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History of Mughal-Pathans

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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of Mughal-Pathans
    Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 11:35
Hello Everybody
I am new at this forum
I am doing research on Mugha-Pathans. My fore-fathers migrated from Afghanistan to Multan, they were Pashto speaking. They told their tribe as Mughal-Pathan.
But now I want to know complete history of Mughal-Pathans. From google, i could not get sufficient information.
Can anyone help me in this regard????
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 15:31
Moved to Q&A Smile
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 16:13
Dear I really don't know and haven't ever heared of a tribe by the name of Mughal Pathan.
Mostly the term Pathan is used for pashtuns in (India and Pakistan) and Mughals are related to todays Mongolia, there are alot of mughals still living in Afghanistan, specially in the western areas such as Herat province where they are under "Temori" last name (adopted from Temor Lane).
Regarding the migrations of pashtuns from Afghanistan to the Punjab provice of today's Pakistan is also a common and ancient act, where even Ahmad Shah Abdali's father had migrated to Multan for bussiness purpose and there Abdali was born.
 
But still combining both ethnics togather would be only in a case where either a pashtun man marry a mughal woman or vise versa, and their children relate themselves to both ethnic, other than this, I haven't heard about the term neither in Afghanistan nor in Pakistan.


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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 16:53
Originally posted by Gharanai

Dear I really don't know and haven't ever heared of a tribe by the name of Mughal Pathan.
Mostly the term Pathan is used for pashtuns in (India and Pakistan) and Mughals are related to todays Mongolia, there are alot of mughals still living in Afghanistan, specially in the western areas such as Herat province where they are under "Temori" last name (adopted from Temor Lane).
Regarding the migrations of pashtuns from Afghanistan to the Punjab provice of today's Pakistan is also a common and ancient act, where even Ahmad Shah Abdali's father had migrated to Multan for bussiness purpose and there Abdali was born.
 
But still combining both ethnics togather would be only in a case where either a pashtun man marry a mughal woman or vise versa, and their children relate themselves to both ethnic, other than this, I haven't heard about the term neither in Afghanistan nor in Pakistan.
 
Manana Gharanai for your reply
Father of my grand-father....named Muhammad Juma Khan.....migrated from Kabul towards Multan. He told his tribe as Mughal-Pathan.
Not only my family, but i have met 2 other Mughal-Pathan families at Multan, but they also donot know about their origin and history. Some people say that we are originated from Tareen tribe. And some say that we are from Kalar tribe. I am researching upon this topic. From google, i could find some references of this book: -

Afghanistan

 By C. H. Bleaney, María Ángeles Gallego, Willem Vogelsang page 69. At this page the below given statement is present: -

Anew and rare type of Mughal-Pathan found near Calcutta. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal: Letters, ser. iii, 4 (1938) pp.283-284

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  Quote Copperknickers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 23:04
Originally posted by mughalpathan

 I am researching upon this topic. From google, i could find some references of this book: -

Afghanistan

 By C. H. Bleaney, María Ángeles Gallego, Willem Vogelsang page 69. At this page the below given statement is present: -

Anew and rare type of Mughal-Pathan found near Calcutta. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal: Letters, ser. iii, 4 (1938) pp.283-284



That reference is to do with an Indian game referred to as 'Mughal-Pathan' because it was invented in the Mughal-Pathan wars. I can find references to the term used a a surname and tribal group a lot, but i cannot find how it came about.

EDIT: Here is something:

"[...]caste-like categories in terms of inter-dining and inter-marriage between
their functional groups and other appelations, like Mughal-Pathan, Sheikh,..."




Edited by Copperknickers - 10-Jan-2009 at 23:09
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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 11:41
Originally posted by Copperknickers

Originally posted by mughalpathan

 I am researching upon this topic. From google, i could find some references of this book: -

Afghanistan

 By C. H. Bleaney, María Ángeles Gallego, Willem Vogelsang page 69. At this page the below given statement is present: -

Anew and rare type of Mughal-Pathan found near Calcutta. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal: Letters, ser. iii, 4 (1938) pp.283-284



That reference is to do with an Indian game referred to as 'Mughal-Pathan' because it was invented in the Mughal-Pathan wars. I can find references to the term used a a surname and tribal group a lot, but i cannot find how it came about.

EDIT: Here is something:

"[...]caste-like categories in terms of inter-dining and inter-marriage between
their functional groups and other appelations, like Mughal-Pathan, Sheikh,..."


