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Rommel overated?

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  Quote Indiana Jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rommel overated?
    Posted: 21-May-2005 at 16:10
Rommel has received his fair share of attention. I do not believe he was overated. He was an excellent adversary for the Americans and British in North Africa and he had a role in the D-Day battles. Perhaps the media may have had some effect to create this, but Rommel is often seen as a step above all other Nazi generals and given an aura of honesty and as a man who is simply fighting for his country and does not care about the politics of it.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 12:04

Rommel was a good, reckless general.  Yes, his bravery warrant him respect, but he was quiet reckless.

Compare him to Napoleon, Nappy wins big time. 

Nappy belongs with the Sun Tzu's, Alexander the Great (or Terrible), Hannibal & Genghis Khan.

 

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2005 at 03:33
Rommel's book on infantry tactics is still used, and still valid.. so there must be some genius behind it.
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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 15:11
Perhaps the media made Rommel bigger than he was but that was BECAUSE he was always in the front lines with his troops or actually, with the men during the battles.  he absolutly hated being miles behind the line.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 13:05
Part of the Rommel thing was that he was the main adverery for the British in Africa, and this got alot of media attention, and later when Allied troops landed in Normandy, who was there, Rommel again.
He is sort of a public face as it were, where as Manstein and Guderian are more behind the scenes and less visible. Thus everyone wants to know about Rommel, and fewer have heard about the other two.
I sense that by playing up Rommel's brilliance in the eyes of the British press, his eventual defeat would become something of a propaganda coup and a big morale booster. N. Africa saw the first serious victories for the British after a what looked like a bad start to the war.
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 22:20

 

 I think Rommel was clearly the best, unlike the other he wasn't from the prussian school of thought, he was from Wurrtemberg. Rommel was very flexible on the battlefield and not rigid like the others. In that aspect he ressembled Napoleon, he was expert in quick analysis and processing of information, and at time act on instinct. I think for that reason he should be considered as exceptional.

 And what make him closer again to Napoleon, Rommel has this code of honour, he has humanity unlike the other NAZI monsters, a sort of chivalry in other word. In other word he got charisma.

 



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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 21:44
Rommel also wanted to meet the Allied invasion of D-day head-on, which in hindsight might have been the best move...von Rundstedt wanted to let the Allies land and then face them - he won the day.

Agreed that Manstein was one of the best generals modern Germany has had....
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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 21:33

Are you kidding me with the English defences?!  Rommel secured those things past what anyone other commander there did with what VERY little he had.  He even convinced the French to help make the defenses by friendly means.  He would tell the French that if the defeces are bad, the allies will destroy that part of the defeses aong with the homes and buildings in that town.  So that motto of the French was "Let the Allies come, but not in my backyard"!  They worked very hard to the very best of anyones ability.  Rommel also scetched everything he wanted done which helped the builders tremedously!

And in fact, the allies were so worried about Rommel being in charge of defeses that they almost stopped the invasion and decided it was a higher priority to either kill of capture him first.  But after Rommel's car accident and run in with a fighter, they decided to continue with the attack.

And besides, if Rommel had actually been allowed to command his troops, the Allies would have been beaten back before they got a landing!  Luckilly Hitler was a moron and killed his best general!

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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 20:54
      Rommel is a bit overated. He was a great leader of the Afrika Korps, but his defensive wall in the English Channel only caused tiny caustie rates for the Allied landing of D-Day.
Quotes by your's turly:

"I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend"

"This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride."

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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 17:19

First of all, the list given was a list of  tanks, not supplies.  So the more tanks Rommel received the less supplies he had.  So more tanks is not neccessarily better.

Secondly, Rommel advanced on Egypt because he was ordered to.  And then when his forces were being overwhelmed by vastly overwhelming numbers of enemies with the supplies of the US behind them, Hitler ordered Rommel to fight to the last man.  Thank goodness he didn't!

And once again, Rommel received plenty of reinforcements but those reinforcements came without the neeeded supplies to keep them up and running!

Now if people would just post THEIR OPINION we can all get over what I THINK!!!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 08:44

rommel neither overrated neither underrated..he has right place in history...

his only mistake was malta..but in the dunes of africa he is still the best....

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 06:59

Originally posted by Thegeneral


Well, the eproblem with supplies could be giving to Rommel, but he really had no controll over his own supplies.  During the end of the African campaign(in the later years when the Afrika Korps began to fail) the German began their attack on Russia which even Rommel thought was a good idea.  And for a time it was; everything was going good.  Then Stalingrad; the supplies just stopped coming to Afica, and Rommel understood why but he said they should not have been fighting on 3 fronts. 

