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Topic ClosedIsrael attack Gaza, December 2008

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel attack Gaza, December 2008
    Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 02:06
Originally posted by edge

No, they've been restricted quite a bit since they were caught reverse-engineering American hardware and selling it to the Chinese.
I know, which is why I'm against Israel. I don't believe the US needs them, they were a tool for us as much as us to them. But now that we pretty much created two allies in the mid east, but Israel is still arguebly the strongest nation in the mid east. So better friend then enemy would be my guess on the American policy maker's view point.
Seems a little far-fetched ... they wouldn't really have a need to do that. No more than anyone else, anyway. We Canadians have industrial espionage in the US and vice-versa, same with Britain or any other close US allies. Nothing exceptional here, I don't think.
Maybe I'm thinking of the reverse engineering. In either case, Israel I've heard alot about Israel working against the US. Either way, it shows the two governments are working more in interests rather then one having any significant control or power over the other.
I never suggested anything of the sort. I pointed out that the US backs Israel in a substantial way, and the American taxpayer buys a good deal of their military equipment. You denied it and accused me of "pulling" something, so I spilled the details on FMF. That's all.
And I said that the US and Israel work in joint programs together through this funding. Either way, this 2 billion dollars they get every year, even without all of the US's support, I believe they'd still be ahead of the game in the mid east technology wise. They do manufacture their own weapons. Without they'd still be capable to attack Palestine the way they are now, it's the organized nations they aren't freidnly with that would be a challenge for them. No they aren't being attacked by them, but it's in their interest to be more powerful then all their neighbors.
I also mentioned AIPAC, but that's hardly a conspiracy: it's right out in the open. So is JINSA. That's just a powerful lobby and a propaganda group, not a hidden cabal. Their aim is simple, to secure as much funding as possible, to exert leverage on American politicans, and to attempt to reduce the amount of leverage/conditions exerted by whatever funding they obtain. They obviously also have a stake in American foreign policy, but aren't always succesful in that regard (if they were, Egypt wouldn't be a big FMF receiver as well).
Eactly, but even without those lobbyist, do you really think the US wouldn't have supported Israel? If your strong interests are in a region, you already have a nation that historically since a revolution isn't on friendly terms in Iran, but an ally from the cold war that also isn't friendly with Iran in Israel, not to mention very strong, wouldn't you keep that ally? Iran can makes things very shaky with the US, especially with it's friends in Russia who aren't exactly very happy with the US.

I recognize you don't have a cartoonish view of things; it would be appreciated if you'd extend the same recognition! I don't believe in any Zionist conspiracies and I don't see this as a black and white issue, with Israelis wearing horns and Palestinians sporting halos.

Your right egde, I apologize. I feel like everything is just rehashed and having the same Zionist conspiracy discussions from past threads. The arguements above are too similar. I don't think I'll be participating to much in this thread after this...

 
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by vulkan

What kind of strategy are you talking about and how do can you possibly think that a blank-check support for this terrorist state is in the interest of the US or better say the average American like you and me?
Israel is pretty much Iran's biggest road block for power in the area, it has the strongest capabilities and said it will bomb Iran if they reach nuclear compacity. Right their is a plus for the US without having to lift a finger. If you read the article you posted, it also said the US giving 20 billion in military equipement(same program used to aid Israel by the way) to Egypt and Suadi Arabia, two other nations that probably aren't on the best side of Iran. And another plus for the US. Then you have Iraq and Afghanistan, the two war area that we are trying to make into close knit allies with our military stationed there. Another plus.
And finally, we can see another important Ally in Turkey. They too claim a terrorist organization attacks them, the PKK. And they are using bombing raids in the Northern region of Iraq, and yet like Israel, the US sits back and doesn't tell them to stop. Even though the US is struggling to keep that country together. But keeping them close, we have airfields in Turkey, and Turkey is North of Iran. So another plus in what looks like a grand strategy against Iran. Not a Zionist conspiracy, more of a American one, and it's about power.
And why does US need to put pressure to Iran when Iran has said several times that its open to cooperation for a more stable Iraq? Is Iran threatening US or is it trying to counteract Israel which already has 100-150 nuclear warheads?
For US supremacy in the world, Iran seems to be the road block in the mid east. They are alot more close to Russia and China. Without there current government, the area would be much more secure for US interests. Every time they even make a speech against the West it seems to effect the oil supplies then economy. We saw that last summer I believe. They were also threatening to make a pact with other oil countries and switch to the Euro. There's alot for the US not to like if you paid attention to the events this year.
 