 
Dear Sir Copperknickers
So that I am here at the forum to know extact idea that what is our actual tribe???? As we were told it Mughal-Pathan
I need help of you all in this context
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 20:09
Brother , Suprsingly I'm in the same boat as you. I was told i was 'Mughal Chaghtai Pathan' , i made a thread a little while ago, requesting some knowledge about this. Maybe you can have a look at it and see if you find anything intreseting. In my thread, i was told i can't be both Mughal and Pathan, but Sarmat came up with two possibilities of my origin, but nothing is for certain.
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  Quote mughalpathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 02:07
Originally posted by yas245

Brother , Suprsingly I'm in the same boat as you. I was told i was 'Mughal Chaghtai Pathan' , i made a thread a little while ago, requesting some knowledge about this. Maybe you can have a look at it and see if you find anything intreseting. In my thread, i was told i can't be both Mughal and Pathan, but Sarmat came up with two possibilities of my origin, but nothing is for certain.
 
Thanks for replying here. I also read your post and got more confused
Still I am searching at google
At many marriage websites.....I have founf many names who claiming Mighal-Pathans. I have ringed all those who showed their Cell Number but still no positive response could be get. But I am not discouraged. I ll find...!
Mughal-Chughtai-Pathan is also confusing me!
I can only pray for u. May you find your exact relation with history!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by mughalpathan

Hello Everybody
I am new at this forum
I am doing research on Mugha-Pathans. My fore-fathers migrated from Afghanistan to Multan, they were Pashto speaking. They told their tribe as Mughal-Pathan.
But now I want to know complete history of Mughal-Pathans. From google, i could not get sufficient information.
Can anyone help me in this regard????
If your forefathers were Pushto speaking then they have not been from Kabul proper and might have been some area near to Kabul and you are Afghan or Pat'han and if Persian speaking then they might have been original Kabulites who are neither Mughal nor Pat'han but Kabulees which are by race old Persians like that of many areas of Persian speaking people in Afghanistan. There are also Persian speaking Turks and Mughals in Afghanistan and you may make your character to seek your clan. If you are round faced and of middle size and walk smoothly though you do not keep your word and change your view and loyalty then you are a Mughal. If you are somewhat taller in stature and have your upper body heavier than legs and step forward stamping like lifting your foot and putting down and do not make much honour to your elders and alter your words then you are a Pathan or Afghan. If you see your family used to manners and discipline then you are a native of Kabul or Persian speaker. You may call that a Tajik or Persian speaking Kabuli.
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:04
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:03
Pathan is the name of a race and not a geography. You will be a pathan if you are from pathan parents, and if not you may link with your name your nationality. Pathans are divided into tribes and are known of that. One if starts living in a Pushtun or any area with any other race creates a new branch of those people by their new converted clan. For example Indian pathans who are there in a large number and are the offsprings of Pushtuns but they speak Hindi and will be considered by any means as Indians. Among Muslims the famous Sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi who was a Turk from Balkh migrated to Asia minor which is called Rum or former Eastern Rome so the poet is named Rumi or Roman in English. Small sections of population just get merged into the local population lest all the locals be not displaced. Similarly living in Pushtun area will get one Pushtunised with time.
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 01:15
Originally posted by Cheeta

If your forefathers were Pushto speaking then they have not been from Kabul proper and might have been some area near to Kabul and you are Afghan or Pat'han and if Persian speaking then they might have been original Kabulites who are neither Mughal nor Pat'han but Kabulees which are by race old Persians like that of many areas of Persian speaking people in Afghanistan. There are also Persian speaking Turks and Mughals in Afghanistan and you may make your character to seek your clan. If you are round faced and of middle size and walk smoothly though you do not keep your word and change your view and loyalty then you are a Mughal. If you are somewhat taller in stature and have your upper body heavier than legs and step forward stamping like lifting your foot and putting down and do not make much honour to your elders and alter your words then you are a Pathan or Afghan. If you see your family used to manners and discipline then you are a native of Kabul or Persian speaker. You may call that a Tajik or Persian speaking Kabuli.
 