The Supplies didn't stop coming, Rommel recived large reinforcements in the form of the 5th Panzer Army which included 10th Panzer-division, 334th Infantry divsion, the Herman Goring division, elite fallschimjaegers of regiemnts Barenthin and Koch as well as the 501st and 502nd Heavy Tank battalions armed with the fearsome Panzer VI "Tiger". The luftwaffe intervende with both combat units and transport units and this was at a time there was a shortage of both fighter and transport aircraft in the units responsible for mantaining the airbridge to Stalingrad.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 02:49

Originally posted by Thegeneral

Rommel had a very good grasp on corps and army level logics; you win beat the enemy before they beat you. 

"Logistics: 1. the organization of moving, lodging and supplying troops and equipment. 2. the detailed organisation and implementation of a plan or operation." -The concise Oxford dictionary.

Nothing in there about "beating the enemy" as you can see, "beating the enemy" is part of tactics, the operational art and strategy, not logistics as any military professional would know. Rommel was a commander who excelled at tactics and leadership but his graps of the operational art and strategy was profoundly flawed. Just look at his famous operation at Gazala where he managed to get both his mobile corps trapped against the vast brittish minefields with cut lines of supply. Only the flaws in the brittish deployment combiend with the inferior equipment and tactics of the brittish armour as well as some very hard fighting on part of the Ariete divsion saved the DAK&20th corps.

Originally posted by Thegeneral

The supply problem was that the command did not send the need supplies.  The High Command told Rommel he would have the neccessary supplies, but they hardly ever sent supplies.  And when they did, the Brits took them out because the Italians did not defend their transports.

Africa shipments (total arrived plus number lost in transit in parens):

8-10 March 41, 5 le.Afrika-Div. with 25 Pz I, 45 Pz II, 61 (10) Pz III, 17 (3) Pz IV
24 April-6 May 41, 21 Pz.Div. with 45 Pz II, 71 Pz III, 20 Pz IV

Replacements (release date given, all arrived between August and October 1941):
? April 41, 10 Pz III, 3 Pz IV
4 June 41, 15 Pz III, 5 Pz IV
30 June 41, 4 Pz II, 6 Pz III
10 July 41, 4 Pz III
19 December 41, 11 (11) Pz III, 34 (34) Pz IV

Monthly reported shipments:
January 42, 81 Pz III, 18 Pz IV
February 42, 75 Pz III, 22 Pz IV
March 42, 6 (3) Pz III
April 42, 14 Pz III
May 42, 33 (6) Pz III, 9 Pz IV
June 42, 2 (6) Pz III
July 42, 47 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
August 42, 29 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
September 42, 7 (9) Pz III, 12 Pz IV

Arrived November-December 1942:
Pz.Abtl. 190 with 7 Pz II, 52 Pz III, 10 Pz IV
10. Pz.Div. with 19 (2) Pz II, 89 (16) Pz III, 8 (12) Pz IV
s.Pz.Abtl. 501 with 25 Pz III, 20 Tiger

Arrived March-April 43:
s.Pz.Abtl. 504 with 19 Pz III, 11 Tiger
3./Pz.Regt. HG with 2 Pz III, 8 Pz IV

Replacements 1 November 42-1 May 1943:
68 (16) Pz III, 142 (2) Pz IV

So, if I can add them up right for once, 25 Pz I, 120 (2) Pz II, 727 (82) Pz III, 328 (77) Pz IV, and 31 Tiger. Note that of the 1,393 recorded as shipped, only 149 were lost in shipping to enemy action (the 13 lost in March 41 were to a shipboard fire), or just over 10 percent. OTOH note that half those shipped as critical reinforcements to Pz.A.O.K. Afrika in December 1941 were lost.

 http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14292

And that's just the German tanks shipped to Africa, as can be seen Rommel recevied a steady stream of replacements&reinforcements as well as supplies. Most of which got through thanks to the efforts of the much malinged Italian navy and merchant marine. Considering the problems faced by the much better equiped and trained Royal Navy and later on the U.S Navy in protecting convoys the Italians did well. From 1942 onwards the main problem was that Rommel vetoed the invasion of Malta and the fact that ULTRA allowed the Royal Navy to target the tankers bringing the fuel to N. Africa with pin-point accuracy. (See Barr, 'Pendulum of War')

One should also be aware that Rommel's units were far more supply demanding than the other units in the Wehrmacht at the time. A unit deplyed to Africa had to be motorised since animal transport wasn't an option. And a motorised unit in Africa needed 10(!) times the trucks of a unit deployed in France or on the Eastern front when you count the trucks need to make the logistics work at all. (Tamelander, 'Malta') Do you send the limited of the wehrmacht to the Eastern front where the war is decided or do you send them to a vainglorious general in the desert who's has to have the resources of 10 divisions in order to get a single one of his divisions working...

