Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Massilia, Greek or Phoenician?
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Suspended

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1296 		  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Massilia, Greek or Phoenician?
    Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 18:44
I have read conflicting histories as to the founders of present-day Marseille. As usual, the incompetent teachers at my high school can offer no response other than "Do some research". Can some one answer my question?
Back to Top
lastbout View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-Feb-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28 		  Quote lastbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 20:47
I think Greeks controled and colonized the area, from all the maps I have seen..
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 21:39
One of the few places that do "pay tribute" to their founders. If you ever visit, I suggest by ship, you'll see on the dock how they mention that the founders of their city, was the ancient Hellines.
Back to Top
conon394 View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 165 		  Quote conon394 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 22:25

Belisarius

Phallanx is dead on correct. There was a lot of competition in the west in the early period of Greek and Phoenician colonization, a lot of sites had rival trading posts and colonies planed very close together by both Phoenicians and Greeks. But there is no doubt that Massilia was Greek colony. It was founded circa 600 BC by the Phocaeans (Ionian Greeks from Phoaea). I wonder if the name similarity to Phoenician did not cause the confusion.
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 03:27

Some more info:

According to the history of Marseilles, the city was founded in the VIth century B.C., as Massalia, by Greek colonists coming from Phocea, Asia Minor (Marseilles is still nicknamed "la cit phocenne" and its inhabitants "Phocens").

The Greeks, led by Protis, moored in the Lacydon inlet (now the Vieux-Port) and joined the festival given by the local Ligurian ruler for the marriage of his daughter Gyptis. According to the Ligurian law, the girl to be married had to select herself her future husband by offering him a ritual bowl. Gyptis was fascinated by the beauty of the Greek sailor and chose him.

Of cource the story is probably a myth, designed to show the good relations between Greeks and native people.

A map of greece:

A map showing the extend of Greek collonization:



Edited by Yiannis
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
Alparslan View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517 		  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 04:41

Originally posted by Belisarius

I have read conflicting histories as to the founders of present-day Marseille. As usual, the incompetent teachers at my high school can offer no response other than "Do some research". Can some one answer my question?

Marseille has been established by Phocaen, today in Turkey at north of Izmir, my birth place. We call it Foca today.

The name of the city comes from the animal phok or monk seals. Although their numbers decreased a lot the greatest colony in Mediterrane live on the shores of Turkey especially around Foca. Now they are under very serious protection. The symbol of city was phok.

Our lovely phoks.

Siren Rocks

The colorful rocks, from cotton-white to gypsy pink colors, arising as an iceberg in the middle of the sea, the caves embraced with the sea at the shores, wide-spread rocks into the open sea which has shallowness in their surrounding. Among these rock formations there are convenient canals providing passage to the motor-boats.
In the lyric tales of Homeros these rock are mentioned as Siren rockies which were deceiving the sailors and causing them to hit their ships to the rocks. The biggest of the wide-spred seal resembling small island in the Focaea harbor is Orak Island Rockies.
The sirens are female headed, bird bodied, magic voiced creatures that attract sailors. In Odyssey of Homer, one of the worst adventures of Odyssey is the Siren. In this mythology it is believed that all the sailors that heard the sings of Sirens have cast a spell on. Odyssey while passing through the Sirens closes his mouth and closes the ears of his crew so even if he gets the magic and tell his crew to stop, the crew will not hear him and they will pass with safety. 

Siren rocks of Homer's Odyssey

Today Foca

Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 09:37
[QUOTE]Marseille has been established by Phocaen, today in Turkey at north of Izmir, my birth place. We call it Foca today.[QUOTE]

At some times, I do find this whole "Turks connecting ancient Hellas to them and their culture"  kind of entertaining, but must admit that, I do admire how well organized you are when presenting our (note: Hellinic) ancestors.

Anyway,  there are some historians that suggest that Marseille was founded before "PHOKEA" (Anatolia) by the "original" people of "PHOKIS" (central Hellas) and  that they only later establish the city of "Phokea" when they fled towards Anatolia.
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Suspended

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1296 		  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 14:17
Perhaps it would be best if I gave an example of a conflicting source.

http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html

Here it states that Marseille was founded as a Phoenician trading post before coming under the influence of the Greeks.
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283 		  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:35
True this is an opposite opinion, but nowhere in their site do they mention what the Phoenician origin was. (hint, see Sea People and their origin)
Now it is also quite interesting that half of the alleged Phoenician colonies have names that can easily be explained/translated in the Hellinic language, proving their origin.
Some of many exaples:
Kition, Neapolis, Leptis, Oia, Thapsos, Panormus, Karalis, Tharros, Lixos, Malaka

Just one of many interesting quotes of this allegedly historically correct article. They maintain that :
"Cyprus had Phoenician settlements by the 9th century BC."

But this proves NOTHING because the author conveniently neglected to leave out the fact that we find Mycenean buildings that date to 1400BC or the Mycenean buildings found in the excavation of Ekron. We have PROOF of a a large, well constructed building which covers 240 square meters.
Its walls are broad, designed to support a second story and its wide, entrance leads to a large hall, partly covered with a roof supported on a row of columns.
In the floor of the hall is a circular hearth paved with pebbles, as is typical in Mycenean buildings. Or just look up pottery styles, not to mention the numerous records of Pharaoh Ramses III ,Amos ,Jeremiah ,Herodotus,Tacitus, "prophet" Zephaniah all mention the Phoenician origin.
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2011 at 12:02
How old were signs of Phoenician alphabet?During Macedon Empire they were used as we could see from stone scripts.Who did letters for alphabet?They were done institutionally or was known name of the person?


Edited by medenaywe - 22-Feb-2011 at 13:59
Back to Top
archaiokapilos View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 14-Mar-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27 		  Quote archaiokapilos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2011 at 07:25
there is a misunderstanding of phoenician history allready established in antiquity. The ancient Greeks thought that the Phoenicians were much older of them but this has been proven to be false since they became important as merchants and colonizers only after 10th century b.C. long after the decline of Myceneans
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.