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Germany's Borders after Versailles

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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Germany's Borders after Versailles
    Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:14
well, I was not the first who said he feels no mercy for killed people or babies.
 
Nobody denies German crimes in Poland and in opposite to Polish people we apologized for our crimes. In the Czech Republic there are e.g. still the Benes-Decrets in use. 2 Million German civilians were murdered AFTER the war, about one million German woman and girls raped and those data is not Nazimaterial. and nobody has ever been able to say a little sorry for it. But the Germans started the war, so everything is ok, isn't it?
 
It is true that the Nazis reported Polish crimes, but as you can read I spoke about some hundred up to 5000 killed people and I said that the Nazi-amount of 50000 is probably wrong. Perhaps you want to tell me that Poland even did not took part in the occupation of Czechia aside with the Nazis. and you didn't attack your neighbours in the 20th and the Jews were your best friends, yes of course. My village, a little town, was burned down a lot of times especially by French, but as well by Spaniards, Kroatians, Swedish and Danish soldiers during the centuries. shall I hate all these nations too for what they did?
 
We Germans know what we have done and we are not proud of it, but we are willing to speak about it, to face all our crimes. I can't see you are willing too.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:27
Originally posted by beorna

well, I was not the first who said he feels no mercy for killed people or babies.
 
Nobody denies German crimes in Poland and in opposite to Polish people we apologized for our crimes. In the Czech Republic there are e.g. still the Benes-Decrets in use. 2 Million German civilians were murdered AFTER the war, about one million German woman and girls raped and those data is not Nazimaterial. and nobody has ever been able to say a little sorry for it. But the Germans started the war, so everything is ok, isn't it?
 
It is true that the Nazis reported Polish crimes, but as you can read I spoke about some hundred up to 5000 killed people and I said that the Nazi-amount of 50000 is probably wrong. Perhaps you want to tell me that Poland even did not took part in the occupation of Czechia aside with the Nazis. and you didn't attack your neighbours in the 20th and the Jews were your best friends, yes of course. My village, a little town, was burned down a lot of times especially by French, but as well by Spaniards, Kroatians, Swedish and Danish soldiers during the centuries. shall I hate all these nations too for what they did?
 
We Germans know what we have done and we are not proud of it, but we are willing to speak about it, to face all our crimes. I can't see you are willing too.
 
Well, i think almost all the nations did in their history things which dont make them proud and Poland is not an exception from this rule. But the truth is that since the 13 century Jews who were persecuated in all the Europe, were coming to settle in Poland because here found more freedom and tollerance than in other european countries. Many of them remained Jews and lived according to their religion and traditions while others were polonised. After Poland regained independence in 1918, many minorities were in bad situation because of some extreme right political parties but it must be stressed that those parties didnt rule in Poland and the Jews were under complete protection of the Polish law and goverment. In fact it wasnt a Jewish or German minority that was in bad situation in Poland but ukrainian.
 
 
Originally posted by beorna

 
2 Million German civilians were murdered AFTER the war, about one million German woman and girls raped
 
Are you sure about those numbers?
 
As for mass rapes i have recently seen the movie "Anonyma" about German women in Berlin after Soviet forces came there. I have also seen on the "planete" channel documentary, in which German historian was saying that German women in Berlin were trying to escape to the part of the city which was controlled by the Polish army, because Polish soldiers didnt rape them. But Polish army was withdrawned from Berlin about 2 weeks after the city was taken.
 
 
 
 
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:37

I think every nation had its pogroms even Poland. This is nothing I blame especially poland for. i am only angry about your statement all these did not happen between 1918 and 39. This is not true. that is was not at all as bad as in Nazi-Germany is clear.

well, a lot of the after-war-crimes I mentioned were done by Russians, but especially Polish and Czech took part. I know that there must have been a lot of hate at their side, but crimes are crimes, there are no good crimes and bad crimes and I would wonder if it is possible in Poland to say to a judge: I am not guilty of murder to his wife, he killed my first, isn't it? and when I speak about Polish crimes against Germans between 1918 and 39, I don't say, German crimes between 39 and 45 were ok, they were not.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:47
Originally posted by beorna

I think every nation had its pogroms even Poland. This is nothing I blame especially poland for. i am only angry about your statement all these did not happen between 1918 and 39. This is not true. that is was not at all as bad as in Nazi-Germany is clear.

well, a lot of the after-war-crimes I mentioned were done by Russians, but especially Polish and Czech took part. I know that there must have been a lot of hate at their side, but crimes are crimes, there are no good crimes and bad crimes and I would wonder if it is possible in Poland to say to a judge: I am not guilty of murder to his wife, he killed my first, isn't it? and when I speak about Polish crimes against Germans between 1918 and 39, I don't say, German crimes between 39 and 45 were ok, they were not.
 
I have found such information:
 
"Between 1935 and 1937 seventy-nine Jews were killed and 500 injured in anti-Jewish incidents, there were also victims among the attackers."
 
