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Macedonian-Greek argument?

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Macedonian-Greek argument?
    Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 07:38
No one is worried about the physical threat of FYROM, its not about territory though such implications are also considered. Its about identity, which is very important to the stake holders on both sides. Emotional not actual, but nevertheless real in our minds....
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 14:34
Originally posted by Suren

Certainly, Macedonia is a name that reminds us of Phillip and Alex which Greeks take their inspiration and pride; If you  take that name from Greeks it looks like you have stolen a big chunk of their pride and history.
 
Actually I've spent all my lifetime talking and reading about Philip (and Alexander) of Macedon, not of Macedonia. In English, 'Macedonia' is quite a recent name.
 
Hey, if the Greeks want to call the country 'FYROM' (or whatever that is in Greek), then fine, no-one's stopping them. If the modern inhabitants want to call it 'Macedonia' (or whatever that is in Macedonian (!)), then that's fine too.
 
What's galling is the chutzpah of expecting other countries to change their names for the country just to suit someone else. There's no reason why the French or the Germans or the English or anyone else should use anything but the names that naturally fit in their language, and no reason why the Greeks or any kind of Macedonian should expect them to.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 14:46
One father can have two sons. Why can't Macedonians and Greeks both accept that they are both descendants of Alexander if it is so important? This is a silly Balkan nationalist dispute leading to silly results like some Macedonians believing Alexander spoke their version of Bulgarian.

If I have to choose a primary descendant, that would be Greeks for obivious reasons, but Macedonians live in Macedonia and they have the right to claim the history of their land, as well. So Macedonians should accept that Alexander was a part of the Hellenistic 'civilisation' and they Greeks should allow the Macedonians to say that they are Alexander's descendants. Rather than accusing each other of 'stealing' their 'history'.

Same for other countries such as Turkey. Greeks are an older literary culture so there is no point denying or trying to hide their existence in Turkey before the Turks. Turkey should accept the ancient Greek presence and their contribution to Turkey of today (cultural, genetic, whatever), and Greece should not complain about Turks considering the Ionians their ancestors.

Provided all sides don't use these points as justification for territorial expansion (fear of this is the problem at the heart of the matter) it will only be beneficial for all sides involved. 

There are of course insecurities on all sides, and Greece has a special position being the favourite of the West. I think Greeks are afraid that if they accept anyone else being related to the ancient peoples whom the Westerners (falsely) revere as their ancestors, they will lose this status. However, we are no longer in the 19th century, and Greece's ties with the West are secure enough. They don't need to worry any more.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 20:53
Beylerbeyi
Same for other countries such as Turkey. Greeks are an older literary culture so there is no point denying or trying to hide their existence in Turkey before the Turks. Turkey should accept the ancient Greek presence and their contribution to Turkey of today (cultural, genetic, whatever), and Greece should not complain about Turks considering the Ionians their ancestors.

I havn't come across a Turk who believes there were never Greeks in Turkey. Neither have I come across a Greek complaining about Turks claiming Ionians are their ancestors, forget that how many Turks claim they are ancient Greeks in the first place LOL And its not like Ancient Greek culture is similar to modern Greek culture let alone Turkish.

Anyway from a non-Greek, non-Macedonian point of view the whole thing seems a little childish.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 21:10
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 

I think gcle put it, this is a stupid argument over nothing. If FYRM wanted territory it would have demanded it either as Macedonia or what ever name the greeks chose for it. Plus, they could barely handle a group pf Albanian gangs let alone the Greek army.

