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Creation of Islam

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Islam
    Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 06:45
There is a thread in "Philosophy and Theology" forum with the title: "Who was jesus, Prophet?", it is good that I also ask here "Who was Muhammad, prophet?"
 
I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!! The fact is that he was just a merchant who travelled to some neighbour countires of Arabia and learnt somethings from the followers of those religion (of course not very good, anyway he was illiterate and could just rely on his memory) and came back home and narrated them to the people of an isolated desert region, who had never heard these things, The book, which was collected later from his stories, is full of errors. There are numrous non-Arbaic (Greek, Persian, Latin, ...) relgious words in this book, that about most of them, we see the narrator had not understood the meaning of them correctly, like the word al-Fardos (Paradise)!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:40
And the fun continues...


I was going to say more, but I will let this brilliant comment by Omar do it for me:
Originally posted by Omar


(And seriously, the Sassanids lost 1300 years ago. Get over it already!)

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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:43
Are you serious Cyrus? I hope not!Confused

Edited by Suren - 22-Jan-2009 at 07:48
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:44
Originally posted by es_bih

And the fun continues...


I was going to say more, but I will let this brilliant comment by Omar do it for me:
Originally posted by Omar


(And seriously, the Sassanids lost 1300 years ago. Get over it already!)

Sassanids are back better watch yourselfWink
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:50
Originally posted by Suren

Originally posted by es_bih

And the fun continues...


I was going to say more, but I will let this brilliant comment by Omar do it for me:
Originally posted by Omar


(And seriously, the Sassanids lost 1300 years ago. Get over it already!)

Sassanids are back better watch yourselfWink



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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:56
you must tell ali sina this fact and destroy the foundation of islam, the wold must know the truth cyrus, zoroaster zindabad, israel zindabad and shahmiri zindabad
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:57
LOL
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 08:07
  Viva Abu muslim.

Edited by Suren - 23-Jan-2009 at 17:57
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 08:44

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!!

IMHO, there is no such thing. Just cult leaders, petty ones and larger-than-life ones.

The really good ones are able to do just what you describe: they take bits and pieces and build a brand new model. Like a car manufacturer. They use succesful things from earlier designs, add a few new twists, and come out with a shiny new religion. The petty ones just mimic the great ones in a watered-down sort of way, and are quickly forgotten.

The really great ones are very rare, because it requires a very unique combination of talents. They have to be brilliant, true geniuses, in order to create a very appealing religious system which can mesmerize people, and they have to be extremely charismatic to get it off the ground. Genius and charisma tend to be a rare combination, all the more so when both qualities are taken to such extreme heights. Figures like this were probably like a cross between Einstein and Kennedy (or, perhaps to be more current, Obama and Stephen Hawking).

You get a combination like that and they're going to do something incredible ... really transform the world, shake it to its roots ... even though I don't consider them to have been talking directly to God, I can definately understand how such a person could give that impression. It would very much seem that way if you were to meet someone like that in person. Some of them probably posed as gods, themselves.



Edited by edgewaters - 22-Jan-2009 at 08:49
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 08:50
  Edited to make sure no body misunderstand.


Edited by Suren - 23-Jan-2009 at 17:58
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 13:13
Originally posted by Suren

Are you serious Cyrus? I hope not!Confused
Astaghfirallah! LOL
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 13:52
The fact is that he was just a merchant who travelled to some neighbour countires of Arabia and learnt somethings from the followers of those religion (of course not very good, anyway he was illiterate and could just rely on his memory) and came back home and narrated them to the people of an isolated desert region, who had never heard these things,
 
Yeah, Yeah Prophet was only one who interested with trade..Ermm
 
Now It make sense..
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:08
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!!

IMHO, there is no such thing. Just cult leaders, petty ones and larger-than-life ones.

The really good ones are able to do just what you describe: they take bits and pieces and build a brand new model. Like a car manufacturer. They use succesful things from earlier designs, add a few new twists, and come out with a shiny new religion. The petty ones just mimic the great ones in a watered-down sort of way, and are quickly forgotten.

The really great ones are very rare, because it requires a very unique combination of talents. They have to be brilliant, true geniuses, in order to create a very appealing religious system which can mesmerize people, and they have to be extremely charismatic to get it off the ground. Genius and charisma tend to be a rare combination, all the more so when both qualities are taken to such extreme heights. Figures like this were probably like a cross between Einstein and Kennedy (or, perhaps to be more current, Obama and Stephen Hawking).

You get a combination like that and they're going to do something incredible ... really transform the world, shake it to its roots ... even though I don't consider them to have been talking directly to God, I can definately understand how such a person could give that impression. It would very much seem that way if you were to meet someone like that in person. Some of them probably posed as gods, themselves.

