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Polynesians in the Americas? |
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 Topic: Polynesians in the Americas?Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 15:07 |
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Austronesian speaking peoples came from places like Formosa and large regions of South Asia down to Indonesia circa 3.000 years ago. From there they spread among the seas in all directions. To the West, they become the best sailors of Asia where Indonesian and Javanese sailors made the routes from Indonesia to India and Arabia with regularity. Very early in history they reached Madagascar that was colonized by them, giving birth to the Malgache culture. A culture that influenced Africa with several cultural patterns, like the consumption of the banana and musical instruments like the marimba.Another branches of these people spread east, across the Pacific, colonizing amost all theirs islands during a period that start about 500 BC up to circa 1000 A.D., a time when they had colonized Fuji, Hawaii, New Zealand, Easter Island and all other polynesian island. Since long time ago, there have been discussed if Polynesians reached the Americas or not.
Today there is not a definitive evidence of its presence. However, there are many clues that point to theirs contact to the Americas. If this contact ever happened, it didn't influenced major cultures in the Americas at all. There isn't any evidence among the advanced peoples of Peru or Mexico of the presence of the Americas at all, so pretending to show "Polynesians as teachers" is non-sense. In fact, the material culture of Polynesians was simpler than the one of the highest cultures of the Americas.
However, I know a people that may have been in contact with Polynesians, that lived very far away from the centers of high culture of the America: the Mapuches.
In the southern regions of Chile, among Mapuches and particularly a subgroup called Huilliches of Chiloe, there are some material evidence of probable Polynesian visits.
I going to describe the evidence in further posts. However, to start, let's analyze it:
General evidence:
(1) There is not genetical evidence in the Americas of the presence of Polynesians. That could just mean visitors weren't very numerous at all. That's logical given the fact the population of Polynesia was very small.
(2) The presence of the American sweet potato in Polynesia is still a source of controversy, because there is not certainty that arrived there before or after contact.
The evidence comming from Mapuche lands:
(1) The Mapuche was a single people in the Americas that had chickens. There is some evidence that the two races of Mapuche Chickens (Araucarians) have lived in the Americas in pre-Columbian times. The closest genetical relatives of these chickens seem to be the Polynesians.
(2) The curanto, it is a Huilliche custom of cooking in underground stone ovens. They are basically the same way of cooking polynesians use.
(3) There are some clues that Polynesian techniques may have influenced the manufacture of dalcas, or Huilliche canoes. There aren't many studies on the topic, tough.
That's what's known so far. In my opinion, there still don't exist a final archaeological evidence. However, knowing Polynesians were the greatest sailors of ancient times.
Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2008 at 01:17 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 00:36 |
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Giving there are no oppinions as yet, let's put first information about the Araucanian chicken.
 Observe the color of the eggs: they are blue and green.
Araucanian chicken lacks tail
 And it has weird earings
 Araucanian roaster
 Well, the novelty is that this race of chicken is suposedly related to Polynesian, and bones of them has been dated centuries before Columbus.
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Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 01:47 |
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The supossed proof of contact comes from Chicken bones. Now, as ridiculous as may sound, it is indeed a very serious evidence, to take into account.
A fragment of the article, pointing to a theorical contact during the 14th century:
"DNA in bone
The chicken bones were discovered at an archaeological site called El Arenal, on the south coast of Chile, alongside other materials belonging to the indigenous population. While chickens aren’t native to the region, it was believed the local Araucana species found there now was brought to the Americas by Spanish settlers around 1500. Tests on the bones, however, now indicate the birds arrived well before any European made landfall in South America, Matisoo-Smith and her colleague Alice Storey found. “We had the chicken bone directly dated by radio carbon. The calibrated date was clearly prior to 1492,” Matisoo-Smith told LiveScience, noting that it could have ranged anywhere from 1304 to 1424. “This also fits with the other dates obtained from the site (on other materials), and it fits with the cultural period of the site.” Acording to the article, the chickes could have come from anywhere in Polynesia. However, Easter Island is at half the distance to Chile than any other island of the Pacific. Curiously, the Easter Island palm tree, basic to make the Polynesian catamarans, got extinct by the time those chicken bone were found in Chile True or false? Perhaps. More evidence is needed, though.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 10:44 |
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Doesn't look as if people are queuing up to argue with you, pinguin. And I'm certainly not. I don't see any great reason why Polynesians couldn't have reached the Americas - as these kind of theories go it's probably the least unlikely. |
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Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 11:33 |
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Well, perhaps the reason is that people has too much imagination. Besides. the idea is part of the "mainstream" popular thinking. I remember how much opposition arose the topic of pre-Columbian Americans in Europe, and it is understandable: the idea went against the establishment. However, if you compare both situations, there is more evidence of people of the Americas reaching Europe that of Polynesians landing in the Americas. In the late case, I it ever happened, it is like the time erased every single step.
