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Creation of Islam

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Islam
    Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 22:58
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Guys let us stop the discussion, stupid topic leads us to a turk-persian argument

This is the Minefield, a space for such topics. It is watched closely to prevent such things.

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 23:45
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih


The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate. 
 
We could debate this ad nauseam -- actually, we have before, haven't we? Wink Suffice it to say that I maintain that the wars may only be considered defensive in the loosest sense of the word, and that if we take a very selective reading. Still, this is a legitimate point of debate. My original point, however, that the spread of Islam was expedited by the sword, defensive or not. Remember, I'm trying to clarify something I think we all to often speak carelessly about.
 
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.
 
Well, first, I don't think anyone would assert that there wasn't any pressure to convert. If you would like to argue along those lines, I'd love to hear an explanation.
 
Second, pressured conversion need not be swift; indeed, it often is not. Keep in mind how persistent paganism was in the Roman empire. The various cults survived the Constantinian dispensation, the Theodosian edicts, etc., and didn't really become supressed outwardly until the middle of the sixth century. In the East, they continued in a severely marginalized, occasionally syncretic form well into the Medieval period. In the West, many persisted even later. Point being, history demonstrates that the conversion of an entire subject population through social and economic pressure is a gradual process.
 
-Akolouthos


Again I said there were sporadic events throughout history of forced conversions or stressed ones. But, none of these can be applied to the early Caliphate as a state or Islam as a religion. Why? Well the religion does not preach it, and the state did not practice and in the early times did not favor conversion. Remember, more taxes from non-army recruits than form eligible recruits. Incidentally Arab Christians from the peninsula served in the conquests. So again - they were neither pressured to convert nor did, but actually participated on the same level. In less numbers because there were less of course, but that is a matter of statistics rather than them not being allowed to do so.


 
I think you mistook my meaning, so I'll try to clarify it once more. I am trying not to oversimplify the question. My suggestion was not what you generally run into, and what you are arguing against here -- at least not primarily. My point was a bit more subtle. I simply mean to say that Islam benefited from the fruits of conquest --it expanded the area which was under the Muslim yoke. Furthermore, it is absolutely absurd to say that there was no pressure to convert; what on earth would you call the jizya? The pressures I was mentioning were social and economic; the fact that the regions in question were taken by the sword is not a direct cause for the conversion, but an indirect one -- it allowed a situation in which pressure could be applied. I doubt you and I would ever agree on whether or not Islam is "spread by the sword" in any absolute sense, and there is a legitimate debate; the terms here are not exactly the same as those in the many other threads discussing the role of violence in Islam. I was simply asserting what is evident from history itself.
 
As for the conquests, pressure, etc. I would point out that this was all a part of Islam from the point of its inception. This distinguishes it from other religions, and specifically Christianity. By comparison, it isn't until late in the third century that you first see Christian militants burning pagan temples and such, and not until Heraclius do you see a proto-Crusader mentality.
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 00:12
Evrenosgazi, I totally agree. It is a stupid topic and the intentions of the man who created this topic was for his own personal, and dare I say, dubious reasons. He can expalin his rationale and intent if he really wanted to be honest with us.
 
I do not appreciate his insults nor do I think for a brief moment that his thread is of any value other than fodder for CoC violations. Do not for a brief moment think this is a critical evaluation of Islam or of Islam's prophet for the sake of our education. It is purely an act of trollish behavior intended to piss off a few members. All one had to do is look up our Philosophy and Religion section to find numerous threads on Islam that currently exist. Instead, this new topic was created and placed in the Minefield for very specific and spiteful reasons.
 
I will keep this thread open for the sake of playing dumb! I can do that as well as the next guy!


Edited by Seko - 23-Jan-2009 at 00:14
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 00:36
It seems some members take this thread seriously, and over reacted.


Edited by Suren - 23-Jan-2009 at 00:36
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 01:02
Originally posted by Suren

It seems some members take this thread seriously, and over reacted.


Looks like it



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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 07:35
Originally posted by Seko

Did you guys know that I am also a Prophet? I foresee the value of this thread for only the creator, Dariosaur! I also know why he created this thread. Maybe he can tell you all why also! What do you say Cyrus?
That is simple, Israel has the same value for me that Islam has for you. Please at least be impartial! Wink
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 07:50
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Mazdakism was an off shoot of zoroastrianism and there is simply no connection whatsoever between a proto-communist religion and a one that punishes adultry with death.

Al-Jassas
I didn't say Islam was the same Mazdakism!! The obvious fact is that Mazdakism, like other pre-Islam relgions, had a strong influence on this relgion.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 10:16
Originally posted by Bulldog

How does Science undermine religions credibility? Islam enourages the Sciences and Learning, something unfortunately alot of the muslim world has forgotten.


It does, but only as long as the results do not contradict the doctrine.

