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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of Mughal-Pathans
    Posted: 29-May-2009 at 02:25
About Mughal-Pathans:
 
Mughol-zai is a subtribe of GilZai or Tokhi tribe:
Tokhi (Ghilzai) A Ghalji (Ghilzai) tribe found throughout southern and western Afghanistan, although most heavily concentrated in Zabul and Uruzgan. Two main sub-tribes are the Muhammadzai (the largest) and Shamulzai (Shimalzai); other divisions include the Jalazai, Babakrzai, Miranzai, Jaffri, Pirozai (Pir Khel), and Kishaini.
 
Ghilzai pathans have been originated from Turkey.
 
(It may be possible that the people who are claiming themselves as Mughal-Pathans are actually Mughol-Zai from Ghilzai tribe)
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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 06:21
Thanks a lot, where the word Zai started.  I am interested in Mahmand Tribe that is based in and around Peshawar, me too, I belong to the same tribe though now I am in India Delhi.
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 23:24
I recently had a intresting conversation with my uncle and the conversation went like this:

He told me my Great Grandfather, who was from Jullandar, was Pashto speaking, but he claimed it wasn't his mother tongue, but a language he picked up whilst he was in the area of Swat, Peshawar due to Army duties there. There is also no clue as to where his parents originated from; though, the name of my Great Grandfather and his brothers: Abdullah Khan, Maula Baksh and Khadhar Khan; aswell as their physical descriptions, to me, sound as if they were foreign settlers. My Uncle inisisted that they were Mughal Chaghattai, whereas my father recalled my uncle saying they were Mughal-Pathan or Mughal-Chaghattai-Pathan. I don't understand why i keep hearing different narrations. Anyway, i expressed my doubts, but i learnt these doubts existed for my Uncle, who himself was not completely sure about our history. The problem is my ancestoral history only goes back 1 generation, so its something we are bound to inherit.
 
Some things i would like to clarify are ...

1) Is it true that during the time of the British Raj, if you were found to be Mughal, you would be killed or deprived in some way in society, which meant you had to hide your original identity or tribe ???
2) How likely could the language Pashto been picked up while serving the Army?
3) How possible was it for people to change their Tribe ?
4) Did people generally adopt the Surname "Khan" as their second names ?

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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:47
Yes, you are right yas245, here is no proper record of the tribes moment. Only the record is what one told his sons and those sons keep on telling others.  It is almost true that "Khan" is also used as title. In North India, near Delhi, there is an area called "Mewat", it starts from Delhi and went upto 'Rajasthan', these people are called Mewati, they are converted from Hindu Rajput, they all use with their names khan though they are not Pathan, it is because some of their lelders were given the title khan by Mughals kings.
 
But in North India, the real pathan too, use urdu as their language, some of them use pathan Suit to wear like in Afghanistan, they still have  many traditions the same. One, "Mr. Salman Khursheed" is the minister in the new government now, he is Pathan from 'Azam Garh', UP. I am interested about knowing of "Mehmand" tribe, when they came to Delhi.
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 13:21
Brother, I hear what your saying. I really wanted to know the validity of some information. Absolutely, like you said there is no proper record of such things and it is just something thats passed on through Generations (Mine being only 1 Generation).

Regarding your Tribe
, i think it would be a good idea to start a new thread since the topic of this particular thread is Mughal-Pathan. Here people are looking for their origin from two distinct identities. Whereas in your case, you have your tribe name and looking for information on it. As much as i like to help, i honestly do not know anything about that tribe. However, after my quick search here's what i can offer you :

There is a slight spelling varriation. it is either "Mehmand" or "Mohmand", i guess they are the same. Some information can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohmands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohmand_Agency

Regarding when they came to Delhi is similar to the question i posed about the possible migration of my ancestors into Jullandhar. I took it as an exceptional case of migration, and not as a collective one. My theory was that people travelled for trade into places where they were most likely to find it and perhaps be better off (if they had the money offcourse).  Then I learnt about the Pashtun colonies, now these were collective migrations during the British Raj (earlier in this thread); the reason for these migrations were perhaps because of the inital idea i had of trade. Delhi or the other indian places were either trade centers, place of development and/or popularity. Now after the recent conversation with my Uncle (below), i have raised questions regarding this migration. If my ancestors were Pashtun migrants or if they weren't, then questions 2 and 3 would be the crux in deciding that:

Originally posted by yas245

He told me my Great Grandfather, who was from Jullandar, was Pashto speaking, but he claimed it wasn't his mother tongue, but a language he picked up whilst he was in the area of Swat, Peshawar due to Army duties there. There is also no clue as to where his parents originated from; though, the name of my Great Grandfather and his brothers: Abdullah Khan, Maula Baksh and Khadhar Khan; aswell as their physical descriptions, to me, sound as if they were foreign settlers. My Uncle inisisted that they were Mughal Chaghattai, whereas my father recalled my uncle saying they were Mughal-Pathan or Mughal-Chaghattai-Pathan. I don't understand why i keep hearing different narrations. Anyway, i expressed my doubts, but i learnt these doubts existed for my Uncle, who himself was not completely sure about our history. The problem is my ancestoral history only goes back 1 generation, so its something we are bound to inherit.