 

AL-Jassas


Amen - I agree!!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 22:17
The problem is though that in the Balkans - no matter which fill in the blank nationality you choose - common sense just is not that common, sadly so. Thus you get YouTube wars between Bosniaks/Croats- Serbs, Macedonian/Greek, Turkish/Greek, and combinations of one or two against the rest. Not just there, but other places, too.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 22:52
Youtube wars are hilarious, the only problem is those involved take it so seriously, our brave  arm-chair warriors LOL.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 22:54
Originally posted by Bulldog

our brave  arm-chair warriors LOL.
Embarrassed
 
Precisely
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 06:26
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

One father can have two sons. Why can't Macedonians and Greeks both accept that they are both descendants of Alexander if it is so important? This is a silly Balkan nationalist dispute leading to silly results like some Macedonians believing Alexander spoke their version of Bulgarian.

If I have to choose a primary descendant, that would be Greeks for obivious reasons, but Macedonians live in Macedonia and they have the right to claim the history of their land, as well. So Macedonians should accept that Alexander was a part of the Hellenistic 'civilisation' and they Greeks should allow the Macedonians to say that they are Alexander's descendants. Rather than accusing each other of 'stealing' their 'history'.

Same for other countries such as Turkey. Greeks are an older literary culture so there is no point denying or trying to hide their existence in Turkey before the Turks. Turkey should accept the ancient Greek presence and their contribution to Turkey of today (cultural, genetic, whatever), and Greece should not complain about Turks considering the Ionians their ancestors.

Provided all sides don't use these points as justification for territorial expansion (fear of this is the problem at the heart of the matter) it will only be beneficial for all sides involved. 

There are of course insecurities on all sides, and Greece has a special position being the favourite of the West. I think Greeks are afraid that if they accept anyone else being related to the ancient peoples whom the Westerners (falsely) revere as their ancestors, they will lose this status. However, we are no longer in the 19th century, and Greece's ties with the West are secure enough. They don't need to worry any more.


The difference Beylerbeyi, is that Turks are very well aware that apart from their Turkic herritage, they have native herritage as well. However, in an official level (i'm not talking about a few romantic individuals), they do not deny that some of their native herritage is bound to Greeks or other nations. That's why you never have a conflict about things like for example "Miletus was a Turkic - no Miletus was a Hellenic city". Erdogan or any other politician, never promoted the Turkishness of ancient figures of Anatolia, nor equated Ionians = Turks.

From that point there's a big difference.


Edited by Flipper - 15-Jan-2009 at 06:28


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 11:31
^ yeah that the difference. i would be very happy if west coast Turks found their 'inner Ionian' ..but it would be different if they turned the Ionian into something different and exclusive. There is a difference in sharing history and claiming it. Not one Greek would care if their neighbors were loving  that history and belonging to it. Its the change part that sucks.

 I mean how annoying was it when we use to get all that Etruscan\Sumerian\native American\etc  are proto turk from the odd Net nationalist? We are talking about a country with an education system teaching this stuff, along that type logic and making other silly claims.

Bey, I also need to point out Alexander and that kingdom was #99% based in modern day Greece not so much FYROM. I agree they could share related descendants, but not any more than the any other language groups in that region. They are not 'macedonian' genetically (nor are Greeks) you already know how that works.


Edited by Leonidas - 15-Jan-2009 at 11:34
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 12:14
I havn't come across a Turk who believes there were never Greeks in Turkey. Neither have I come across a Greek complaining about Turks claiming Ionians are their ancestors, forget that how many Turks claim they are ancient Greeks in the first place LOL And its not like Ancient Greek culture is similar to modern Greek culture let alone Turkish.

Well, what I have written may sound funny to a British schoolboy like you, but I happen to be a Turk from from Turkey and I went through the education system (it keeps changing, maybe is better now). 

Anyway, even though your native language is English, you failed to understand what I have written, which is sad. I wrote 'Turkey should accept Greek presence', which means official history of the Turkish state should change. The point is it denies any kinship of Turks with Anatolian peoples. Yes, at some point they claimed Sumerians and Hittites etc were Turks, but it was in the 1930s. Today they follow the lame 'Turkish-Islamic synthesis' doctrine.