Are you really being serious? thats got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard LOL  is this a true metaphor or something youve observed yourself? or perhaps its a village saying? as its the first time I've heard that.  From a phenotypic expression point of view,  Pashtuns tend to be more proportionate and of medium stock while Panjabi's tend to be taller with predominant upper torso's(Again possibly a stereotype but interestingly also a noted British observation of the late 19th century when they did studies on various tribes living in Pakistan).  These are generalizations and are not always true and as with most studies, are subject to various biasis) 
 
 
Originally posted by yas245


Agreed about the statementConfused
 
Some insight about Pashtuns/Pukhtuns/Afghans(native)  Smile:
First we need to get the terminology correct.  The correct/accurate term is ''Pashtun or Pukhtun'' depending on the dialect of Pashto spoken by the Pashtun.  Pathan has a dual meaning, it is used by South Asian speakers who perhaps cannot pronounce the ''kh'' or ''sh'' of Pukhto/Pushto and hence call them Pathans, or additionally a local misnomer in South asia similar to how all Persian refugee Zorastrians of the 16century came to be known as Parsi's due to their maternal tongue of Farsi (persian).  By Pashtuns/Pukhtuns themselves, Pathan tend to refer to non-pashto speaking peoples of obviously different genetic make-up, of decidedly non-Pashtun blood lines who often coincidently use the surname khan or a family name of notable Muslims and are considered as ''fake claimants'', mostly converts to Islam who have adopted the title for social and status reasons;(as a result of the permeating culture of social castes and divisions prevailant in South Asia).  Many of these claimants where infact converts to Islam encoraged by various foreign rulers(Turks-from which the original surname Khan is believed to have originated from, Mystic-Sufis, Pashtun/Afghan rulers and other Islamic empires that ruled at different times in South Asia)
 
Here are the basics of who IS Pashtun:
 
1) Has to have their current village from Afghanistan or Pakistan.
2) Must follow Pashtunwali (Pre-Islamic Pashtun code of conduct)
3) Must validly fall, in a direct immediate line, on the well documented Pashtun Family tree leading to Qais Rashid(forefather of all Pashtuns/Afghans) and his sons(who have a documented tradition of having settled Afghanistan, Pakistan and the regions of Multan, Swat and Lahore.
4) Must speak Pashto or Pukhto (+ sub dialects)
5) Must have majority Genetic markers specific and unique to Pashtuns.
6) Can legitimately partake/have representation in Pashtun/pukhtun tribal Jirga(s) if the situation arises.
 
It needs to clarified that Pashtuns/Pukhtuns are not found in india, this can be proven genetically, linguistically, culturally and phenotypically; more importantly, modern living Pashtun tribes dont even recognize them.  During the British Raj, there where some Pashtun colonies (eg. Rohilkhand, Jullundhar etc...) but they migrated en masse (en bloc) to Pakistan and Afghanistan back into their parent tribes who accepted them; a smaller minority went via Burma to the 2 aforementioned countries.  All Pashtuns/Pukhtuns can directly trace their lineage along a family tree to one of the tribes inhabiting the Pashtun/Pukhtun regions of Afghanistan(Southern/Eastern) and Pakistan(Western/Southwestern/Central).  If that family is living in the USA, UK or Dubai, it does not change the fact that their immediate ancestral village and roots, non-severed, are still from the Pashtun Belts of those two countries, otherwise they are not considered Pashtuns. 
 
In the late 19th Century, Pashtun tribes did something interesting to safeguard attempts to undermine their ethnicity which was under cultural onslaught by the colonialist who had become experts at breaking down, reducing traditional cultural links and dividing various peoples they encountered(eg. Lawrence of Arabia is a well known British intelligence officer, who spoke and acted like an Arab and persuaged Arab Bedouin tribes to turn on the Ottoman Turks and in essence founded modern Arab nationalism.  In the case of South Asia, Rudyard Kipling can be considered his counterpart), The Pashtuns unanimously adopted a univeral resolution to make the Pashto/Pukhto language an important marker of identification for themselves, (you have to remember that this was occuring at a period when British colonialists where breaking down ancient administrative languages and promoting Urdu in the place of Persian to minimize the influence of Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia(Tajikistan) on the western regions(i.e. Pakistan) which they subsequently added to their their vast South Asian Empire.  Pashtun tradition and laws have several innate characteristics that allows for clear rules as to who is a real Pashtun; which in recent years has been strenghtened with advances in human genetic markers.
 
Another example is Australia, where many Pashtuns went to chart out the vast expanse of the dessert after the British sent them there.  Most have intermarried over successive generations into the Aboriginal/Australian gene pool as they werent allowed to bring their wifes/families.  If you ever have the chance to meet a modern day ''Ghans'' , you would immediately recognize that they cannt be considered Pashtun and have little genetic markers left to indicate that they are Pashtuns; after successive generations.  Culturally distinct, they dont look Pashtun, follow Pashtunwali, dont speak Pashto or retain any trace of their Pashtun bloodline and wouldnt be able to take part in a pashtun jirga.
 
