Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Polynesians in the Americas?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polynesians in the Americas?
    Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 09:13

Much evidence already indicates Polynesia-America contacts. A recent peer-reviewed paper ( see abstract below) may provide an additional line of evidence. 

Abstract

In 2007 the discovery of pre-Columbian chicken bones from Chile provided the first conclusive evidence for prehistoric Polynesian contact with South America. When looking for further commensal data to address the issue of trans-Pacific contacts, we found a museum collection of human remains recovered from Mocha Island, a small island located approximately 30 km off the Chilean coast. The morphology of the crania suggests they may be of Polynesian ancestry. Here we present craniometric analyses for the six complete crania from Mocha Island, Chile and discuss the implications for further research into prehistoric trans-Pacific interaction.

 

Matisoo-Smith EA, and Ramirez J-M. 2009.” Human Skeletal Evidence of Polynesian Presence in South America?” Metric Analyses of Six Crania from Mocha Island, Chile. Journal of Pacific Archaeology, Vol 1, No 1 (2010)
 
 


Edited by Sander - 01-Jun-2010 at 14:45
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 20:22
Actually, the Americans to Polynesia is a thesis sustained by a legend about a massive migration by Tupac Yupanqui (The Inca equivalent of Julius Caesar)
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 19:50

Before this thread diverts … Stay on topic, guys.  That is  Polynesians to America, not vice versa  or discussions about   Thor or Balsa rafts.

 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 19:43
Originally posted by Spey

... 
   Thor Heyerdah had just about everything wrong that could be got wrong on this one .
 
Wrong people doing the voyaging .
Wrong materials to use to build the vessel .
Wrong style of vessel.
Wrong voyaging direction .
 
  Need I go on ?
 
You do realise that his raft was towed out to sea at the beginning of his voyage , and that it crashed onto a rock and broke up at the end of the voyage don't you .
 
So , the end result is that  Thor Heyerdah did not sail from the land of South America , to the Land of Easter Island .
 
 And that is , as you say ,  able to be remarked about LOL
 
Heyerdahl was a very fantasious man, dreaming on transoceanic trips that never happened.
 
His only heritage that is worst to take seriously are his studies about the balsa rafts of South America. Today it is known those rafts really existed but they didn't go to Polynesia. Instead, they followed a regular route from Colombia to Central America following the Pacific coast.
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 19:27
Welcome to AE,  Opuslola and Spey Big smile
 
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear fellows,

Maybe I missed it, but in my speed reading of all of the previous posts, I failed to find any mention of "Aku Aku" or any other published works of a great (if not misplaced) explorer named Thor Heyerdahl! How any of you could continue a discussion of this extent and not mention his contribution(s) is remarkable!
 
He  does not fit very well in this topic  ( Polynesians in the Americas) since he favored America to Polynesia voyages above Polynesia to America voyages. 
 
Thor might have been wrong on many points and right on others, as is the case with most pioneers .  But he was a great and daring explorer  Clap  
Back to Top
Spey View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary

suspended

Joined: 31-Jul-2005
Location: Te Vahi'Pounamu
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22 		  Quote Spey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 14:05
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear fellows,

Maybe I missed it, but in my speed reading of all of the previous posts, I failed to find any mention of "Aku Aku" or any other published works of a great (if not misplaced) explorer named Thor Heyerdahl! How any of you could continue a discussion of this extent and not mention his contribution(s) is remarkable!
 
   Thor Heyerdah had just about everything wrong that could be got wrong on this one .
 
Wrong people doing the voyaging .
Wrong materials to use to build the vessel .
Wrong style of vessel.
Wrong voyaging direction .
 
  Need I go on ?
 
You do realise that his raft was towed out to sea at the beginning of his voyage , and that it crashed onto a rock and broke up at the end of the voyage don't you .
 
So , the end result is that  Thor Heyerdah did not sail from the land of South America , to the Land of Easter Island .
 