Islam had absolutely nothing new to say and there was no way to spread this relgion without sword, of course there were some people around Muhammad like some Persian Mazdakists who were really genuine, they had to satisfy this man who was accepted as a prophet among Arabs!
 
[Quran, 33:50] O prophet! We have made lawful to you any believing woman (married or not) who dedicates her soul to the prophet; this only for you, and not for the believers. We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; in order that there should be no difficulty for you. And Allah is oft-forgiving most merciful.
 
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:29
Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust, remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems. It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself. It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
 
 
Al-Jassas
 
PS: the passage from the Quran above, it has a story behind it, read it carefully and you will understand it.
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:29
Marvelous! He's back with more subterfuge and blood to spill. Cyrus are you ever satisfied and do you actually think we care about your misinformation?  We do get tired of correcting your rubbish you know.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:34
If your point, Cyrus, is that Islam was a construct based on already existing doctrines and not something handed down from a god, then any rational person would agree with you. This is true for all religions though, Zoroastrianism too. Religion however will endure regardless of how scientific advances may undermine its credibility, as science cannot counteract man's fear of non-existence or his need to believe there is universal and absolute justice.

Originally posted by Suren

Sassanids are back better watch yourselfWink


Where? Iran's present government is an insult to Persian history and culture.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:57
How does Science undermine religions credibility?
Islam enourages the Sciences and Learning, something unfortunately alot of the muslim world has forgotten.


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Jan-2009 at 15:11
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust
just or unjust, that is a fact.
 
remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems.
I think you are talking about clericalism: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clericalism an undue influence of the hierarchy and clergy in public affairs and government, yes? Shia Muslims don't believe what Sunnis say about it but they say according to Quran (like 4:59) you should obey not only Allah and the prophet but also the clergy.
Anyway I myself think Sunnis are right on this issue but it just shows the influence of Mazdakism on Islam, you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdakism One of the principles of Mazdakism was "anti-clericalism".
 
It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself.It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
The same as Mazdakism.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
If you know please mention one thing in Islam which was unrelated to the Persian religions or other pre-Islam religions, we can discuss about it.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 22-Jan-2009 at 17:01
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I want really to know the self created religion of this illiterate man which was just a heterogeneous mixture of Christianity, Judaism and pagan religions such as Mazdakism, Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, could be a divine religion?!!

IMHO, there is no such thing. Just cult leaders, petty ones and larger-than-life ones.

The really good ones are able to do just what you describe: they take bits and pieces and build a brand new model. Like a car manufacturer. They use succesful things from earlier designs, add a few new twists, and come out with a shiny new religion. The petty ones just mimic the great ones in a watered-down sort of way, and are quickly forgotten.

The really great ones are very rare, because it requires a very unique combination of talents. They have to be brilliant, true geniuses, in order to create a very appealing religious system which can mesmerize people, and they have to be extremely charismatic to get it off the ground. Genius and charisma tend to be a rare combination, all the more so when both qualities are taken to such extreme heights. Figures like this were probably like a cross between Einstein and Kennedy (or, perhaps to be more current, Obama and Stephen Hawking).

You get a combination like that and they're going to do something incredible ... really transform the world, shake it to its roots ... even though I don't consider them to have been talking directly to God, I can definately understand how such a person could give that impression. It would very much seem that way if you were to meet someone like that in person. Some of them probably posed as gods, themselves.

Islam had absolutely nothing new to say and there was no way to spread this religion without sword, of course there were some people around Muhammad like some Persian Mazdakists who were really genuine, they had to satisfy this man who was accepted as a prophet among Arabs!
 
[Quran, 33:50] O prophet! We have made lawful to you any believing woman (married or not) who dedicates her soul to the prophet; this only for you, and not for the believers. We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; in order that there should be no difficulty for you. And Allah is oft-forgiving most merciful.
 
 


Saying that Islam was spread by the sword when it took up to 4-5 centuries for a lot of regions to even have a Muslim majority is no other thing than retarded. I guess when you don't understand the whole scope of history, and focus on today rather than a careful study of a 1400 year period you get this idea if the vast majority are Muslim today that means they were so 1400 years ago as well. Again if there were "by the sword," not saying that there were not small and insignificant sporadic ones, but no large scale or centralized movements of any significance occurred. Egypt was majority Christian up until the Crusades, and so was almost most of the rest of the Middle East. Why? Because conversions were not stressed for one, nor sought out in the early period.

I know you have your gripes with Iran's current form of government, and also some disillusion about your own place in there, but that doesn't warrant speaking nonsense for no reason either.

There is always an option of emigration.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:14
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust, remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems. It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself. It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
 
 
Al-Jassas
 
PS: the passage from the Quran above, it has a story behind it, read it carefully and you will understand it.
 


Well I guess if the Prophet had been Iranian he'd be jumping hoops about him ShockedLOLWinkEmbarrassed
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