The state plays down the Greek and Byzantine history of the land, and it is wrong. And Greeks do complain about this. They did to me many times. And Turkish people should learn that these are a part of our heritage and ancestory. Of course, not like 'Ionians were Turks', but 'Ionians are among our ancestors'.

Many people in Turkey always supported the idea of descent from Anatolians. Even the state TV shows documentaries where they praise Ionian critical thinking versus Athenian religious darkness in Socrates' time. When they do this they never mention Ionians are also Greeks. Which is absurd. 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 13:59

Beylerbeyi
Anyway, even though your native language is English


According to you it is.

Beylerbeyi
Well, what I have written may sound funny to a British schoolboy like you, but I happen to be a Turk from from Turkey and I went through the education system (it keeps changing, maybe is better now).


Someones getting a little touchy LOL

You don't know where I grew up or where I was educated, so your in no position to write my biography.



Beylerbeyi
you failed to understand what I have written, which is sad. I wrote 'Turkey should accept Greek presence', which means official history of the Turkish state should change. The point is it denies any kinship of Turks with Anatolian peoples. Yes, at some point they claimed Sumerians and Hittites etc were Turks, but it was in the 1930s. Today they follow the lame 'Turkish-Islamic synthesis' doctrine.


This romantic anatolianism would create a situation like that of the ridiculous Macedonian-Greek argument. There would be Turks claiming they are the original Anatolians and that these people's spoke archaic Turkic as well as being Proto-Turks. There already exists such a bunch of warped people who believe this nonsense sometimes they appear on this site claiming all these peoples were actually Turks.

There is no kinship between Turks and Anatolian peoples, firstly when the Turks arrived there were no ancient Anatolian peoples, there were various Christian Byzantine peoples.

What is lame about the Turkish-Islamic synthesis? Turks are obviously Turkish speaking peoples, this language has its roots in Central Asia and the peoples that came with this language and identifier name (Turk), conquered, settled and assimilated the region. Also they are a majority muslim peoples and have been for a millenia.

Now this definately beats the alternative of Turks reclaiming their ancient Hitite lands from the Greek colonists.

Beylerbeyi
The state plays down the Greek and Byzantine history of the land, and it is wrong.


It is wrong but history is written by the victors, obviously they're going to give more emphasis to their own history than others. However, as relations with Greece improve so will historical bias, when people feel less threatened they open up.

Beylerbeyi
Many people in Turkey always supported the idea of descent from Anatolians.


Many? a few crackpot historical revisionists trying to gain support for their Anatolianism by claiming its Pan-Turkism as well.

Let's be honest, unfortunately for most people the stones from ancient or old non-Turk/Muslim structures are nothing but good house building stones. You can go to so many villages and towns and see examples of this. However, the same people could start a riot if someone tried to do the same to one of their mosques, holy man tombs, shrines etc

Beylerbeyi
 Even the state TV shows documentaries where they praise Ionian critical thinking versus Athenian religious darkness in Socrates' time. When they do this they never mention Ionians are also Greeks. Which is absurd.


Its petty and childish.




Edited by Bulldog - 15-Jan-2009 at 14:06
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 14:45
I know you and so I know that there is no point with discussing Turkey with a wiki-nationalist, so I won't do that. Suffice to say that you have no understanding of the situation whatsoever, the crackpots who claim 'etruscans etc. are Turks' are products of the denial of the heritage not of its acceptance. 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi


The state plays down the Greek and Byzantine history of the land, and it is wrong. And Greeks do complain about this. They did to me many times. And Turkish people should learn that these are a part of our heritage and ancestory. Of course, not like 'Ionians were Turks', but 'Ionians are among our ancestors'.

Many people in Turkey always supported the idea of descent from Anatolians. Even the state TV shows documentaries where they praise Ionian critical thinking versus Athenian religious darkness in Socrates' time. When they do this they never mention Ionians are also Greeks. Which is absurd. 


Beylerbeyi, you present this very correct and i'm glad for that. If the same tone was present in the Macedonian conflict then it would never have been a problem.