 And that is , as you say ,  able to be remarked about LOL
 
 
   
     
 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 13:13
Dear fellows,

Maybe I missed it, but in my speed reading of all of the previous posts, I failed to find any mention of "Aku Aku" or any other published works of a great (if not misplaced) explorer named Thor Heyerdahl! How any of you could continue a discussion of this extent and not mention his contribution(s) is remarkable!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Spey View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary

suspended

Joined: 31-Jul-2005
Location: Te Vahi'Pounamu
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22 		  Quote Spey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 12:47
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Spey

I have  noticed   in a post or two , mention of the difficulty of Polynesians  sailing between Easter island , and the Americas and back .
Reasons given as  too far ,  too difficult , lack of provisioning points,  etc. 
In regards to trips from Polynesia to Easter Island to Peru, the following questions should be considered:
1.) What were exploration minded, "optimal" Polynesians capable of doing using high quality voyaging canoes and highly skilled navigators?
2.) To what extent did the various Polynesian islands lose, and perhaps regain only to lose again, the exploring interest, the navigation skills and the ability to construct true voyaging canoes?
 
Jared Diamond states that canoe building skills and raw materials were perishable and that some, or perhaps many polynesian islands became stranded once once the canoes stopped coming. These societies collapsed and were no longer making day trips, let alone voyages. In the end, I think that a small number of trips to Peru were made, but these trips soon stopped.
Originally posted by Spey

.
 I worked on the building of one 30 years ago .
I know a few of the  navigators  and I know that it was done .
 
  Rapa Niu to Great Turtle Island ?  , no sweat .   Tahiti to Peru  , its on .
Keep your ears open for the news. 
 
That is very interestingSmile. Please tell more about these experiences and coming voyages.
 
 
For the answers to you first two questions , Google is your friend LOL
 
For the answer to the third ,
 visit  one of mine , who is building the second Hawaikinui . I worked with him , briefly, on the first , the waka that is now in the Tahiti museum Big smile
 
 
 
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 06:08
Originally posted by Spey

I have  noticed   in a post or two , mention of the difficulty of Polynesians  sailing between Easter island , and the Americas and back .
Reasons given as  too far ,  too difficult , lack of provisioning points,  etc. 
In regards to trips from Polynesia to Easter Island to Peru, the following questions should be considered:
1.) What were exploration minded, "optimal" Polynesians capable of doing using high quality voyaging canoes and highly skilled navigators?
2.) To what extent did the various Polynesian islands lose, and perhaps regain only to lose again, the exploring interest, the navigation skills and the ability to construct true voyaging canoes?
 
Jared Diamond states that canoe building skills and raw materials were perishable and that some, or perhaps many polynesian islands became stranded once once the canoes stopped coming. These societies collapsed and were no longer making day trips, let alone voyages. In the end, I think that a small number of trips to Peru were made, but these trips soon stopped.
Originally posted by Spey

.
 I worked on the building of one 30 years ago .
I know a few of the  navigators  and I know that it was done .
 
  Rapa Niu to Great Turtle Island ?  , no sweat .   Tahiti to Peru  , its on .
Keep your ears open for the news. 
 
That is very interestingSmile. Please tell more about these experiences and coming voyages.


Edited by Cryptic - 30-Sep-2009 at 06:27
Back to Top
Spey View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary

suspended

Joined: 31-Jul-2005
Location: Te Vahi'Pounamu
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22 		  Quote Spey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2009 at 02:05
I have  noticed   in a post or two , mention of the difficulty of Polynesians  sailing between Easter island , and the Americas and back .
Reasons given as  too far ,  too difficult , lack of provisioning points,  etc.
 
  The distance between  Tahiti ,and New Zealand is about the same 4000 Ks . That voyage is a mere 20 or so  days , non stop , and it has been done countless times .
  Many of the trips have been in the last 30 years  with  Polynesian voyaging waka , and star navigation .
 I worked on the building of one 30 years ago .
I know a few of the  navigators  and I know that it was done .
 