No S&D the only thing US is fighting for is the interested of the terrorist regime of Israel and the Zionist Conspiracy hasn't gripped the world but you would have to be both blind and deaf by now not to see that it thoroughly controls the US government.
Or if you've watched to many Hollywood movies, you might believe in such a conspiracy. You'd think they'd be allowed sales to Tomahawks, something Israel wanted. Or even the stealth capabilities when they get their F-35s. But maybe they just don't want people to figure out they control the US?
It's really not that hard to believe that the US acts in it's own interests is it?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 03:58
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

 Israel is pretty much Iran's biggest road block for power in the area, it has the strongest capabilities and said it will bomb Iran if they reach nuclear compacity. Right their is a plus for the US without having to lift a finger. If you read the article you posted, it also said the US giving 20 billion in military equipement(same program used to aid Israel by the way) to Egypt and Suadi Arabia, two other nations that probably aren't on the best side of Iran. And another plus for the US. Then you have Iraq and Afghanistan, the two war area that we are trying to make into close knit allies with our military stationed there. Another plus.
And finally, we can see another important Ally in Turkey. They too claim a terrorist organization attacks them, the PKK. And they are using bombing raids in the Northern region of Iraq, and yet like Israel, the US sits back and doesn't tell them to stop. Even though the US is struggling to keep that country together. But keeping them close, we have airfields in Turkey, and Turkey is North of Iran. So another plus in what looks like a grand strategy against Iran. Not a Zionist conspiracy, more of a American one, and it's about power.

I know that the US also funds the despotic governments of Egypt as well as Saudi Arabia which are both despised by their own citizens but can't do anything(yet) since the US supports their despots. All that you say is true but we differ fundamentally in ideology about how power should be used in the 21st century.  Your solution of a unilateral power controlling everyone else at bayonet point may be very well liked by American and Israeli authorities, but almost everywhere else this antiquated belief of conducting diplomacy is no longer the accepted default mode of projecting national power.

For US supremacy in the world, Iran seems to be the road block in the mid east. They are alot more close to Russia and China. Without there current government, the area would be much more secure for US interests. Every time they even make a speech against the West it seems to effect the oil supplies then economy. We saw that last summer I believe. They were also threatening to make a pact with other oil countries and switch to the Euro. There's alot for the US not to like if you paid attention to the events this year.


And why not? Why should they be forced to keep the dollar as their currency when all we do is destroy the governments who drop it? Is this what free-trade really is? It is their  economic right to drop the dollar and take more control of their own economy rather than be dictated by the whims of the capitalists in New York and Washington D.C.

 
Or if you've watched to many Hollywood movies, you might believe in such a conspiracy. You'd think they'd be allowed sales to Tomahawks, something Israel wanted. Or even the stealth capabilities when they get their F-35s. But maybe they just don't want people to figure out they control the US?
It's really not that hard to believe that the US acts in it's own interests is it?
 


Yes its very hard to believe US acts in the interests of the majority of its citizens when they give Israel all the weapons it needs(besides Tomahawks) and takes out potential competitors with bogus lies such as Iraq when no real direct threat is made to America.

