatants out of accurate pistol range
-A misfire, pretty common, counted as a shot
-Demanding more shots was discouraged and considered unsporting
-It was also considered unsporting to aim
-It was acceptable to place Bibles etc in chest pockets
-Duelists could place their arms over their chests and angle their bodies to give a small target 
 
In the 1840s, professional hitmen armed with reliable, accurate, a higher velocity pistols began to gun down gentlemen in murders disguised as "duels". The dueling custom then ended for the upper class with the exception of French influenced Louisiana where they lasted until the 1890s.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 13-Apr-2010 at 20:24
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 18:30
Thanks Cryptic, those were things I did not know!

Even I am surprised? laugh!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2011 at 21:31
Originally posted by Mosquito

Well, later arabic people used sabers which were adopted by Turks and from Turks it came to eastern Europe. In Poland sabers became national weapon and most valued were sabers made of Damascus steel. Persian sabers were popular in Poland trough centuries. I found on you tube some people practicing Polish saber fencing which i guess cant be much different from persian saber fencing altough there is also somthing like Polish school of saber fencing so there might be some differences:
 


 


 

and here polish saber duel from Australia, duelist wearing Polish 17th century cloths, they are good and are presenting well saber hits:

 


 

 

 

 

 

When did they first start using sabres in Poland?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
unclefred View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

Suspended, Historum joker

Joined: 09-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 337
  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2011 at 11:32
/throughout the last half of the 19th century dueling was in resurgence in Germany and Austria-Hungary.
In 1900 the Minister of War defended the practice in the Reichstag on the grounds that without it there was no way to deter immediate bloodshed when  insults were exchanged. Unwillingness to fight was considered cowardice. Count Ledrowski of the Austria-Hungary General Staff was asked to resign his commission when he advised a Lt. to not fight a duel. By this time the epee had become the dueling weapon of the country, but in army circles and throughout Austria the Saber was the weapon of choice.
Naval officers stuck to the cutlass.
In Germany in this period, about 20% of duels resulted in death. Often, what appeared as a minor blood-letting ended in death. Even if no internal organs were injured, the ragged wound would result in a fatal infection. Duelists typically would be sure to drain their bladders befor a fight and not eat before, in an effort to limit infection. Nevertheless, most died long after the fight.
Loss of blood was perhaps the greatest fatal danger. Deep cuts to the head or torso were difficult to treat. Embolism, suffocation and collapsed lungs were formidable consequences.
 
-info from By the Sword, Richard Cohen.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.