  Rapa Niu to Great Turtle Island ?  , no sweat .   Tahiti to Peru  , its on .
Keep your ears open for the news. 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2009 at 16:47
 
A few postings back Pinguin claimed that the kumara ( sweet potato ) cultivation is not established to be pre-columbian in Polynesia, or unsure. I doubt that anybody believes that fiction. Througout Polynesia ( Hawaii, New Zealand etc ) kumara remains have been carbon dated to pre columbian times.  c14 dates from Mangaia , Cook islands are 900-1000 AD.
 
About the Chumash in California. They were not Polynesians but Klar and Jones have provided archaeological  and linguistic evidence  for Hawaii-California contacts in a peer reviewed paper ( American Antiquity ). The conclusion is  that Polynesian contact with the coast is the best explanation for the sewnplanktechnology and related loanwords among the chumash.

 

For some reading :

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/20/MNG9GDBBLG1.DTL

 



Edited by Sander - 29-Jul-2009 at 17:51
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by Cryptic

Eagle Cap,


Your friend had a great job.  I lived in San Diego for about seven years and developed an interest in California indians. Please ask your friend about this possibility. I am very interested in the subject, but have only read one brief reference to it. I can't find anymore information or informed opinions. 

 

Also could you check on one more rumor?  One of my co-workers had a "wierd" brother who spent alot of time in the hills west of Bakersfield and also liked to tell stories. Evidently, he liked looking for previously unknown Native American sites, collecting token souveniers but left most of the artifacts undisturbed as "special places" that only he knew about.

 

Anyways, he told his brother that he had contacted a band f indians that had chosen to live a completely isolated, pre contact traditional lifestyle in the hills up until the 1970s. They had eluded detection by everyone but him and have since joined mainstream society. Has your friend ever heard anything along these lines. Maybe the guy was basing his story on fact and just exagerrating how isolated they were?

 

P.S. If you are interested in California tribes and bands,  take a look at this site.  Many of the skills, techniques etc. are California centered.



He was the Enviromental Planner for the city of Simi Valley, California but he is now retired. I enjoyed hiking with him because he knew so much about the Native plants, wildlife and the native Americans of the area. He could spot an artifact that most people would just think was a rock. I know he taught at the university in Santa Barbara and has two PHDs but I am not sure in what. I have to call him and ask about the mysterious broken and worn sea shells I have found in the Arizona desert. I also found what could be a hide scrapper and a stone that was worked on.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 16:00

Eagle Cap,

Your friend had a great job.  I lived in San Diego for about seven years and developed an interest in California indians. Please ask your friend about this possibility. I am very interested in the subject, but have only read one brief reference to it. I can't find anymore information or informed opinions. 
 
Also could you check on one more rumor?  One of my co-workers had a "wierd" brother who spent alot of time in the hills west of Bakersfield and also liked to tell stories. Evidently, he liked looking for previously unknown Native American sites, collecting token souveniers but left most of the artifacts undisturbed as "special places" that only he knew about.
 
Anyways, he told his brother that he had contacted a band f indians that had chosen to live a completely isolated, pre contact traditional lifestyle in the hills up until the 1970s. They had eluded detection by everyone but him and have since joined mainstream society. Has your friend ever heard anything along these lines. Maybe the guy was basing his story on fact and just exagerrating how isolated they were?
 
P.S. If you are interested in California tribes and bands,  take a look at this site.  Many of the skills, techniques etc. are California centered.


Edited by Cryptic - 16-Jan-2009 at 17:01
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 23:13
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by eaglecap

Unlike most Native Americans the Chumash men had beards. My friend who is an expert on the anthropology and archaeology of the area said that theory had been thrown out but who knows-??

Maybe the Chumash were not Polynesians, but Australoids (at least some bands).  Spanish priests described some southeren California indian bands as having australoid physical characteristics.  This could include beards. These bands of possible australoids, however, either went extinct or were absorbed by other tribes following the Spanish contact.

 

Could you ask your  friend about this possibility?  New world groups of Australoids would be very rare, if they even existed at all.