This argument might be pointless to you because like I said you see the world as a winner take all battle but we, who criticize American and Israel, believe that a multipolar world will benefit everyone more including us here.
However this belief has already been defeated, like I've stated before the events of this century aren't going to be written by the powers of the 20th century. In the coming years ahead we are going to see most friction not between nations but withing their authority structures and respective populations. When I think of the 21'st century I think more of internal organizations such as Hezbollah or Hamas that will rip nations despotic authority internally rather than international conflicts with other countries. We live in very interesting times.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 04:06
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Nor its a failure of the Palestinians, they gave more than enough already to the Israelis without any reciporical.
they are not equal! get it, they havent given anything, the Isreali's are taking it.
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

The question here is about does Israel really want peace? The answer is no and neither its people who keep electing people who refuse to give peace.
of course and while you have rockets, suicides bombers and other pathetic attempts at justice they get a whole lot more, they are getting stronger in the chaos because they are still in control. Talks and peace limits their growth options, but no it doesnt wind back the clock either.
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

The reality is the paper Israel/US signs on is as worthless as a used toilet paper. In Oslo the Israel gave word that it will follow the peace including stopping colonies and the US pledged to force Israel to do that. What happened is that to this day the US bakrolled the doubling of the colonies (over $10 billion ), so why the Palestinians should ever accept a peace deal that is not going to be applied in the first place?
so why talk to the guy with the gun? let him take what he can instead. If you cant trust the talk then fight and die. The choice is save what you can or go down fighting for a bit more equaility that can be won by force.
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Anyway, here are some points in the Taba agreements that you haven't read yet:
 
1-Israel would have 8 permenant military installations (ie bases) within the West bank in points of its choosing, it is like Indonesia demanding bases on Cape York because of rebel activity in Aryan Jaya.
if they had that much domination i am sure they would, we do have a US one instead

4.1 Early warning stations

The Israeli side requested to have 3 early warning stations on Palestinian territory. The Palestinian side was prepared to accept the continued operations of early warning stations but subject to certain conditions. The exact mechanism has therefore to be detailed in further negotiations.




Originally posted by Al Jassas

2- Full control over West Bank airspace.


4.3 Air space control

The two sides recognized that the state of Palestine would have sovereignty over its airspace. The Israeli side agreed to accept and honor all of Palestine civil aviation rights according to international regulations, but sought a unified air control system under overriding Israel control. In addition, Israel requested access to Palestinian airspace for military operations and training.

The Palestinian side was interested in exploring models for broad cooperation and coordination in the civil aviation sphere, but unwilling to cede overriding control to Israel. As for Israeli military operations and training in Palestinian airspace, the Palestinian side rejected this request as inconsistent with the neutrality of the state of Palestine, saying that it cannot grant Israel these privileges while denying them to its Arab neighbors.



Originally posted by Al Jassas

3- A peacemeal withdrawl subject to the no man's lands and security zones mentioned above.


4.4 Time table for withdrawal from the West Bank and Jordan Valley

Based on the Clinton proposal, the Israeli side agreed to a withdrawal from the West Bank over a 36-month period with an additional 36 months for the Jordan Valley in conjunction with an international force, maintaining that a distinction should be made between withdrawal in the Jordan Valley and elsewhere.

The Palestinian side rejected a 36-month withdrawal process from the West Bank expressing concern that a lengthy process would exacerbate Palestinian-Israeli tensions. The Palestinian side proposed an 18 months withdrawal under the supervision of international forces. As to the Jordan Valley the Palestinian side was prepared to consider the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces for an additional 10-month period. Although the Palestinian side was ready to consider the presence of international forces in the West Bank for a longer period, it refused to accept the ongoing presence of Israeli forces.



Originally posted by Al Jassas

4- And here is the tricky part, sovereignty over borders with Egypt and particularly with Jordan was not as full as one might expect from a full independent state.



4.7 Borders and international crossings

The Palestinian side was confident that Palestinian sovereignty over borders and international crossing points would be recognized in the agreement. The two sides had, however, not yet resolved this issue including the question of monitoring and verification at Palestine's international borders (Israeli or international presence).



http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/prrn/papers/moratinos.html

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Now you should notice that I am not even talking about land grabs, I am discussing the most basic of all what defines states, sovereignty. Even the princely states of India had more sovereignty than the Palestinians.
 
Al-Jassas
nothing was set in stone so dont pass off the proposals as some sort of hard line guide.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 06:51
Hello Leo
 
In 1994 after the referendum on the peace in the Palestian territories was passed. They stopped suicide bombing, agreed and joined the Palestinian authority in negotiations and accept Israel. Israel signed a treaty to withdraw to the 67 borders with negotiations on certain issues relating to this withrawal. What happened?
 