Romme still got a preferential treatment and his units recived allotments of for example modern AT-guns in numbers that the hard pressed landser on the eastern front could only dream about.  

Originally posted by Thegeneral

Rommel advanced on Egypt because it was an order from Hitler.  Rommel attacked and did what Hitler told him to do even when it went against his better thinking.  When Hitler told him to fight to the last man he did that to the best he could do even though he knew it was the wrong choice.  He did not have as much control as most think.  Had he done what he had planned things would have definatly gone a differnt direction!

Actualy it was Rommel who presuaded Hitler to order the advance into Egypt rather than th Hitler ordering it. Rommel went outside the chain-of-command when Kesselring, Cavallero and von Rinteln among others objected to the advance and wanted to carry out Operation Herkules instead (the invasion of Malta). Herkules was the follow-on operation to Operation Venzia (Gazala offensive) and was part of the Axis strategy of the invasion of Egypt. However Rommles hastily planned invasion of Egypt could not be carried out at the same time as Herkules since the later op. required most of his air units hence he went directly to Hitler to get what he wanted. (Greee&Massignani 'Rommel's Northa African camapign' and Barr 'Pendulum of War')

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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 21:29
The reason he was killed was because Hitler found a document with the name of possible people to take over after Hitler died.  Rommel's name just happened to be on it.  Whether or not he was framed I do not know.  But he was forming groups to surrender to the Allies and overthrow Hitler.  After Hitler was gone Germans would pull out of Europe and continue to fight Russia as a sort of blockade against the commies, which Rommel believed was a mutual hatred.  So he was involved in a plot to over throw Hitler, which is a good thing of course.  Better to die tring to take down a mad ruler than die fighting for him.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 19:47

He also disobeyed just before he was relieved of his command in Africa, for retreating when he was told to die to a man.

 

And on the one that cost him his life. Historians these days believe he had nothing to do with the plot to kill Hitler, he was framed by his rivals.



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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 15:41
The one time he disobeyed.  And he was quickly reprmanded for it and was threatened.  He only disobeyed one other time which cost him his life.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 14:49
Originally posted by Thegeneral

Rommel advanced on Egypt because it was an order from Hitler.  Rommel attacked and did what Hitler told him to do even when it went against his better thinking.  When Hitler told him to fight to the last man he did that to the best he could do even though he knew it was the wrong choice.  He did not have as much control as most think.  Had he done what he had planned things would have definatly gone a differnt direction!

Rommel was told by Hitler to defend Tripoli, he disobeyed Hitler and attacked.



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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 12:57

Rommel had a very good grasp on corps and army level logics; you win beat the enemy before they beat you.  Had Rommel been given more supplies in Africa and more command in France the Axis would have done a lot better.  So I suppose we can give part of the Allies victory to Hitler!

The supply problem was that the command did not send the need supplies.  The High Command told Rommel he would have the neccessary supplies, but they hardly ever sent supplies.  And when they did, the Brits took them out because the Italians did not defend their transports.

Rommel advanced on Egypt because it was an order from Hitler.  Rommel attacked and did what Hitler told him to do even when it went against his better thinking.  When Hitler told him to fight to the last man he did that to the best he could do even though he knew it was the wrong choice.  He did not have as much control as most think.  Had he done what he had planned things would have definatly gone a differnt direction!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 12:11
Originally posted by Captain_Gars

The main reason for Panzer-armee Afrika gettign caught at El Alamein, rommel advance towards Egypt with insufficent fuel&other supllies hopign to either capture more supplies on the wayor to make the 8th Army collapse.  

That is true. Rommel always captured all the fuel the British had so urgently left behind during his initial attacks. So of course his entire strategy for the African campaign slowly built up on the hope to always use what the British had left for him. And this only worked up to a certain point which Rommel failed to recognize.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 11:11

The main reason Rommel ran out of supplies was not that the High command didn't send them or that they got sunk, the main problem was none other than Rommel himself who had a poor grasp of corps&army-level lgoistics and consistently chose to undertake operations for which he didn't have the supplies or support necessary. Rommel did not have a professional graps of logistics since he had not served on the German General Staff or recived the necessary education in that area. He simply lacecked the trainign required fro hig elvel command and only his inate skill anda lot of luck made him a successfull commander at the divisional and corps levels. As an Army commander he was only fair and his graps on army group operatiosn was frankly poor.  

The was the main reason for Panzer-armee Afrika gettign caught at El Alamein, rommel advance towards Egypt with insufficent fuel&other supllies hopign to either capture more supplies on the wayor to make the 8th Army collapse.

Once he was halted by the confused fighting durign the 1st battle of El Alamein he didn't have the fuel or vehicles necessary to withdraw and was forced to fight in place.   

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