 
Do you have any information about alleged crimes of Poles against German minority in period between 1918-1939?
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 00:54
it is very difficult to get truthful informations, especially in English. I could send you a hundreds of links from right-winged websites, but I am not sure we should trust them. i am looking for informations, perhaps you can wait until xmas is over.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 01:48
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  Quote Futurist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2016 at 23:14
The Soviet Union/Russia never apologized for the rapes of all of these German women and girls by Red Army soldiers? :(
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  Quote Futurist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2016 at 23:20
Originally posted by Temujin

but it's pretty similar to the old medieval border between Poland and Germany before the east was Germanized.
Yes; correct! :

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  Quote Futurist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2016 at 23:24
Originally posted by mig el pig

Greetings everyone,
I'm looking for some assistance with a project I'm working on.

Anyone know how the borders were determined after Versailles In Eastren Europe esp.  Poland and  Germany.

A major help would be if anyone know which provinces or goverment districts they were based on.

With some exceptions, Germany's post-World War I borders were drawn either based on ethnic lines or based on plebiscite results:


Also, based on the map here, it appears that sometimes (such as in the Saar(land)), Germany's new borders weren't based on pre-existing administrative borders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire#/media/File:Karte_Deutsches_Reich,_Verwaltungsgliederung_1900-01-01.png
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2016 at 23:43
Originally posted by Futurist

The Soviet Union/Russia never apologized for the rapes of all of these German women and girls by Red Army soldiers? :(


I hope your being sarcastic. Russia has never been very apologetic for anything their armies did.
Considering what was done to them, their attitude isn't surprising.


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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2016 at 00:22
Yeap it was a rampage time when Soviets entered Germany!Eye for eye story...
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  Quote Futurist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2016 at 02:36
Originally posted by beorna

After WWII Germany lost East Prussia, Danzig, the most of Silesia, parts of Brandenburg and parts of Pommerania. Since that time the border was the Oder-Neiße-line. Only at the Oder estuary Germany lost land west of Oder with the economical important Stettin and the Oder Island Wollin and parts of Usedom Isle. So the annexions weren't based on previous borders allthough East Prussia totally and Silesia in the greatest part were annected.
In addition to all of this, Germany also lost a hill to the Netherlands after the end of World War II:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duivelsberg
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  Quote Futurist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2016 at 02:37
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Futurist

The Soviet Union/Russia never apologized for the rapes of all of these German women and girls by Red Army soldiers? :(


I hope your being sarcastic. Russia has never been very apologetic for anything their armies did.
Considering what was done to them, their attitude isn't surprising.


The raped German women were (at least generally) completely innocent in regards to Nazi war crimes and atrocities, though.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2016 at 19:41
Originally posted by Futurist

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Futurist

The Soviet Union/Russia never apologized for the rapes of all of these German women and girls by Red Army soldiers? :(


I hope your being sarcastic. Russia has never been very apologetic for anything their armies did.
Considering what was done to them, their attitude isn't surprising.


The raped German women were (at least generally) completely innocent in regards to Nazi war crimes and atrocities, though.

In France, if you were to ask which of your families supported the Nazis most would deny it. However, about seventy-five percent did. What do you expect differently from the Germans?
Now I'm generally a firm believer that you can't simply pair off crimes to absolve one party or other as it doesn't really work that way. But we shouldn't forget that anger is a very powerful numbing agent to the senses and the Soviets certainly had a lot to be angry about. The loss of around 20,000,000 people is a lot of pent-up emotions.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2016 at 22:27
"Only the newborn were innocent". A quote from the Soviet chief prosecutor. Can't recall his name, probably couldn't spell it anyway. That attitude existed with more folks than just him.



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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2016 at 03:30
Originally posted by red clay

"Only the newborn were innocent". A quote from the Soviet chief prosecutor. Can't recall his name, probably couldn't spell it anyway. That attitude existed with more folks than just him.






Really?

 The Stalinist regime applied this value to all in its thrall, & it is a degenerate/despicable policy.

I understand that the hapless bastard offspring of women via occupation forces were also persecuted,
& this extends up to modern times, even in Europe.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2016 at 10:07
Originally posted by red clay

"Only the newborn were innocent". A quote from the Soviet chief prosecutor. Can't recall his name, probably couldn't spell it anyway. That attitude existed with more folks than just him.


most likely my countryman and chief prosecutor of USSR Andrey Yanuarevich Vyshinsky:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vyshinsky
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2016 at 10:20
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

But we shouldn't forget that anger is a very powerful numbing agent to the senses and the Soviets certainly had a lot to be angry about. The loss of around 20,000,000 people is a lot of pent-up emotions.


But how many of those 20.000.000 were killed by the Soviets themselves?

It is also very hard to say how many Poles died in WW2 from the hands of Soviets, because communist historians just combined the numbers of victims of soviets and of Germans and blamed Germans for all of them.

Take for example this guy, it was pre-war Polish actor, one of the most popular actors in Poland. He was murdered by Soviets but after WW2 the Soviets blamed Germans for killing him. Soviets claimed that he was shot on the street when Germans occupied Lviv/Lwów/Lemberg, but really he died from cold and hunger in the camp in far north Archenagielsk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8FjVhezOCA





Edited by Mosquito - 27-Sep-2016 at 10:22
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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