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What if Tamerlane lived long enough to invade China as his plan?

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  Quote oodog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Tamerlane lived long enough to invade China as his plan?
    Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 12:50

To accomplish his plan, Tamerlane would have to beat or conquer the steep folks all the way to China, certainly a hard job. Then he would face the strongest emperor of Ming Dynasty, Zhu Li (Ming Cheng Zu or Yongle Di). Some Chinese friends said he would have his good leg broken too and ass kicked. While some pessimists, on the other hand, said China would be Islamized if it really happen.

What's your opinion?

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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 13:30
Yeah I think Tamerlane had a good chance.
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:30

Yeah he had a really good chance;i mean look at the guy he was the only thing that held an empire together.As he said:" am the scourage of god appointed to chatise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked but i am more wicked than you so be silent!"Even his words smell of power. 

 



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:45
it would certainly be his hardest job ever, but I thihk he would win.  His army had no match at the dawn of the 1400's.  However as soon as he died (like the rest of his empire) his conquests would collapse and there certainly would have been no cultural impact on China.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote oodog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 20:46

My Turkish friends, you may not know much about Yongle Emperor that was ruling China that time. He would be a real match to Tamerlane!

Some info about him:

Between 1405 and 1433 Yongle Emperor strenuously tried to extend China's influence beyond her borders by encouraging other rulers to send ambassadors to China to present tribute. The Chinese armies reconquered Annam and blocked Mongol expansionism, while the Chinese fleet sailed the China seas and the Indian Ocean, cruising as far as the east coast of Africa. The Chinese gained a certain influence over Turkestan. The maritime Asian nations sent envoys with tribute for the Chinese emperor. Internally, the Grand Canal was expanded to its farthest limits and proved to be a stimulus to domestic trade.

The most extraordinary venture, however, during this stage was the dispatch Zheng He's seven naval expeditions, which traversed the Indian Ocean and the Southeast Asian archipelago. An ambitious Muslim eunuch of Mongol descent, a quintessential outsider in the establishment of Confucian scholar elites, Zheng He led seven expeditions from 1405 to 1433 with six of them under the auspices of Yongle, traversing perhaps as far as the Cape of Good Hope. His appointment in 1403 to lead a sea-faring task force was a triumph the commercial lobbies seeking to stimulate conventional trade, not mercantilism. The interests of the commercial lobbies and those of the religious lobbies were also linked. Both offensive of the neo-Confucian sensibilities of the scholarly elite, religious lobbies encouraged commercialism and exploration to divert state funds from the anti-clerical efforts of the Confucian scholar gentry. The first expedition in 1405 consisted of 62 ships and 28,000 men--then the largest naval expedition in history. Zheng He's multi-decked ships carried up to 500 troops but also cargoes of export goods, mainly silks and porcelains, and brought back foreign luxuries such as spices and tropical woods.



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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 23:40
Did he have this invasion planned? if not, then I don't think he thought it would be possible for him to accomplish
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 01:18
he did indeed, in fact he was on the way to China when he died.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 02:24
who is tamerlane?

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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 05:41
He is also know as Timur- Lenk
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 05:45
Lenk means lame
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 06:29
"Timur-E lang" (Persian), "Timur the lame"
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  Quote oodog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 03:33

Originally posted by coolstorm

who is tamerlane?

Please take the reference in The Steppe Empire, a good book on history of Middle Asia.I found an online edition of it (in Chinese, guess you may read it ) http://http://www.shuku.net/novels/zatan/cydglngls/cydg11.ht ml

On my opinion, if Tamerlane's plan were carried out, Supposed he could reach the border of Ming China, his army might win a few battles at north-west China. Then he would meet big troubles near the Great Wall. Even if he could mangaged to break through this line of defence (inevitably in price of great casualty), he would found his army were badly outnumbered by his enemy, who equiped with  the weapon that he had never seen, such as rocky arrows and gun-power bomb. He also had to face lots of defence works that much solider than those he had conquerred in the middle Asia.If he were lucky enough, he might come close to the capital of Ming Dynasty of that time, Nan Jing. To start the siege, he had to cross the thrid largest river of the world, the Yangtse River. Now I think there would be his real headache, the overwhelming fleet of the Ming Navy, something like that Zheng He had led to take on his expedition. Then Tamerlane would slump into dilemma. His come-off wouldn't be good in that situation. 

 

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 04:39

he could never have conquered china as ming was at its height.

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 13:06
Originally posted by coolstorm

he could never have conquered china as ming was at its height.


a day ago you didn't even know him.
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  Quote oodog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 22:50

Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by coolstorm

he could never have conquered china as ming was at its height.


a day ago you didn't even know him.

To be fair, it does not take much time for him to know about the facts and make a judgement.

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  Quote lastbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 23:06
Maybe a part of China, but not China as a whole..
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 23:48

a day ago you didn't even know him.

which proves my point.

he wasn't that much of a threat to the chinese that he's not even mentioned in chinese history books unlike the earlier mongols, jerchens, kitans, tibetans etc...

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 00:13
Originally posted by coolstorm

which proves my point.

he wasn't that much of a threat to the chinese that he's not even mentioned in chinese history books unlike the earlier mongols, jerchens, kitans, tibetans etc...

well... he wasn't mention because he didn't get involved. George Washington was not mentioned in our history either.

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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 00:22

"Maybe a part of China, but not China as a whole.. "

I have to agree there. Sometimes the Chinese would just send tribute if they think it costs less than the war. Considering that both empires are very prosperous and powerful, I think that's what the Chinese would do(I give you this and that if you go away) right when they are in the border. 

 

"he's not even mentioned in chinese history books unlike the earlier mongols, jerchens, kitans, tibetans etc..."

Actually he is. My friend claimed to have read him in a Chinese history book and he's planned invasion of China, which was stopped by his death. But that was a long time ago<like the 1970s-1980s>, maybe they stopped mentioning him now, I don't know.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 00:28

but every chinese knows of george washington, and everyone knows about napolean.

tamerlane is, however, not as well known.

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