First the Israelis under popular pressure confiscated large parts of the west bank, contiued to kill Palestinians and especially Hamas members, facilitated the massacre of Heberon and killed more than Goldstein did that day, refused to impliment the agreements for no reasons. And finally elected with overwhelming majority (60%) Shas and Likud parties both of whom refused peace altogether and murdered more and more Palestinians.
 
During the so called "peace years" (94-2000), colonization and land grab accelerated and the number of colonies was doubled along with the number of colonists. over 1000 Palestinian civilians were murdered by the Israeli war machine and the west Bank was cut to pieces by roadblocks and check points. It was the Israelis who refused peace not the Palestinians.
 
Also, the Palestinians again are not demanding extraordinary things, they only demand what they and the Israelis signed on in Oslo and Washington and the US guaranteed.
 
You don't change the rules of the game in the middle of the match or else this match is meaningless.
 
Finally bout the Taba conference, thanks for proving my point, what is the difference between "early warning stations" and the five "emergency deployment locations" Israel asked to permanantly maintain within the west bank, is it not another word for military base?
 
And what about full avaition rights "however" Israel has the "right" to "override" their dicisions, if you can find me another explaination other than total sovereignty of Israel over Palestinian air space then say it.
 
As for the rest, this was a declaration of principles, it was not binding and here is the devil which lied all along in the details which were never mentioned. All what was mentioned was general wording. Israeli officials later told a totally different story, two actually, which explained alot especially about the colonies issue.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 14:52
When I write actions of the West, I obviously talk about the governments, since it is them who take the actions. Most Western media is also pro-Israeli especially in the US (as I wrote, their mainstream is more pro-Israeli than the Israeli manstream media!). The public opinion, however, is divided, some are brainwashed into believing 'generous Israeli offers', 'Israel defending itself' (not meaning specific members here, so don't be offended) but others are sceptical, because, due to the scale of it, it is impossible to hide the Zionist barbarity. So in countries where the pro-Israeli spin is weaker, the public opinion is more normal (i.e. pro-Palestinian).

Greece was mentioned, they are not fully western, and they have an honourable voting record in the UN, they voted against Israel in 1948, IIRC.

The problem itself is just another problem created and maintained by Western imperialism and it will be solved (one way or another- not necessarily in a 'civilised' or pro-Palestinian way) when the region will be free.  

On a side note, inferior minds always fail to see the causal relationships, so I will help a bit: Tibetan resistance is not as violent as the Palestinian because Chinese occupation is not as barbaric as the Israeli one. A comparison only makes sense when you take the context into account. That's why one can not compare Israel to Hamas, but can compare Tibet to Palestine.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 02-Jan-2009 at 14:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 15:25
Thanks for explaining that to my clearly inferior mind. This is exactly the self righteous crap the left love to indulge in. Luckily few actually regard these people as intelligent other than their own ludicrously inflated ego's.


Edited by Parnell - 02-Jan-2009 at 15:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:39
Originally posted by vulkan

I know that the US also funds the despotic governments of Egypt as well as Saudi Arabia which are both despised by their own citizens but can't do anything(yet) since the US supports their despots. All that you say is true but we differ fundamentally in ideology about how power should be used in the 21st century.  Your solution of a unilateral power controlling everyone else at bayonet point may be very well liked by American and Israeli authorities, but almost everywhere else this antiquated belief of conducting diplomacy is no longer the accepted default mode of projecting national power.
Not saying I personnaly like. What I am saying is your on top in any catagory of the word, it's your interest to stay there no matter the outcome. And creating allies and shifting strengths and powers in any area of the world is just moving chess pieces around. And what I mean by those chess pieces is a grander strategy to keep that power.
 