Some Questions:
1) Is it true that during the time of the British Raj, if you were found to be Mughal, you would be killed or deprived in some way in society, which meant you had to hide your original identity or tribe ???
2) How likely could the language Pashto been picked up while serving the Army?
3) How possible was it for people to change their Tribe ?
4) Did people generally adopt the Surname "Khan" as their second names ?


My uncle was told by my Grandfather, who himself knew little about his history, but that is not to say he knew anything at all. Therfore, these questions for me, i hope, will help me determine whether they were actually Pashtuns or Mughals or maybe decendants of both.

I hope that helped.

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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 07:37
Good information, thanks. I believe, Pathans first migrated at the time of Mohammad Gauri, first Muslim king coming to present India. Though there have been migration before too but even there was not Islam in present Afghanistan at that time. It means, pathan migrated with other tribes names ( may be any name from presnet North Indian casts system). Then during 'Lodhis' dynasty period as they were pathans themselves later, during Mughal period and 'Sher Shah Suri''s' time. the biggest gathering was in Roheil Khand area of UP, comprising many districts from 'Moradabad' to 'Shahjahan pur'. thanks.
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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 03:31

For Indian Pathan:

Dear, I have a friend who is Mohmand but this time, he cannot speak pashto, he is hindkowan. He lives in Pekhawar

For Yas245:

Brother why you do not go towards Genographics test? It will make you clearified about your actual tribe / origin and language ?
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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 03:36
Originally posted by mughalpathan

About Mughal-Pathans:
 
Mughol-zai is a subtribe of GilZai or Tokhi tribe:
Tokhi (Ghilzai) A Ghalji (Ghilzai) tribe found throughout southern and western Afghanistan, although most heavily concentrated in Zabul and Uruzgan. Two main sub-tribes are the Muhammadzai (the largest) and Shamulzai (Shimalzai); other divisions include the Jalazai, Babakrzai, Miranzai, Jaffri, Pirozai (Pir Khel), and Kishaini.
 
Ghilzai pathans have been originated from Turkey.
 
(It may be possible that the people who are claiming themselves as Mughal-Pathans are actually Mughol-Zai from Ghilzai tribe)
 
Yesterday, I met a pasthun from Bannu; I just asked about his tribe. He was Yousaf-Zai with sub-tribe Mughal-Khel. I was suprized. It forced me to think deeply. It may be possible that Mughal-Zai / Mughal-Khel etc when came and started living in Punjab, they had been started to be called as Mughal-Pathans.
But I am not sure, as I have only this suspecion without reference.
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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 06:07
Originally posted by mughalpathan

For Indian Pathan:

Dear, I have a friend who is Mohmand but this time, he cannot speak pashto, he is hindkowan. He lives in Pekhawar

For Yas245:

Brother why you do not go towards Genographics test? It will make you clearified about your actual tribe / origin and language ?
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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 06:08
Thank you very much, yas and Mughal Pathan, very informative. Please keep it up.
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2009 at 14:15
Where are you guys ???
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  Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2009 at 23:13
Originally posted by yas245

Where are you guys ???
 
How are you Yas245 and Mughal Pathans, though I am in India not but I am sorry for the disturbances in the Pathans area in Pakistan as I hear the news.  Hope the matters will be solved soon and there would be peace again.  Allaah (SWT) help muslim in all the ways, Ameen. Please pray you all and send me the latest information if you have, thanks.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2009 at 01:03
Originally posted by Indian Pathan

Anyone has specific detail of Mahmand tribe of Pathans, coming to the India (present day), I mean how and in which period they came. Thanks.
It has not been the practice of a single period of time for migration of Afghans to India. Afghan plateau is a rough region with scanty sources so most Afghans did transferred to India. The King Taimur while attacking Delhi says that he was astonished to see a lot of Afghans in the Indian Army siding with the Non-Muslims against him. However, mostly in the later days Afghans migrated to India in large numbers in the time of Sher Shah Suri who had called for them to inhabit India. In the second battle of Panipat in 1556 A.D there were mostly Afghans on the side of Himun Baqal against Akbar the Great.
The main thing there is that one has to be true and loyal to the land where one decides to live.
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  Quote davinci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2011 at 04:42
most north indians are an indegenous mix of migrants from the frontier regions and across. its either the migrants having mixed for only a few generations with the locals  or vice -versa.the former have set up castes to limit their mixing with the local population and for other socio-economic reasons. the muslim settlers could be benchmarked by their duration of stay here.the earlier they arrived mored are the chances of generations of intermixing.usually group migrations have still prevented intermixing coz of marriages within the group,ther are only rare cases of rebellious individuals who marry a local , such families are avoided as prospective in-laws.so dats quite afew pashtun communties in india have retaineds their distinct identities, culturally thet are a homogenised  muslim society.so any self proclaimed pure afghans do not just brush aside indian pathan communities as no more.(coz a lot of frontier pashuns could be descendants of ranjit singhs army ;)
let there be light
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  Quote ghaznevite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2014 at 20:02
Salam to all 