In my case, as a Chilean, I know pretty well the trip from Easter Island to the Araucanian lands is not an easy trip at all. Besides, I know there aren't traditions of contact at any end of the path.
What exist is just curiosities.
I am not convinced as yet if such contact really happened, although I know it may have happened. Polynesians were the greatest sailors up to the Age of Discovery.
Well, no matter there is not much participation as yet, I will put a little more evidence before to let this thread to die.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 14:58 |
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Are the American tribes you talk of still located in the same areas they were, say, 700 years ago? I'm thinking of whether that would make the trip easier or harder.
The main thing here is that we know the Polynesians were great sailors and uncanny navigators. Nothing they might have done would actually surprise me.
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Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 23:12 |
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Yes. But it depends on what you call "tribe". The Mapuche people wasn't a single tribe but more like a set of clanes like existed in Scotland in ancient times. Mapuches lived from Central Chile to the beginning of the Patagonia and from the Pacific coast to most of the Argentinean Pampas, in a region larger than many European coutries, and all those people had a network of friendship all over the territory. Mapuches practised agriculture, so they were relatively sedentary, and had a population that still is important today, after centuries of admitures.
Today, there are still Mapuche countrypeople in some of the possible sites of contact with Polynesians, but that culture today has changed too much. As far as I know, at least, there isn't any tradition among all the Mapuche, modern or ancient, that tell us about Polynesian contacts.
What I do know is there are certain Chilean folkloric traditions, rooted in the Mapuche culture, that resemble similar custums in Polynisia. The main is the tradition of the curanto that's to cook in underground stone stoves.
Just compare:
Curanto Huilliche (southern Mapuches):
  Polynesian Umu in Easter Island
  Both traditions of cooking are similar.
Edited by pinguin - 11-Dec-2008 at 23:16 |
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Posted: 12-Dec-2008 at 00:11 |
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Didn't the Mapuche actually expand their territory after the arrival of the Spanish? They could have caused other cultures that have been in contact with the Polynesians to disappear. In any case I agree with Graham, of all the precolumbian contact theories the Polynesians are by far the most likely candidates (after the Vikings, Inuit and arguably the Na-Dené of course). It may be true that the voyage from Easter Island to South America is a difficult one, but then so is the one from French Polynesia to Easter Island (that one is a lot more difficult actually, it's a lot harder to hit a small island than a vast continent). It is also true though that if the Polynesians reached South America that must have been pretty late, in the 14th of 15th century or so, so they definately didn't leave a big legacy. |
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Posted: 12-Dec-2008 at 01:51 |
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The Mapuche territory shrank when Spaniards arrived, and they didn't invaded other peoples territories. The Mapuche peoples split between the northerners who allied to the Spaniards and the Southerners who resist the Spanish invasion and theirs own brothers of the North. It is curious, but the way natives organized spacially in this part of South America is not the same as in North America at all. Mapuches had modest lifestyles, but they were agriculturalists that had a definite territory and that didn't practised nomadism. Edited by pinguin - 12-Dec-2008 at 01:52 |
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Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:14 |
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Other similarities between both cultures are discussed here. From wiki:
"Polynesian contact with the prehispanic Mapuche culture in central-south Chile has been suggested because of apparently similar cultural traits, including words like toki (stone axes and adzes), hands clubs similar to the Maori wahaika, the sewn-plank canoe as used on Chiloe island, the curanto earth oven (Polynesian umu) common in southern Chile, fishing techniques such as stone wall enclosures, a hockey-like game, and other potential parallels. Some strong westerlies and El Niño wind blow directly from central-east Polynesia to the Mapuche region, between Concepcion and Chiloe. A direct connection from New Zealand is possible, sailing with the "roaring forties". In 1834, some escapees from Tasmania arrived at Chiloe Island after sailing for 43 days."
In the following post we will discuss what they are talking about
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Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:21 |
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Mapuche toqui stones:
 
Maori Wahaika:
  To be sincere, I don't find any similarity at all between both families of objects.
The case of curanto-umu was discussed above.
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Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:33 |
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Supposed "hockey" connection. Mapuche palin:    I haven't found references to a supposed sport of hockey among polynesians, though.
If someone has a refference, please show.
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Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 13:37 |
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Chiloe's (Chile) sewn-plank canoe, called "dalcas":
      A dalca is not really a canoe, but a boat. Most native americans used trunk canoes, that were made of a single trunk; although sometimes of huge proportions, as in the Caribbean sea. Chiloe's dalcas were made of three planks linked together with ropes, and they were used to travel the island of the Chiloe zone and even to hunt whales.