And why not? Why should they be forced to keep the dollar as their currency when all we do is destroy the governments who drop it? Is this what free-trade really is? It is their  economic right to drop the dollar and take more control of their own economy rather than be dictated by the whims of the capitalists in New York and Washington D.C.
Well, I'm not sure that was ever really free trade. But rather if you, I or anyone else likes it or not, any government isn't looking out for the welfare for any other nation no matter what they say, they are looking in their own interests.
Watch, I bet in a couple years the US will be going to Darfur in the guise of stopping a genocide. But really, I believe they'll be going to offset China's growing power in Africa. It'll give the a good excuse and praise by other governments while helping their agenda.
Yes its very hard to believe US acts in the interests of the majority of its citizens when they give Israel all the weapons it needs(besides Tomahawks) and takes out potential competitors with bogus lies such as Iraq when no real direct threat is made to America.
Even if they were giving them weapons every year, do you honestly believe that without them they wouldn't have the same capabilities? The US has alot of joint weapons systems with them through cooperative development. I believe the new F-35 Helmet systems are of Israeli design. By now though, they should be filled up with bombs and guns from the US, stockpiled high. Enough to blow over Palestine a few times over with the amount of money they recieve. But the money goes into a few areas and it benefits the US too. I think the money used is for all of Israel's unfriendly neighbors, not just Hamas.
This argument might be pointless to you because like I said you see the world as a winner take all battle but we, who criticize American and Israel, believe that a multipolar world will benefit everyone more including us here.
We had a multipolar world once, it was the Cold War. Now China is growing enough to offset power and we see this in South America. It's emboldened South American governments to cause hostillity. Granted the US may have kept them in check before, but the point is, now you'll have to major conflicting factions that could become balanced in power one day. And with the way the world is heading with resources, I'm not entirely sure that good.
If they aren't friendly before, why will they when they are balanced in power. The Cold War could have gone to a full blown war a couple of times I believe, what will happen when two or more powers arise all vying for the same resources?
In the coming years ahead we are going to see most friction not between nations but withing their authority structures and respective populations. When I think of the 21'st century I think more of internal organizations such as Hezbollah or Hamas that will rip nations despotic authority internally rather than international conflicts with other countries. We live in very interesting times.Wink
I hope your right, unfortunatly, I'm not sure I see the samething. What I do see are more claims on areas by larger nations, even Canada and the US threatened each other over Artic areas, and everyone is trying to claim shelves below the Artic Ocean, Russia went as far as to plant a flag at the bottom of the ocean. Alot of major governments also seem to be peddling to smaller nations, trying to pull them to their side with any means necessary before a competitor can make a case.
Maybe I'm looking to much into it, but I hope your view is more correct.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 23:20
...moved to the Minefield. Continue your discussions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 01:10
Originally posted by S&D

We had a multipolar world once, it was the Cold War. Now China is growing enough to offset power and we see this in South America. It's emboldened South American governments to cause hostillity. Granted the US may have kept them in check before, but the point is, now you'll have to major conflicting factions that could become balanced in power one day. And with the way the world is heading with resources, I'm not entirely sure that good.

Oh those bad south americans! How dare they cause hostility? Don't they understand that their lot in life is to lick the mud off Americas boot? We should encourage peace throughout the world, because peace means status quo, not justice. Just because the status quo makes us rich, and them poor doesn't mean they have any right to complain! I mean Really!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 06:51
Way to go on taking that out of context! Please don't put words in my mouth. Try rereading what you quoted me on and look who China is getting involved with and who that person is. It's been in current events by the way.
All I was discussing is views on why there might be larger Wars, nothing else. So don't put words in my mouth, I mean Really! I'd appreciate it!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 07:23
Omar may have been sarcastic but his point remains valid. Your post seems to indicate a position advocating an American dominated world in which other nations should remain subordinate for the purposes of avoiding any conflict of interest.

Could one not argue that it is not the 'emboldened' governments of smaller nations that cause the problem, but the unyielding desire for superiority of major governments that will not allow the smaller nations domain over even their own people?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 07:58
Originally posted by S&D

Way to go on taking that out of context! Please don't put words in my mouth. Try rereading what you quoted me on and look who China is getting involved with and who that person is. It's been in current events by the way.