Furthermore, another case in point, there are many ''Pathan'' claimants in the city of Karachi in Pakistan who are still termed Mohajir-urdu, they neither look Pashtun, speak Pashto, act and or follow Pashtunwali, and despite the fact that they have lived alongside an estimate 3-4 million real Pashtuns(Karachi is the largest urban concentration of Pashtuns in the world), are still not accepted nor treated as Pashtuns despite having lived there for some 60+ years.  Infact, they themselves still identify themselves as Mohajir-Pakistani-Urdu Speakers
 
With the advent of DNA/Genetic testing and the aforementioned points, it has become quite easy to delineate Ethnic groups and seperate fact from fiction.  We can thank modern science, the maintance of records, traditions and historical research, Anthropology, Ethnography and most of all Genetic testing for this. I hope that was helpful to your understand of Pashtuns/Pukhtuns Smile


Edited by MarcoPolo - 25-Jan-2009 at 20:12
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 18:55
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

 
Are you really being serious? thats got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard LOL  is this a true metaphor or something youve observed yourself? or perhaps its a village saying? as its the first time I've heard that.  From a phenotypic expression point of view,  Pashtuns tend to be more proportionate and of medium stock while Panjabi's tend to be taller with predominant upper torso's(Again possibly a stereotype but interestingly also a noted British observation of the late 19th century when they did studies on various tribes living in Pakistan).  These are generalizations and are not always true and as with most studies, are subject to various biasis) 
 
 
Ofcourse Sir, I am serious. It is my own observation and almost true that everyone can examine. You have mentioned about the Punjabis by the English to be taller. No doubt Punjabis are taller being the mixed population of Rajputs and Chhatrees i-e Gakkhar's, Gujars, Khokhars etc. The body shape of Punjabi and Pathan differs to each other. The upper body of Punjabis is shorter than legs. Being having longer legs their daily routine differs than that of other races. Punjabis do use the upper end better than the lower, they can play Kabaddi well but not football as a game.


Edited by Cheeta - 24-Jan-2009 at 18:59
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 13:16
Great info.

Can you tell me a little more about the Collonies in Jullundhar ?
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  Quote hmmm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 02:42
A good place to start is to read what the people in olden times were writing themselves about each other.  This way you may learn more.  It seems that Mughal writing are quite preserved. Pathan artifacts or writings do not exist, as far as I know.  If you read early Mughal writings then you will find them mention people living in what is now known as FATA in North-West Provinces.  A lot of battles are also described and Mughals held a very dim view of these people, whom we can call as Pathans now.
So, at that time, they were clearly two different group of people and not one as Mughal-Pathan.  Later, Pathans may have entered the service of Mughals and may even have relations with them.  It should also be remembered that Pathans were a constant nuisance for Mughals and lot of time was spent quashing them.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 16:39
Principal Basties Kots Gates

Basti Danishmandan, originally Ibrahimpur, founded by Ansari Sheikhs from Kani Kuram in A.D.1606

Basti Sheikh Darvesh, popularly called Basti Sheikh, originally Surajabad, founded by Sheikh Darvesh and Ansari Sheikh from Kani Kuram in A.D.1614

Basti Guzan, founded in the reign of Shah Jahan by Baraki Pathans of the Ghuz section, discipline of Sheikh Darvesh. They first settled in Jalandhar, then in Basti Sheikh. Subsequently, they purchase lands from Lodhi Afghans, Saiyads and Sheikhs, and built a bazar of their own

Basti Bawa Khel, originally called Babapur, was founded in A.D. 1620-21 by Baraki Pathans of the Baba Khel section

Basti Pirdad is an offshoot of Basti Baba Khel

Basti Shah Kuli and Basti Shah Ibrahim are also Baraki settlements of Shah Jahan's reign

Basti Mithu Sahib appears to have been founded a little later than Basti Sheikh Darvesh by Mian Mithu Sahib, a Khalil Mattezai Pathan from the neighbourhood of Peshawar

Basti Nau,adjoining Basti Shah Kulli, was founded after the Sikh conquest of the region in 1759

Kot Kishan Chand,

Kot Lakhpat Rai, earlier known as Kot Daulat Khan,

Kot Sadat Khan,

Kot Achhi,

Kot Chimbian,

Kot Pakshian,

Kot Bahadur Khan,

Kot Mohammad Amin now known as Shivraj Garh,

Kot Sadiq,

Kot Badal Khan,

Kot Fazal Karim

Kot Asman Khan

Mai Hiran Gate,

Balmiki Gate,

Neela Mahal Gate,

Jaura Gate,

Khingran Gate,

Saidan Gate,

Phagwara Gate,

Sheetla Gate,

Khodian Gate,

Dehalvi Gate,

Shah Kuli Gate,

Lahore Gate



Edited by Cheeta - 26-Jan-2009 at 16:42
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 16:40
Principal Basties Kots Gates