That sounds like an interesting theory! The few Chumash left alive are very mixed with white or Hispanic. I will ask my friend in California the next time I call him. Part of his job was to identify, excavate and catalog native American sites in Ventura Co before the developers could destroy it. The developers could not touch the site until his work was completed, probably had a deadline though. I have seen some early pictures of them and they do not look australoid though but no doubt they would have mixed with other tribes over the centuries. They really look like other native Americans but with beards.

Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 22:15
Originally posted by eaglecap

Unlike most Native Americans the Chumash men had beards. My friend who is an expert on the anthropology and archaeology of the area said that theory had been thrown out but who knows-??
Maybe the Chumash were not Polynesians, but Australoids (at least some bands).  Spanish priests described some southeren California indian bands as having australoid physical characteristics.  This could include beards. These bands of possible australoids, however, either went extinct or were absorbed by other tribes following the Spanish contact.
 
Could you ask your  friend about this possibility?  New world groups of Australoids would be very rare, if they even existed at all.
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 19:13
Nice pics- I am not sure about south America but there has been speculation about a tribe in southern California, we call the Chumash, some believe had Polynesian roots. Unlike most Native Americans the Chumash men had beards. My friend who is an expert on the anthropology and archaeology of the area said that theory had been thrown out but who knows-??
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
dud View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jan-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 19 		  Quote dud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 16:31

The Polynesians would have had a considerably greater difficulty reaching the southern coast of South America than making their usual island to island voyages. They would have needed to sail from Easter Island all the way to the Americas without any islands to resupply at, a trip bigger than any other they had ever made in cold weather which I doubt they had ever experienced.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 03:07
Actually, I agree with you. I don't really believe Easter Islanders or other Polynesians reached the Americas. However, I just wanted to show all the evidence that exist in this case.
 
For me, most of the evidence are just coincidences or wishful thinking. The chicken bones thing is more interesting but, are we sure things are really as they sound? Let's see if other chicken bones are found beside that one, at the very least.
 


Edited by pinguin - 17-Dec-2008 at 03:09
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 02:22

I'm not sure what to make of the idea. The chicken bone evidence seems like the best that there is, but if that's the best of it ... I'm not certain it's on very solid ground. 

As far as the hockey, alot of groups play a similar sport. The Irish have Hurling, and Eastern Woodlands (northeast USA, eastern Canada) native groups had Lacrosse - the latter obviously weren't in contact with Chilean groups and I'm not sure that the sport bridges the cultures between Chile and the Eastern Woodlands, they seem to be independant innovations. In any case, its not unique and a similar sport is played by widely separate groups who were not in contact. As you point out, I'm not sure the Polynesians were among these groups!

I see no relationship between the watercraft at all. Fishing techniques such as enclosures are also practiced by many Old World cultures. Word resemblances can be found worldwide, you could probably draw a link between Inuit and Zulu if you wanted to that way. I don't know enough about cooking techniques of premodern cultures to really say if that connection is unusual or not, but I suspect the technique is probably not that unique.

I'll admit the chicken bones are intriguing, but I've seen evidence like this turn out to be not quite what it seems before ...
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:37
Chiloe's (Chile) sewn-plank canoe, called "dalcas":
 
Dalca%20de%20tres%20tablas
 
 
 
 
 
 
A dalca is not really a canoe, but a boat. Most native americans used trunk canoes, that were made of a single trunk; although sometimes of huge proportions, as in the Caribbean sea. Chiloe's dalcas were made of three planks linked together with ropes, and they were used to travel the island of the Chiloe zone and even to hunt whales.
 
Chiloe is a region of sailors, and the tesis of contact pretends that influence cames from polynesia
 
Post-contact Chiloe ships:
 
 
 
There is even a town in Chiloe called "dalcahue", which means "port of dalcas". A names that carries since pre-columbian times
 
 
This map explain why people of Chiloe needed to be good sailors since prehistory. it is an archipelago surrounded by sea
 
 
 
 
Polynesian navigators used mainly the catamaran:
 
 
And the canoe
 
 
It is not clear, though there is any similarity in the shipbuilding techniques. It is clear though polynesian were more advanced in shipbuilding.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 13-Dec-2008 at 13:59
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.055 seconds.