Originally posted by suren

don't you understand the atmosphere? IT IS A JOKE. begripe?!


Well I was laughing as I wrote it.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 13:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Seko

Did you guys know that I am also a Prophet? I foresee the value of this thread for only the creator, Dariosaur! I also know why he created this thread. Maybe he can tell you all why also! What do you say Cyrus?
That is simple, Israel has the same value for me that Islam has for you. Please at least be impartial! Wink


And that is what it boils down to folks! Cyrus evidently gets all bent out of shape when  topics on Israel were opened. So what does he do? He acts like a little kid and attacks Islam!

Keep you animosity to yourself then Cyrus.

Gee, Cyrus how many times do you see me attacking Judaism or Christianity for that matter? I could if I wanted but since I do not care to lower myself with flagrant disrespect to others I leave well enough alone. You, on the other hand, have acted foolishly and have encouraged a thread containing childish posts. You should be proud of yourself!

If you don't like a particular thread on AE then provide your arguements instead of creating diversions and attacking another religion for the sake of you personal foibles.

And damn right I take it seriously when AE is used as your or anyone elses punching bag for certain relgions or countries.


Edited by Seko - 23-Jan-2009 at 13:55
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 14:40
I don't know enough about the subject to be in this discussion, but before someone loses both legs in the Minefield, I suggest we seriously consider closing this thread.
 
 
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 14:42
Well, this thread isn't going anywhere good, but I'm pretty sure it's going somewhere entertaining.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 17:34
Due to misunderstanding and some other odd reasons this thread turn to a disaster. I saw wrong claims and unprofessional approaches.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 18:45

Seko, people believe in their country and their nationality, as much as you believe in you religion, do you know how many people have been killed so for in the defense of their countries? Why do you think religious beliefs are more important than nationalist beliefs? You don't attack relgions but you can insult the whole Iranian people by calling our National Hero "Dariosaur"!!! Angry



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 23-Jan-2009 at 18:46
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 19:11
people believe in their country and their nationality, as much as you believe in you religion
So Israel is your country and Israeli is your nationality? Then why are you worried about Dariosaur?


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 23-Jan-2009 at 19:12
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 19:42
Israel is my country for the same reason as Palestine is yours!!
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:38
Cyrus
You don't attack relgions but you can insult the whole Iranian people by calling our National Hero "Dariosaur"!!! Angry


You've insulted the Iranian people a whole lot more by attacking the religion of 98% of Iran so its ironic to feel offended by a joke about a an old King.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 21:17
Darius the Great was one of our greatest kings, you could say he was not a great king, we have discussed about it in several threads in AE, you could even say he was not actually a king but you are directly insulting to this Iranian national hero by calling him a "Dinosaur"!!!
 
Did I say something similar to it about the prophet of Islam, wasn't he illiterate? or a merchant? those are just my interpretation of some historical events in that period, I never insult to anyone.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 21:54
One example of what people in Iran may find offensive.

Cyrus
The book, which was collected later from his stories, is full of errors.


I think people take more offense to slurs against their faith than against a historic king.
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 22:01
Originally posted by Bulldog

Cyrus
You don't attack relgions but you can insult the whole Iranian people by calling our National Hero "Dariosaur"!!! Angry


You've insulted the Iranian people a whole lot more by attacking the religion of 98% of Iran so its ironic to feel offended by a joke about a an old King.
 

Bulldog with all respect remember that Iran is a theocracy with no freedom of religion and it get's worse all the time. Prosecution still happens of religious minorities and also to people who dare to get the taught of leaving Islam and freedom of religion is very regulated. Many immigrants from Iran that I know of could not even dare to leave Islam while in Iran because they will get extreme punishment for it of the government finds out it seems to get even worse now when talk about pure death penalty to anyone who leaves Islam.

In regimes like that I do not think one can purely say how many % someone is Muslim because many of them might be or not might not be believing Muslims but they do not dare to say that.

So yeah Iran is majority Muslim nation but to lay exact numbers cannot be done in totalitarian theocracies.

All love from some girl


Edited by Some - 23-Jan-2009 at 22:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 23:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Seko, people believe in their country and their nationality, as much as you believe in you religion, do you know how many people have been killed so for in the defense of their countries? Why do you think religious beliefs are more important than nationalist beliefs? You don't attack relgions but you can insult the whole Iranian people by calling our National Hero "Dariosaur"!!! Angry



If you are insulted by Dariosaur...then we should be insulted by Germans being alleged 'Iranian' speakers, etc....

not only that, but to be insulted by something that was created out of comedic relief is rather childish. As your actions to create a insultive thread just to get attention. Not my fault that a multitude of people think Israel should be criticized. Perhaps you should have attacked the conglomerate, or each individual group found here that critiqued, but not singled one group out.

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