Chiloe is a region of sailors, and the tesis of contact pretends that influence cames from polynesia
Post-contact Chiloe ships:
  There is even a town in Chiloe called "dalcahue", which means "port of dalcas". A names that carries since pre-columbian times
  This map explain why people of Chiloe needed to be good sailors since prehistory. it is an archipelago surrounded by sea
  Polynesian navigators used mainly the catamaran:
 And the canoe
 It is not clear, though there is any similarity in the shipbuilding techniques. It is clear though polynesian were more advanced in shipbuilding.
Edited by pinguin - 13-Dec-2008 at 13:59 |
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edgewaters
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Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 02:22 |
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I'm not sure what to make of the idea. The chicken bone evidence seems like the best that there is, but if that's the best of it ... I'm not certain it's on very solid ground. As far as the hockey, alot of groups play a similar sport. The Irish have Hurling, and Eastern Woodlands (northeast USA, eastern Canada) native groups had Lacrosse - the latter obviously weren't in contact with Chilean groups and I'm not sure that the sport bridges the cultures between Chile and the Eastern Woodlands, they seem to be independant innovations. In any case, its not unique and a similar sport is played by widely separate groups who were not in contact. As you point out, I'm not sure the Polynesians were among these groups! I see no relationship between the watercraft at all. Fishing techniques such as enclosures are also practiced by many Old World cultures. Word resemblances can be found worldwide, you could probably draw a link between Inuit and Zulu if you wanted to that way. I don't know enough about cooking techniques of premodern cultures to really say if that connection is unusual or not, but I suspect the technique is probably not that unique. I'll admit the chicken bones are intriguing, but I've seen evidence like this turn out to be not quite what it seems before ... |
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Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 03:07 |
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Actually, I agree with you. I don't really believe Easter Islanders or other Polynesians reached the Americas. However, I just wanted to show all the evidence that exist in this case.
For me, most of the evidence are just coincidences or wishful thinking. The chicken bones thing is more interesting but, are we sure things are really as they sound? Let's see if other chicken bones are found beside that one, at the very least.
Edited by pinguin - 17-Dec-2008 at 03:09 |
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dud
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Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 16:31 |
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The Polynesians would have had a considerably greater difficulty reaching the southern coast of South America than making their usual island to island voyages. They would have needed to sail from Easter Island all the way to the Americas without any islands to resupply at, a trip bigger than any other they had ever made in cold weather which I doubt they had ever experienced. |
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eaglecap
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Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 19:13 |
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Nice pics- I am not sure about south America but there has been speculation about a tribe in southern California, we call the Chumash, some believe had Polynesian roots. Unlike most Native Americans the Chumash men had beards. My friend who is an expert on the anthropology and archaeology of the area said that theory had been thrown out but who knows-??
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Cryptic
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Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 22:15 |
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Maybe the Chumash were not Polynesians, but Australoids (at least some bands). Spanish priests described some southeren California indian bands as having australoid physical characteristics. This could include beards. These bands of possible australoids, however, either went extinct or were absorbed by other tribes following the Spanish contact.
Could you ask your friend about this possibility? New world groups of Australoids would be very rare, if they even existed at all.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 23:13 |
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That sounds like an interesting theory! The few Chumash left alive are very mixed with white or Hispanic. I will ask my friend in California the next time I call him. Part of his job was to identify, excavate and catalog native American sites in Ventura Co before the developers could destroy it. The developers could not touch the site until his work was completed, probably had a deadline though. I have seen some early pictures of them and they do not look australoid though but no doubt they would have mixed with other tribes over the centuries. They really look like other native Americans but with beards. 
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Cryptic
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Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 16:00 |
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Eagle Cap, Your friend had a great job. I lived in San Diego for about seven years and developed an interest in California indians. Please ask your friend about this possibility. I am very interested in the subject, but have only read one brief reference to it. I can't find anymore information or informed opinions.
Also could you check on one more rumor? One of my co-workers had a "wierd" brother who spent alot of time in the hills west of Bakersfield and also liked to tell stories. Evidently, he liked looking for previously unknown Native American sites, collecting token souveniers but left most of the artifacts undisturbed as "special places" that only he knew about.
Anyways, he told his brother that he had contacted a band f indians that had chosen to live a completely isolated, pre contact traditional lifestyle in the hills up until the 1970s. They had eluded detection by everyone but him and have since joined mainstream society. Has your friend ever heard anything along these lines. Maybe the guy was basing his story on fact and just exagerrating how isolated they were?
P.S. If you are interested in California tribes and bands, take a look at this site. Many of the skills, techniques etc. are California centered.
Edited by Cryptic - 16-Jan-2009 at 17:01 |
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