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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 15:35
Beylerbeyi
I know you


Do you understand what "I know you" means.
You don't know me, sorry mate.

Beylerbeyi
 and so I know that there is no point with discussing Turkey with a wiki-nationalist


Confused


Beylerbeyithe crackpots who claim 'etruscans etc. are Turks' are products of the denial of the heritage not of its acceptance.


No, they're delusional people who think they're ancient Anatolians, then think to themselves, hey but wait a minute if were ancient Anatolians why do we speak Turkish, why did Turks first appear in Central Asia and how can they be ancient Anatolians if they conquered Anatolia relatively recently. Then we all know what happens next, the same thing that Macedonia is doing today. We'd have Turks telling Greeks that the ancients are their ancestors and they speak the ancient language, have the heritage bla bla bla

If Macedonians accepted that they speak a different language to the the Macedonians of old and realised they had more in common with Bulgaria they wouldn't have start making all these claims.




Edited by Bulldog - 15-Jan-2009 at 15:39
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 18:44
Originally posted by Husaria

So whats it all about? I got a bunch of Macedonian friends that dislike and argue with Greeks alot but i have no clue what the argument is exactly. I know this is a touchy subject so please be respectful about both sides of it, no bias.
 

FYROM Name Issue …. self-determination or territorial aspiration issue ?

FYROM Slavmacedonians(leadership and people) claim that theirs nation has right to self-determination and this is true.From the other side , Greece declared it had no claims on FYROM'S territory. Greece's only serious grievance was, and still is, the use by FYROM of the name "Macedonia" and its derivatives.

Greece presented her case as follows [1]:

Usurpation of Greece’s cultural and historical legacy.
Greece considers the use of the constitutional name ‘Macedonia’ as usurpation of a name belonging to Greek history and heritage, which, moreover, have nothing to do with the culture and legacy of the current inhabitants of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, who are descended from Slavs that settled in the region in the 6th century, long after the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. The Macedonians of the Kingdom of Macedonia, instead, were Greeks, who spoke Greek and took part in the Olympic Games, which was a prerogative of Greeks and denied to all foreigners. For Greece, this historical clarification is crucial, since the name issue is only the tip of the iceberg: in its opinion, the authorities of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” are engaging in a very dangerous exercise of rewriting history, which – more or less deliberately – encourages their citizens to believe they are descendants of the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia, that is of a non-Greek Macedonian ethnic group that settled in the region before the Slavs arrived. This rewriting of history extends to provocative gestures, such as the Gruevski government’s decision to rename Skopje airport ‘Alexander the Great’ in 2007, and numerous other initiatives which started with independence and have come thick and fast since 1997. Moreover, Greece considers “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” responsible for failing to discourage acts by private entities or individuals which could result in animosity, hostility and violence, including abroad.

Risk of leading to territorial claims.
For Greece, the ultimate risk in this type of process is that of opening the door to future territorial claims. It is well aware that “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” introduced constitutional amendments in 1992, explicitly renouncing all territorial claims against its neighbours. However, in its view, obfuscating certain historical facts, or even manipulating them in school or military contexts, may well spark a spirit of revenge among the general public. For example, Greece points out that many of the history and geography books1 used in schools and military academies treat “Macedonia” as a single ethnic and geographical entity. Part of that entity is said to have been partitioned between several states in the region - including Greece - which implies full-scale foreign occupation. Obviously, any suggestion of “occupation” may well provoke irredentist reactions - not necessarily now, but perhaps in the future. Great example was a documentary filmed in Skopje’s schools, which, the Greek authorities claim, is proof of the confusion surrounding “Macedonia’s” ethnic and geographical borders, not just among pupils, but also among teachers.In an unstable and volatile region like the Balkans, the risk of dangerous developments should not be underestimated, especially when ethnic and territorial issues are involved.