There is no such thing exists like "Mughal Pathan", it is either Mughal OR Pathan, having blood lines  from their fatherhood. Mughals were the most wiser of all at all times,  weather it was to come to their battle craft, military leadership as they very very successfully managed all the other nations living in Afghanistan i.e Pathans uzbeks tajiks to fight for them under their flag and rulership or it comes to their architectural sense as creation of engineering masterpieces or their emotional attachments with their queens, as far as thei management and rulership is concerned they euled over for 1000 years in Indian sub continent. they competed for and as true breed made to rule, A true muslim guiding becon for other nations living in Afghanistan as their army. There might be pathan generals fighting for the mughal armies but those who make them fought in the battle field were always Mughal Kamandaars, who were actually responsible for the fate of war they were fighting. Durranies are considered to be the royals of Pathans but they were also use to be part and parcels of Mughal armies. 


What is "1857 war of independence", it was never a war of independence as reported by indian historians it was actually war to reinstate and strengthen the ruler ship of last Mughal emperor King Bahadur shah zafar but  when he lost the war, the Britishers after killing the royal princes with the help of hindus tried to find out those cousines of the  who were reported gathering in Afghanistan to fight back with the help of mughals living in India, As per the reports the advance parties of the kings lashkar (The flank protectors) has reached to Multan. Being eminent threat to Britishers, they started killing the notable mughal kamandaars in all the area under their rule and that was the  reason made the most of the notables to underground. Multan and its suburbs i.e velleys of Koh e Suleman  were considered to be the best suited area at that time to be their hide out since as it was most easily accessible to Afghanistan on military routes so the left over Mughal kamandaars had decided to make themselves underground till the time to retaliate against their defeat. for the purpose they made special walls in their buildings to hide their battle arsenal and develop a spy network against the british govt. Unfortunately as the Britishers moved the king to Rangoon where he died and already  killed the actual crown princes therefore the  kings death also faded the struggle of Mughals to fight back for their lost glory.
            
Pathans are no doubt born fighters and they conquered Indian sub continent for 17 times under the leader ship of Mehmood Ghaznavi belonging to Durrani tribe where as Babar having Pathsn in his army conquered india once and his decedents remained the rulers.  Having said that I believe in the thing that Where mughal blood matches the Pathans, there comes the most lethel combination of warrior breed who is not only die hard fighter but also a always winning military strategist make his enemy bleed with a thousand cuts.


I am decedent of a  Mughal kamadaar of that time  his father  was leading an army from Afganistan. I still finding his arsnels including armours, head gears , daggers, swords and shields hidden inside the walls of haveli in our native village where our grand grand father used to live a a "loyal to King". By the way my grand grand mother and my grand mother both were from durrani tribe.



Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 09-Oct-2014 at 21:02
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 15:21
This all very interesting, however, without refs. and sources all this is just opinion and family oral history.
I'm not disputing any of this, but pointing out a problem with Indian history discussions.  sourcing becomes circular, and darn rare.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote k_s_khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2015 at 23:07
Hi Indian Pathan,

Do you have any links to Hoshiarpur. My maternal side is Mehmund and they belong to there. There shajra goes up to Sheikh Noor Jamal whose tomb is still there.

K Khan
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  Quote Arshad Mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2015 at 14:33
AOA Dear
Father of grand father was also named as Jumma khan and he also migrated from kabul. 
I think we might have family links, i live in lahore. 
Will you please contact on this number: 0333-2118305
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  Quote Shami Mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2016 at 03:45
Dear All;

I also heard this sentence "Mughal Phathan", i have no reference to proof this right or wrong. But searching Mughal history I found answer for this phrase. At very early "Babar The Great" established himself in Kabul and then pushed steadily southward into India from Afghanistan through the Khyber pass. As in Afghanistan phasto language was commonly used, so they learned this. Latter many other Mughal Emperor's do poetry in pashtoo, so only this language was indulge to Mughal roots.

So it's fact every english speaking is not a Britain or every Punjabi speaking is not Punjabi , so every phasto speaking is not phathan. These are just languages that people learned to survive in day life routine or just sake of there interest or needs.
So as questioned by "Mughalphathan" his forefathers were migrated from Afghanistan so for surviving in those conditions they learns phasto there. When they shift to Multan or Pakistan they learnt Urdu, they don't become Punjabi Mughal's.

Mughal are just Mughal, irrespective what language they speaks. So mughal phathan term is wrong my dear.

And advance apology for those who get weird and became angry on my reply.

Mughal The Warriors
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  Quote Tyeba Erphan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2016 at 01:31
Heyyy..!! m also a Mughal Pathan...!!! n m very curious since my childhood about the origin of my caste that it is Mugha nl Pathan too ...!!!!  Confused               
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