I reread it four times, and I still think that is what you were implying.
Let me explain, right now there is peace in Tibet. That is because the Chinese have crushed all opposition, not because the Tibetans are happy with the situation. The "world" is mono-polar. If Tibet became powerful the "world" would become multi-polar. This indeed might lead to a war between China & Tibet, but the fact the world is multi-polar is not to blame, the blame lies at the fact that the current situation is unfair on the Tibetans.
Therefore a chinese man may think a multi-polar world is a bad thing because they won't be able to do as they please in Tibet any more.

To compare my analog with yours, China is like the US, and Tibet is like South America, and you are like the chinese man
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 18:07
To compare my analog with yours, China is like the US, and Tibet is like South America, and you are like the chinese man
Only difference is, the US doesn't have any strong presence in South America. Brazil is growing into a world power on it's own, and the US isn't attacking Venezuela and Bolivia(the two countires I was refering to, by the way Hugo is doing a bang up job huh? His people want him out since he named himself a dictator) and yet the US still buys oil from Venezuela. On top of that Venezuela, well more of Chavez threatened to cut oil supplies with the US ever since it made a deal with China. There's that hostility I was talking about.
So no, your comparison there is way off, infact, they can't even look related since the US hasn't done anything to Venezuela since Chavez got in except buy their oil and ignore his rhetoric.
Compare the US and China when we send tanks and airstrikes to Venezuela.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 18:40
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Not saying I personnaly like. What I am saying is your on top in any catagory of the word, it's your interest to stay there no matter the outcome. And creating allies and shifting strengths and powers in any area of the world is just moving chess pieces around. And what I mean by those chess pieces is a grander strategy to keep that power.


True and I agree with this but I and many others view America more like a bully heavyweight boxer rather than a wise chess player. In other words, do everything it takes to win and then be surprised when your enemies carry out revenge operations such as 9-11.
 

Even if they were giving them weapons every year, do you honestly believe that without them they wouldn't have the same capabilities? The US has alot of joint weapons systems with them through cooperative development. I believe the new F-35 Helmet systems are of Israeli design. By now though, they should be filled up with bombs and guns from the US, stockpiled high. Enough to blow over Palestine a few times over with the amount of money they recieve. But the money goes into a few areas and it benefits the US too. I think the money used is for all of Israel's unfriendly neighbors, not just Hamas.

I think it damages the U. S. reputation far more than it helps it, and also that Israel would act far less aggressive towards the defenseless Palestinians were it not for U.S. military aid. Ironically I know that they reverse-engineer a lot of U.S. weapons and then they immediately sell it to the Chinese...

We had a multipolar world once, it was the Cold War. Now China is growing enough to offset power and we see this in South America. It's emboldened South American governments to cause hostillity. Granted the US may have kept them in check before, but the point is, now you'll have to major conflicting factions that could become balanced in power one day. And with the way the world is heading with resources, I'm not entirely sure that good.
If they aren't friendly before, why will they when they are balanced in power. The Cold War could have gone to a full blown war a couple of times I believe, what will happen when two or more powers arise all vying for the same resources?

Problem is that the cold war was a war of ideology and by the end of it one clearly worked out to be much better functioning than the other (capitalism obviously). Today's world is largerly a world devoid of ideology but only filled with the shades of how capitalism is implemented and when that also fails like its failing here in America for millions what else will established authority point to in order justify their rule over their masses? There is a distinct chance that America will either experience a revolution or will descend into a military dicatorship in the near future depending on how bad the sitation gets this year.

With regards to South America some countries revolted becuase too many didnt experince the benefit that America promised them with the free market and IMF loans.


I hope your right, unfortunatly, I'm not sure I see the samething. What I do see are more claims on areas by larger nations, even Canada and the US threatened each other over Artic areas, and everyone is trying to claim shelves below the Artic Ocean, Russia went as far as to plant a flag at the bottom of the ocean. Alot of major governments also seem to be peddling to smaller nations, trying to pull them to their side with any means necessary before a competitor can make a case.
Maybe I'm looking to much into it, but I hope your view is more correct.


