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calvo
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Topic: On being mistaken for being Chinese... Posted: 03-Mar-2009 at 22:07 |
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pebbles
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by calvo
Mongols
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calvo ... first 2 Mongol males ( counting from L to R ) look typical northern Han-Chinese .
As for Kazakhs & Kirgyz,they're clearly not Caucasoid-looking to my eyes.By the way,a few of them can pass as " Chinese " .
Edited by pebbles - 04-Mar-2009 at 01:25
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 01:27 |
Well, my wife was confussed with Chinese once, in Canada, by a Chinese woman teller at a Chinese shop.... And we are both 100% Chileans
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pebbles
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 03:16 |
Originally posted by calvo
Some Kazakhs
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The far-right Kazakh male looks exactly like Hong-Kong southern Han-Chinese actor 梁家輝
Ladies in this photo can't hardly pass as Chinese,except one seated far-left might be mistaken as Vietnamese or Thai.
Edited by pebbles - 04-Mar-2009 at 03:16
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calvo
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 08:09 |
The fact that they can pass for Chinese doesn't mean that they're necessarily more related to the Chinese. And for this very reason, they could get very offended if people mistook them for Chinese.
For example, I don't think that most southern Italians and Spaniards would be quite happy if you mistook them for "Moroccan", although many of them could easily pass for Moroccan in their looks.
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pebbles
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 08:59 |
I understand your point.
The word " Chinese " has negative connotation nowadays,so common sense tells me that these nationalities most likely would be offended by association or grudge ( for political reason ).It's just my 2 cents.
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calvo
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 10:46 |
Originally posted by pebbles
I understand your point.
The word " Chinese " has negative connotation nowadays,so common sense tells me that these nationalities most likely would be offended by association or grudge ( for political reason ).It's just my 2 cents.
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I don't really agree. The Chinese do not have a bad reputation at all, at least the people. The government and foreign policy is another issue, as there are numerous cases of human rights abuse. At least in educated circles of western Europe, Chinese culture is regarded in high esteem. In general, people would consider it offensive if they were mistaken for a nationality that they have little in common with. Most British wouldn't like it so much if you mistook them for French; most Rumanians would be offended if you called them Russian; most Uraguayans get VERY offended if you called them "Argentinian"... and the list goes on. In the West, ignorance makes many people perceive anyone with Oriental features as "Chinese" (although not in a perjorative way); while people with these features (who also include Eskimos, Lapps, Samoyeds, and Ugrian peoples) could come from a wide range of nationalities and cultures whose history and customs have nothing to do with each other. I remember reading an essay by the Polish journalist Ryzsard Kapuscinski, who spent 40 years as a correspondent in Africa. By having light skinned, many Africans called him "English" or treated him like a colonial exploiter; and he said to them: "I am from Poland. We never colonized anyone. Instead we've only been colonized by other European colonialist powers, just like Africa."
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Sarmat
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 13:42 |
Of all three sets of pictures Mongols definitely look more "Chinese" than the others.
Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs on the other hand do reveal Caucasian admixture. I also need to add that Kazakh phenotype is very diverse. In one of my Kazakh friends' family there are members that are both typical Mongoloids and typical Europeoids.
As about the Chinese culture, I have no doubt it's one of the most advanced culture the world has ever known and far superior to many espects of so-called "European culture."
We definitely shouldn't look at Europeans unsophisticated opinions that "all the Asians look Chinese" as a standard of any sort.
I actually heard that the designation "Mongol" has a negative meaning in France. Another example of European bias and complex of superiority.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 15:13 |
Originally posted by calvo
goes on.
In the West, ignorance makes many people perceive anyone with Oriental features as "Chinese" (although not in a perjorative way); while people with these features (who also include Eskimos, Lapps, Samoyeds, and Ugrian peoples) could come from a wide range of nationalities and cultures whose history and customs have nothing to do with each other.