Risk of confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia.
In addition,Greece argues that the use of the name ‘Macedonia’ for its northern neighbour creates a risk of confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia and may bring about prejudice to exports of products from this region.

FYROM presented her case as follows [1] :

National identity.
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” is a newly-independent state, engaged in the process of consolidating its democratic institutions and overcoming possible ethnic tensions through the reinforcement of a sense of civic citizenship among its population. Over time, not only have its borders varied considerably but also its very existence has had no continuity, even as a non-independent political entity, having been completely wiped off Europe’s map after the Second Balkan War and incorporated by its neighbours. The existence of a ‘Macedonian’ language is questioned by other Slavic countries, and so is the existence of a ‘Macedonian’ ethnicity. Even the independence of the ‘Macedonian’ Orthodox Church is not consensually accepted. Against this background, it is clear that the recognition of its constitutional name has for “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” a crucial meaning: it would be the recognition of its international legitimacy as a state and a nation with its own language and heritage. Internally, recognition of the country’s constitutional name would help to consolidate its national identity. It must also be stressed that, during my visit, both ethnic Macedonian and ethnic Albanian members of parliament expressed the same views on the name issue.

Greek opposition to use of the constitutional name is artificial, and motivated by a desire to deny the existence of a Macedonian minority in Greece.
The basic point is that every country is entitled to the name it chooses. Greece never opposed use of the name ‘Macedonia’, when the latter was one of the six federal entities that made up Yugoslavia (1944-1991) – but the problem arose when it became independent. This change of attitude is disappointing since Greece, as the new state’s neighbour, should have been one of the first to recognise it; on the other hand, it may reflect a simple refusal to recognise the existence of a ‘Macedonian’ nation, and thus the presence of a ‘Macedonian’ minority on Greek territory. This is why Greece rejects the constitutional name – which expresses nationality – but would be prepared to accept a geographical name, such as ‘Upper Macedonia’.This is also the position of the “Rainbow Party” in Greece, which claims to represent the interests of the country’s ‘Macedonian’ minority. This party - which decided not to take part in the last parliamentary elections, and which in the previous ones obtained only marginal support - stresses that the concept of “nation” promoted for centuries by the Greek state sees today’s Greeks as an ethnically homogeneous nation, and Ancient Greece’s only descendants. It claims that, shortly after “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” became independent, the Greek authorities started renaming ministries (the Ministry of Northern Greece became the ‘Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace’), airports (Thessaloniki Airport became ‘Thessaloniki-Macedonia’ Airport), etc, in order to strengthen the idea that use of the name “Macedonia” was a Greek monopoly. In fact, there is documentary proof that there was a “Macedonian” language in Greece – and thus a community which spoke it – even before 1945.Moreover, the Skopje authorities dismiss fears that recognising the country by its constitutional name might legitimise territorial claims as groundless: this has not only been ruled out by the various amendments to the Constitution, but also runs contrary to the foreign policy of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, which aims at integration within the Euro-Atlantic structures in a peaceful and co-operative spirit. According to Skopje, even the Badinter Commission acknowledged that no hostile intent underlay the choice of the constitutional name.

Use of a reference or acronym is offensive.
Skopje argues that using a provisional reference to denote a sovereign state or, even worse, the acronym FYROM or fYROM is disrespectful.

Like it is known in the international affairs, every state is free to choose the name it wishes. The exercise of the state's right to choose its name, as with any right in general, must not, however, impede the rights of other states or be accomplished for a purpose other than that for which the right was established for and be to the detriment of another state [2]. The prohibition of the abusive exercise of a right is a general principle of justice, which is repeatedly reiterated in international jurisdiction practice and is superior among the rules which govern the exercise of rights of those subject to international justice.

In regards to the specific issue, international practice shows clearly and undoubtedly that the right of states to choose names or symbols may be limited when, owing to these names or symbols, international peace and security is placed in danger. In any case, it is known that the threat against peace is not necessarily linked to the use of violence, but can even be manifested with acts which in the first place clash with international law [3].