Basti Danishmandan, originally Ibrahimpur, founded by Ansari Sheikhs from Kani Kuram in A.D.1606

Basti Sheikh Darvesh, popularly called Basti Sheikh, originally Surajabad, founded by Sheikh Darvesh and Ansari Sheikh from Kani Kuram in A.D.1614

Basti Guzan, founded in the reign of Shah Jahan by Baraki Pathans of the Ghuz section, discipline of Sheikh Darvesh. They first settled in Jalandhar, then in Basti Sheikh. Subsequently, they purchase lands from Lodhi Afghans, Saiyads and Sheikhs, and built a bazar of their own

Basti Bawa Khel, originally called Babapur, was founded in A.D. 1620-21 by Baraki Pathans of the Baba Khel section

Basti Pirdad is an offshoot of Basti Baba Khel

Basti Shah Kuli and Basti Shah Ibrahim are also Baraki settlements of Shah Jahan's reign

Basti Mithu Sahib appears to have been founded a little later than Basti Sheikh Darvesh by Mian Mithu Sahib, a Khalil Mattezai Pathan from the neighbourhood of Peshawar

Basti Nau,adjoining Basti Shah Kulli, was founded after the Sikh conquest of the region in 1759

Kot Kishan Chand,

Kot Lakhpat Rai, earlier known as Kot Daulat Khan,

Kot Sadat Khan,

Kot Achhi,

Kot Chimbian,

Kot Pakshian,

Kot Bahadur Khan,

Kot Mohammad Amin now known as Shivraj Garh,

Kot Sadiq,

Kot Badal Khan,

Kot Fazal Karim

Kot Asman Khan

Mai Hiran Gate,

Balmiki Gate,

Neela Mahal Gate,

Jaura Gate,

Khingran Gate,

Saidan Gate,

Phagwara Gate,

Sheetla Gate,

Khodian Gate,

Dehalvi Gate,

Shah Kuli Gate,

Lahore Gate

This is the tribal sketch of Jalandhar towns from www.jalandhar.nic.in. One must observe here that the people of Basti mitto Sahib/Kot Sadik are the real Pathans. The Barakis or Barkis are Persian people and can be named Tajiks. There is another name in the description of the tribes of Jalandhar that these are Ghuz Barkis. It is not correct, if they are Barkis they are Tajiks and if Ghuz are from Turkish group.

In Jalandhar there are following settled tribes;
Ghuz are Turks, Barkis are Tajik, Khalil are Afghans or Pathans from the central Peshawar region. So conclude yours and also inform us.
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  Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 22:33
Interesting ... My grandfather was from Jullandhar, and There was some sort of family link to Peshawar. But, The information i have does not help me affirm or conclude my heritage.

The question that hasn't been answered yet is, if you live in the Pukhtunkhwa and your originally from East India, are you to be considered a Pukhtun or is it a layman's misconception that everyone living under Pukthunkhwa is a Pukhtun ?


Edited by yas245 - 26-Jan-2009 at 22:58
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 07:17
On becoming a Pukhtoonkhwa if applied by the present Pakistan government, the Northwestern Frontier Province of Pakistan will see a movement of Non Pathan people of the north and north eastern section for its further demarcation of provincial boundary.

Edited by Cheeta - 27-Jan-2009 at 07:19
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  Quote Aryan de Pakhtra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 10:48
Originally posted by yas245

Interesting ... My grandfather was from Jullandhar, and There was some sort of family link to Peshawar. But, The information i have does not help me affirm or conclude my heritage.

The question that hasn't been answered yet is, if you live in the Pukhtunkhwa and your originally from East India, are you to be considered a Pukhtun or is it a layman's misconception that everyone living under Pukthunkhwa is a Pukhtun ?
 
If you are originally from India or Panjab, and go to Afghanistan or NWFP then you will not be considered Pashtun; you will probably be considered "Hindki" or "Hindkowan". Hindki have been living in Afghanistan for centuries, primarily in Kabul and Kandahar, as well as NWFP and speak Hindko which is Indo-Aryan language besides Pashto.
 
Although Dardics also speak Indo-Aryan languages, and live in eastern Afghanistan and northern NWFP, yet they are considered closely related to Pashtuns instead of Hindki.


Edited by Aryan de Pakhtra - 27-Jan-2009 at 10:52
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