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Well, is it really a problem? Ask a Chinese to spot the Italian in a group of Spaniards, or a Turk in Athens. People are really too sensitive if they take offense from these things. Making statements like "they're all the same anyway" might be called ignorant. Not being able to distinguish the visual differences between ethnicities on the other side of the planet isn't really down to ignorance (it's hardly a life-important skill).
Another example of European bias and complex of superiority. |
Human trait, not European. Go on the streets of Shanghai and see what people think of Vietnamese and the other neighbours, Africans, Europeans, Arabs, etc. Or other Chinese for that matter.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Mar-2009 at 15:17
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Sarmat
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 15:47 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Well, is it really a problem? Ask a Chinese to spot the Italian in a group of Spaniards, or a Turk in Athens. People are really too sensitive if they take offense from these things. Making statements like "they're all the same anyway" might be called ignorant. Not being able to distinguish the visual differences between ethnicities on the other side of the planet isn't really down to ignorance (it's hardly a life-important skill). |
Well. It is a problem. It's a matter of your attitude and I would say politeness. If you can't distinguish between "them" just call them Asians, it's much more appropriate than calling Mongols Chinese and vice versa, believe me. Chinese just call Caucasians Bai ren (white people) and it doesn't sound wrong at all both for a Turk or a Scandinavian.
Another example of European bias and complex of superiority. |
Human trait, not European. Go on the streets of Shanghai and see what people think of Vietnamese and the other neighbours, Africans, Europeans, Arabs, etc. Or other Chinese for that matter. [/QUOTE]
This is not exacly the problem that we are discussing here.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Sarmat
Well. It is a problem. It's a matter of your attitude and I would say politeness. If you can't distinguish between "them" just call them Asians, it's much more appropriate than calling Mongols Chinese and vice versa, believe me. Chinese just call Caucasians Bai ren (white people) and it doesn't sound wrong at all both for a Turk or a Scandinavian. |
Well, I personally never call anyone anything until they tell me what they call themselves. I think we are discussing slightly different things though. The poster I quoted claimed it was due to "ignorance" - a very negatively loaded word - that Europeans can't see the difference between say a Chinese and a Mongol. A statement I do not agree with. To start calling every oriental-looking person "Chinese" is a difference matter altogether, and I don't think that's as common as implied.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Mar-2009 at 16:07
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calvo
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 16:35 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Well, I personally never call anyone anything until they tell me what they call themselves. I think we are discussing slightly different things though. The poster I quoted claimed it was due to "ignorance" - a very negatively loaded word - that Europeans can't see the difference between say a Chinese and a Mongol. A statement I do not agree with. To start calling every oriental-looking person "Chinese" is a difference matter altogether, and I don't think that's as common as implied.
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No, I wasn't accusing anyone for being biassed or anything. I personally cannot distinguish always a Chinese from a Mongol due to my ignorance (for not knowing enough Chinese and Mongols), and I admit to it. What I was talking about is a different thing altogether; one is not being able to tell the difference, the other is calling anyone who's oriental-looking "Chinese" without even asking, which is what we often do here is Spain; where "chino" just basically mean Oriental. I could imagine this remark to be offensive to some nationalities who consider themselves very different to Chinese. For example, I also can't distinguish Argentinians from Uruguayans due to their similar accent; but after knowing that Uruguayans perceive themselves as very different to their Argentine neighbours, I generally tend to ask someone's nationality before calling them "Argentine" by default. However, due to ignorance, many people do not; and it isn't something good or bad.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 17:10 |
For sure ignorance is bad. If you're not sure who is he or she why wouldn't asking first?
It's totally understandable not to be able to identify to which Asian country a person belongs right away, but it's not OK to call him "Chinese" by default.
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Temujin
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 17:13 |
Originally posted by Sarmat
As about the Chinese culture, I have no doubt it's one of the most advanced culture the world has ever known and far superior to many espects of so-called "European culture."