I personnally think thats what we will see more and more. Today its not only America thats experiencing problems internally but nearly all countries which are its competitiors. The situation in China is even worse with millions and millions of their own citizens unhappy that they havent experienced the benefit of the new wealth under communist party reforms. The backroom negotiations and rampant corruption between the new rich class and the the communist party continues to eat away at the lingering legitimacy the the party still has.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 19:29
True and I agree with this but I and many others view America more like a bully heavyweight boxer rather than a wise chess player. In other words, do everything it takes to win and then be surprised when your enemies carry out revenge operations such as 9-11.
So we don't derail this any further, I give a quick answer.
I agree we are bullies, but I think there are many strategies in play from ignoring some hostile leaders, to attacking others, doing covert and overt operations, and to pleasing allies a whole lot to just appeasing others, or even trying to keep hostiles happy. The US seems to have a web of it all because it has the reach to do it, and it wants to keep that power. I'm not saying it's the right thing, but what I am saying is it's the most basic interest of any nation, to gain or keep the power to serve itself, at whatever level that maybe.
I think it damages the U. S. reputation far more than it helps it, and also that Israel would act far less aggressive towards the defenseless Palestinians were it not for U.S. military aid. Ironically I know that they reverse-engineer a lot of U.S. weapons and then they immediately sell it to the Chinese...
I think the US sees Israel as a large value in a area of the world where it doesn't get much support. You brought up 9/11 above. Supposedly one of the reasons 9/11 happened was because Osama felt insulted by the Suadi Royalty for choosing the US over him in ousting Saddam. He felt betrayed and also felt that it was a insult to his extreme ideas in Islam with Christians going into the Holy lands. You notice bin Laden never really spoke out against Israel and the US til after 9/11(atleast I haven't seen it, so maybe I'm just speaking on expierence from noticing it later on in the wars. Forgive me if I am).
Problem is that the cold war was a war of ideology and by the end of it one clearly worked out to be much better functioning than the other (capitalism obviously). Today's world is largerly a world devoid of ideology but only filled with the shades of how capitalism is implemented and when that also fails like its failing here in America for millions what else will established authority point to in order justify their rule over their masses? There is a distinct chance that America will either experience a revolution or will descend into a military dicatorship in the near future depending on how bad the sitation gets this year.
The US still hasn't fallen below it's peak from the late 80s. Through the history it's constantly gone up and down, and each recovery only taught new lessons to strengthen it. I highly doubt we'll see a revolution, most of the econmy is just built on ideas of fear and not anything that exists. Just Obama getting in to office saw a plus side on wall street, when they said the loans wouldn't go through for the automakers the market took a hit, when it was announced they would it got a increase. Thinking present tense, you'll think badly, in a couple years, everyone will be overly confident again and soon we'll probably see another period, much more mild, but one where everyone is thinking doom and gloom again.
With regards to South America some countries revolted becuase too many didnt experince the benefit that America promised them with the free market and IMF loans.
Currently Venezuela is who I have in mind. Ever since China signed a deal with them to build a refinery and have stronger ties. Chavez has gone on to say that he may cut the oil supply to the US(though he hasn't) and he was building his military up to prepare for a attack from the US. Thats fine, but why be hostile in those ways? Brazil is growing into a world power, and the US isn't meddling with them.
I personnally think thats what we will see more and more. Today its not only America thats experiencing problems internally but nearly all countries which are its competitiors. The situation in China is even worse with millions and millions of their own citizens unhappy that they havent experienced the benefit of the new wealth under communist party reforms. The backroom negotiations and rampant corruption between the new rich class and the the communist party continues to eat away at the lingering legitimacy the the party still has.
When many of the factories there closed, many had lost their homes since they lived in the factories' housing units. If there isn't going to be a country with a revolution, it maybe there, but I even doubt that'll happen.
I can't see it in the US at all. It would take years of this situation to cause anything, and people are still filled with hope with Obama coming in. If he can't find a cure for this problem, it will probably have settled it self out by the time his tenure is over anyways. What it will do though is change the radical market, CEO's won't be making obscene amounts of money, industries will be watched to make a better product, and laws will be made for companies not to sell things to customers they can't afford. There will be alot of change, but the American citizen will barely notice, but be in a better off enviroment.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I think the US sees Israel as a large value in a area of the world where it doesn't get much support. You brought up 9/11 above. Supposedly one of the reasons 9/11 happened was because Osama felt insulted by the Suadi Royalty for choosing the US over him in ousting Saddam. He felt betrayed and also felt that it was a insult to his extreme ideas in Islam with Christians going into the Holy lands. You notice bin Laden never really spoke out against Israel and the US til after 9/11(atleast I haven't seen it, so maybe I'm just speaking on expierence from noticing it later on in the wars. Forgive me if I am).