FYROM Slavs(leadership and people) need to understand that stability can not be built on irredentism. This is very basic for the return of the whole region into development orbit. At the same time the USA should stop taking advantage of disputes that destabilize the region. These are the fundamental components of a real stabilizing activism.

As the Athens Academy and Senate pointed out (1992):It [FYROM] does not have the right to acquire, by international recognition, an advantage enjoyed by no other state in the world: to use a name which of itself propagandizes territorial aspirations.

Professor Zaikos [4] quoted that in this specific case, the stance of the United Nations and of the European Union show that the insistence of Greece that the choosing of a state's name can comprise a form of aggression is not without grounds. Consequentially, the theoretical probability that the choice of a name by a state be considered as hostile propaganda against a neighbouring state, given that that name conceals territorial claims, has been recongised.

From this point of view, it is widely known that in FYROM maps have been repeatedly published which modify international borders, thereby portraying that state with expanded geographical and ethnic frontiers which include supposedly unredeemed territories in Greece. It is evident that the maps do not merely aim at geograhical information but at altering the frontiers of territorial sovereignty of states and can constitute an attempt at claiming sovereignty under international law.

FYROM's terminology--"Aegean Macedonia"--for Greek Macedonia and the so call repression of "the Macedonians in Greece" without qualification, which not only generates confusion but also gives the impression that members of this small minority constitute the only or true Macedonians in the region. As Loring Danforth point out [5] the usage of the «Aegean Macedonia» is regarded as a non-recognition of current European borders, including the legitimacy of Greek sovereignty over the area.

Accepting or propagating the FYROM-Macedonian vocabulary and statistics, outside time, space, and context, not distinguishing between cultural repression, on the one hand, and defense against subversion of territorial integrity, on the other, it has some value but only in an eyewitness, candid-camera, raw-news kind of way.

115 members of the U.S. Congress, from both parties, support House Resolution 356, expressing the "sense of the House of Representatives that FYROM should stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece, and should work with the United Nations and Greece to find a mutually acceptable official name".

A similar resolution, S.R. 300, was introduced in the Senate by Senators Robert Menendez, Barrack Obama and Olympia Snowe [6] urges the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to

  • observe its obligations under Article 7 of the 1995 United Nations-brokered Interim Accord, which directs the parties to `promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by state-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility' and review the contents of textbooks, maps, and teaching aids to ensure that such tools are stating accurate information; and
  • work with Greece within the framework of the United Nations process to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals by reaching a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.

According to international regulations, the name of FYROM is being referred in six official languages of the resolution of the United Nations, among the "names of independent states which are generally recognised by the international community", as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". As a result, the statement of the FYROM delegations that the name 'FYROM', "is a result of Resolution 817 of the Security Council" and that "it is not the real name of the country", besides constituting a direct violation of the Interim Accord, are not accepted by the international bodies. According to international regulations, FYROM is not exempted from its obligation to choose a name after negotiations and agreement with Greece.

FYROM Slavmacedonians(leadership and people) need to understand that international recognition by no means necessarily endows a state with legitimacy, especially when the recognition has been granted in such an impetuous manner in the midst of a crisis and if legitimacy is held to have any connection with a common history and a sense of common destiny as characteristics of the state's population, without which no state can survive.

Greece has called upon FYROM's leadership to act responsibly and show political courage and meet Greece half way. It will be a responsible move on the part of an aspiring candidate, a move that will win them a European future, a future of stability, peace and economic prosperity, based on the principles upon which NATO and the European Union are founded.