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i thought exactly the same until i actually went there, then my opinion was completely reversed for good.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:01 |
Originally posted by Sarmat
For sure ignorance is bad. If you're not sure who is he or she why wouldn't asking first? |
I totally agree with that.
Originally posted by Sarmat
It's totally understandable not to be able to identify to which Asian country a person belongs right away, but it's not OK to call him "Chinese" by default. |
Of course, never said anything against it.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:07 |
Originally posted by Temujin
i thought exactly the same until i actually went there, then my opinion was completely reversed for good.
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What exactly changed your opinion?
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Temujin
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:23 |
well a lot of things, people spitting on the street, general unpoliteness (same in europe though), people caring little for their own culture in the first place like destroying an old building to construct a road over it just for money gain, and finally eating habit.
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MarcoPolo
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:25 |
Originally posted by calvo
Originally posted by pebbles
I understand your point.
The word " Chinese " has negative connotation nowadays,so common sense tells me that these nationalities most likely would be offended by association or grudge ( for political reason ).It's just my 2 cents.
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I don't really agree. The Chinese do not have a bad reputation at all, at least the people. The government and foreign policy is another issue, as there are numerous cases of human rights abuse. At least in educated circles of western Europe, Chinese culture is regarded in high esteem.
In general, people would consider it offensive if they were mistaken for a nationality that they have little in common with. Most British wouldn't like it so much if you mistook them for French; most Rumanians would be offended if you called them Russian; most Uraguayans get VERY offended if you called them "Argentinian"... and the list goes on.
In the West, ignorance makes many people perceive anyone with Oriental features as "Chinese" (although not in a perjorative way); while people with these features (who also include Eskimos, Lapps, Samoyeds, and Ugrian peoples) could come from a wide range of nationalities and cultures whose history and customs have nothing to do with each other.
I remember reading an essay by the Polish journalist Ryzsard Kapuscinski, who spent 40 years as a correspondent in Africa. By having light skinned, many Africans called him "English" or treated him like a colonial exploiter; and he said to them: "I am from Poland. We never colonized anyone. Instead we've only been colonized by other European colonialist powers, just like Africa."
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@ Pebbles: I dont think that Chinese have a bad reputation, what would be more prudent to say is that amongst those communities that being confused with and calling them ''Chinese'' when they are not, has a negative connotation in their respective communities. As most of these communities cant compare with the more populous (>1 Billion) chinese versus their more than likely smaller numbers.
As an example, In the Pakistani and Afghan community particularly those of darker complexion, to be labelled as ''indian'' is considered as a negative thing and has a negative connotation in the community. This is further confounded by political problems and the historical antagonism vis a vis culture.
@Calvo: I agree. The story about the Polish fellow was interesting. In Pakistan/Afghanistan in the Pashto dialect, most Europeans are simply referred to as ''Angraize'' which means ''English'' lol! Mind you that with the low literacy rate and lack of exposure, im sure, is only fueling this misnomer; but gradually with exposure and awareness the situation should technically improve. So, in this day and age of easily available information and sensitivities, people should be more tactful before ''labelling'' someone without jumping to conclusion as they can be offended.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 18:51 |
Originally posted by Temujin
well a lot of things, people spitting on the street, general unpoliteness (same in europe though), people caring little for their own culture in the first place like destroying an old building to construct a road over it just for money gain, and finally eating habit. |
Yeah, regarding these I have to agree with you. But note that I meant some of the aspects not the culture as a whole.
The government of Beijing had spent tons of money last year trying to convince the residents of the capital that spitting on the streets in inappropriate...
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Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 20:06 |
Originally posted by calvo
..In general, people would consider it offensive if they were mistaken for a nationality that they have little in common with. Most British wouldn't like it so much if you mistook them for French; most Rumanians would be offended if you called them Russian; most Uraguayans get VERY offended if you called them "Argentinian"... and the list goes on. ... |
I was confussed with Greek, twice. That was strange.
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