As far as I know Osama complains that the Saudi family doesn't follow Islam as he would like them to and that he correctly sees them(along with most other Arab leaders) as puppets of US and Israeli policy. Of course he hates Israeli oppression of Palestinians and directly holds America responsible for its unconditional backing of Israel.

The US still hasn't fallen below it's peak from the late 80s. Through the history it's constantly gone up and down, and each recovery only taught new lessons to strengthen it. I highly doubt we'll see a revolution, most of the econmy is just built on ideas of fear and not anything that exists. Just Obama getting in to office saw a plus side on wall street, when they said the loans wouldn't go through for the automakers the market took a hit, when it was announced they would it got a increase. Thinking present tense, you'll think badly, in a couple years, everyone will be overly confident again and soon we'll probably see another period, much more mild, but one where everyone is thinking doom and gloom again.

Maybe it will be better, I also find a revolution unlikely here. One thing is certain though, the standard of living for millions of Americans is worse today than it was 20 years ago. With millions under crushing debt, some that it might take their whole life to pay off if they can, I don't see how things can get much better. The only ones who will profit are those who are already rich, buying up public resources at a reduced price.


 When many of the factories there closed, many had lost their homes since they lived in the factories' housing units. If there isn't going to be a country with a revolution, it maybe there, but I even doubt that'll happen.
I can't see it in the US at all. It would take years of this situation to cause anything, and people are still filled with hope with Obama coming in. If he can't find a cure for this problem, it will probably have settled it self out by the time his tenure is over anyways. What it will do though is change the radical market, CEO's won't be making obscene amounts of money, industries will be watched to make a better product, and laws will be made for companies not to sell things to customers they can't afford. There will be alot of change, but the American citizen will barely notice, but be in a better off enviroment.

Like you said the change will be minimal and the average guy won't even notice it. However the future is uncertain and just so I don't divert more from the topic we have another thread about the Russian guy that predicted the breakup of America in 2010. Crazy to think of it but if im not mistaken the same guy predicted that USSR would break up in 1976 at which point everyone laughed at him.
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 23:49

Sorry Vulkan, I started to respond to each one of your above statements, but it's just going to go further off topic if I do. I can't keep going. Our ideas are far different, but I do think we hold hope for the same outcomes, just different paths.

Your last two statements though could be discussed in the thread about US break up though. So maybe we'll get a good discussion there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 14:10
Originally posted by Parnell

Thanks for explaining that to my clearly inferior mind. This is exactly the self righteous crap the left love to indulge in. Luckily few actually regard these people as intelligent other than their own ludicrously inflated ego's.

It seems inferior minds also need to be reminded what they have been writing:

These are the double standards I'm talking about. Braindead polemics with no real mind for working at a solution.

So I am 'braindead'. 

Saggy minds like yours obsessed with the past is exactly whats wrong with any peace process in the middle east and why they always break down.

So I have a 'saggy mind'...

Not to mention that I am also an 'arse-cheek' and I fail to understand the situations in Tibet and Israel unlike you do (talking about ego)...

Anyway, I won't bash you anymore. It feels like playing basketball with a dwarf. 


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 04-Jan-2009 at 14:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 14:15
I wonder when Obama is going to say something. Does the U.S. support Israel without any criticism?
 
Or he really was not saying the truth when he said the U.S. will change?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 14:31
Pinguin
Or he really was not saying the truth when he said the U.S. will change?


Its all pollitics man.
U.S arn't going to change official state policies because a new leader is in town, he'll have to adapt and can make changes in areas that don't effect the state's strategic concerns.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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