NOTES
[1] - Use of the provisional reference “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” at the Council of Europe, Doc. 11524, 8 February 2008
[2] - Α. Kiss, «Abuse of rights», Encyclopedia of Public International Law, Volume I, 1992, a. 4.
[3] -Η. Neuhold, «Peace, Threat to», Encyclopedia of Public International Law, Vol. Ill, a. 936.
[4]Nikos Zaikos in «MacedonianIdentities».
[5] - The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Loring M. Danforth, p. 37
[6] - http://www.hancusa.net/content/view/302/35/
 
written by me, a Macedonian from Greece


Edited by akritas - 15-Jan-2009 at 18:47
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 19:10
Talking of the 'ancient kingdom of Macedonia' is incorrect English, or at least a modern corruption. The ancient kingdom involved is/was correctly called - in English - Macedon.
 
I don't see any reason at all why the people of any other country should try and tell the English what they should call anyone.
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 01:00
Guys i have to tell you,mark my words.
FYROM will never accept the Northern Macedonia sugestion.

I know it sounds fair and the best option,but by accepting northern Macedonia they accept that Macedonia is Greek and part of the Greek cultural heritage.The tables will be turned and it will be then Greece that will be theoricaly right in claiming the northern Macedonia.

As for the ancestor-decendant thing,none of the two populations can claim exlusive right,the ancient Macedonians naturaly have been absorbed by the local populations ,but who is what ,who knows.


The funy thing is that Greeks tend to take pride in the glorious past of ancient Greece as if it was their fathers or grandfathers,when in fact it was just an civilisation of thousends of years ago that happened to have blossomed in the territory where today is the modern state of Greece.
For the Greeks to be angry though that slavic macedonians claim historical heritage from ancient macedonians is normal and natural.
Nothing can be more ridicoulous then to claim that Alex the great spoke bulgarian is a historical fact.
On the other hand the Greeks speak a language of the land.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 01:21
They would if Greece accepted S. Macedonia for its province. 

Either way this is getting to be as childish as ever. The thought of Macedonia invading anyone is funny at best. 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 13:01
Originally posted by es_bih

They would if Greece accepted S. Macedonia for its province. 

Either way this is getting to be as childish as ever. The thought of Macedonia invading anyone is funny at best. 
A Macedonian according to several sources [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Macedonian][ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/macedonian] is a native or inhabitant of the (Ancient or Modern) Macedonian region.
 
The use of the Macedonian name as a state appellation in no way confers the right to appropriate everything and anything derived from or pertained to the entire region of Macedonia. This needs to be legally clarified and remain binding erga omnes. The state name needs specifically to refer to and describe the present region of FYROM. It should apply erga omnes in multilateral and bilateral international relations and transactions and should be observed by all organizations, states, and other non-governmental international organizations, including the government and the agencies of FYROM. As Kofos said [http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2009/04/current-macedonian-issue-between-athens.html] Greek and FYROM parties should accept the name used by the inhabitants of FYROM for their region of geographical Macedonia, i.e. Vardar Macedonia, or preferably Vardar Makedonija.
 
It is therefore clear that the appropriation of the name Macedonia(English derivation) by the FYROM, on which they have based all their propaganda and even their national existence, does not even correspond to their own false national identity since their artificially created state does not have any national homogeneity. This appropriation of the Macedonian name goes against every principle of justice and conceals other expediencies which directly insult Greek national and Macedonian Cultural Identities as shows the unchanging nature of their continuous propaganda.
 
I am a Macedonian, however I am in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; I am instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM. This is a rape of my identity and a continuing cultural genocide.
 
Antony D. Smith[NationaL Identity, Oxford,1991 ] remarks that there are two main kinds of ethnic extinction in the full sense:
genocide and ethnocide, which is sometimes - at times misleadingly — called «cultural genocide». In one sense genocide is a rare and probably modern phenomenon. It includes those cases where we know that mass death of a cultural group was premeditated and the basis of that targeting was exclusively the existence and membership of that cultural group.
 
Greek Macedonian identity is under «cultural genocide» because there is considerable confusion and ambiguity over the derivatives of that name; more specifically, the noun Macedonians and the adjective Macedonian in their ethnic, regional, cultural, historical and legal (citizenship) variants
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