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Was there ever a Mother-Goddess society?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was there ever a Mother-Goddess society?
    Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 04:37
Incidentally I was browsing some dialogues of Plato researching for some other thing and I ran into it (Cratylus, for our discussion 403-404 are most relevant):
 
 
Pluto gives wealth (Ploutos), and his name means the giver of wealth, which comes out of the earth beneath. People in general appear to imagine that the term Hades is connected with the invisible (aeides) and so they are led by their fears to call the God Pluto instead.
 
So here you have a coordinate for Hades as god of wealth: Greece (probably Athens), early-mid 4th century BC
 
 
And looking more carefully at Graham's claims I found he said "Romans mixed up...". He's mixed up, if anything LOL
 
And if I'm at re-reading carefully, the Greek word for wealth should be given as ploutos, not plouton (check Liddell Scott and Greek grammar). And by misreading I also over-estimated him when I said he noticed Plouton to be an epithet of the Greek god, because he actually didn't.
 
And one more edit: perhaps it should be also mentioned that Ploutos was another Greek god of (agricultural) wealth, a son of Demeter


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Dec-2008 at 05:06
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by gcle2003

My point is that if 'chthonic' is used both to mean 'associated with the earth' and 'associated with the underworld' it is a confusing usage that masks an important distinction. A word that can refer to both Satan and Demeter is pretty useless from the point of view of religious study, particularly taxonomy.

But Satan isn't really chthonic - the Christian Hell isn't underground, it's just a debased (and therefore lower) existance.

But again you're taking 'chthonic' as though it necessarily related to underground. It refers in common parlance to the underworld, which as you yourself say here is a 'debased (and therefore lower) existence'. Hence Satan is chthonic.
 
I gave dictionary references to that effect earlier. But try for example http://www.yourdictionary.com/chthonic 

chthonic (t̸hänik)

adjective

  1. chthonian
  2. dark, primitive, and mysterious
chthonic Usage Examples
WriteColloDisclaimer();

Modifies a noun

  • power: Masked figures, representing gods, ancestors or chthonic powers may appear to the novices in grotesque, monstrous or beautiful forms.
  • god: It may be remarked in passing that Harlequin is an ancient chthonic god.

or

Main Entry:
chthon·ic &amp;#10;          Listen to the pronunciation of chthonic
Pronunciation:
\ˈthä-nik\
Variant(s):
also chtho·ni·an &amp;#10;          Listen to the pronunciation of chthonian \ˈthō-nē-ən\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Greek chthon-, chthōn earth — more at humble
Date:
1882
: of or relating to the underworld : infernal <chthonic deities>
Or you can just type definitions chthonic into google and see what you get.
The gods that gave rise to the Christian concept of Satan may have been chthonic, but they're not really taxonomically incompatible with Demeter and the rest.
I'm not sure what gods you believe gave rise to Satan, but a contender must be Ahriman, and he is most definitely incompatible with Demeter. Demeter has no connection with the underworld at all, apart from losing her daughter to it half the time.
 
Another contender is probably Baal (or the family of Baals) but there again Satan's main role is as the antagonist: he is only relegated to the underworld once monotheism becomes established, at which point he loses the control over fertility that distinguishes Demeter.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 15:49
Originally posted by gcle2003

Demeter has no connection with the underworld at all, apart from losing her daughter to it half the time.
 
The problem is not only ignorance but also the unwillingness (or the inability) to learn. You were shown in this thread that Demeter was a protector of the dead in her own cult (therefore she's also connected with the underworld). Your unfamiliarity with Greek religion is no excuse.
 
Or you can just type definitions chthonic into google and see what you get.
But we already did, here are some picks from the thread:
- A region, realm, or dwelling place conceived to be below the surface of the earth.
- Greek & Roman Mythology: The world of the dead, located below the world of the living; Hades
- Dwelling in or under the earth.
etc.
 
Insisting on some definitions which are vague or metaphorical (like that "dark, mysterious") is missing the point. In ancient mythologies (in Greek one, too) most underworlds were under the earth. Harlequin is a chthonic character because he inherits other chthonic characters like Hercules. Not because he's dark, primitive or mysterious ...
 
And about what 'common parlance' are you talking about? I provided a large number of texts where 'chthonic' is used with the meaning I claim, you failed to provide a single text to illustrate this usage you claim. I asked you few times already to provide a reference for a 'chthonic' heavenly underworld.

 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Dec-2008 at 16:09
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 16:14
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Incidentally I was browsing some dialogues of Plato researching for some other thing and I ran into it (Cratylus, for our discussion 403-404 are most relevant):
 
 
Pluto gives wealth (Ploutos), and his name means the giver of wealth, which comes out of the earth beneath. People in general appear to imagine that the term Hades is connected with the invisible (aeides) and so they are led by their fears to call the God Pluto instead.
 
So here you have a coordinate for Hades as god of wealth: Greece (probably Athens), early-mid 4th century BC
 
And looking more carefully at Graham's claims I found he said "Romans mixed up...". He's mixed up, if anything LOL
Don't be silly. You asked me to guess, so I guessed. What do you think a 'guess' is?
 
And Plato is well after the emergence of the Roman pantheon.
 
I note incidentally, which you of course failed to point out, that I was right about the origin of Hades (more accurately, Plato agrees with what I said).
And if I'm at re-reading carefully, the Greek word for wealth should be given as ploutos, not plouton (check Liddell Scott and Greek grammar).
No quibble. Why is it important? You misspelt Persephone and got very uptight because I mentioned it.
And by misreading I also over-estimated him when I said he noticed Plouton to be an epithet of the Greek god, because he actually didn't.
 
And one more edit: perhaps it should be also mentioned that Ploutos was another Greek god of (agricultural) wealth, a son of Demeter
That makes sense.
 
And another Pluto (however spelt) was in fact a goddess, mother of Tantalus and offspring of Chronus and Rhea (however spelt) or of Oceanus (however spelt) and Tethys (however spelt). Reading too much into the relationships and attributes of the Greek mythological figures is a confusing pastime, êven for the obsessive collector of such things.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 16:32
Originally posted by gcle2003

Don't be silly. You asked me to guess, so I guessed. What do you think a 'guess' is?
You're the silly one. I asked you to guess, not to expose your ignorance. A "I don't know" is a good enough answer.
 
And Plato is well after the emergence of the Roman pantheon.
 
A ridiculous claim, the Roman pantheon was in the making even in the late Empire.
 
However you erroneously claimed it was a Roman mix up ....
 
I note incidentally, which you of course failed to point out, that I was right about the origin of Hades (more accurately, Plato agrees with what I said).
No, you weren't. You said "The Romans mixed up their existing god of mines with the Greek god of the underworld", but Plato testifies for no mix up, but for two names of the same god, of which one was preferred for obvious reasons.
 
No quibble. Why is it important? You misspelt Persephone and got very uptight because I mentioned it.
I mispelled it (ph and f encode the same sound!) in English because of the other languages I know and read. You misused the word in Greek because of your ignorance on this language. And it is important because in dictionaries you find "go" not "went", you find "dog" not "dogs" or "dog's" (it's hard to show this in English, in inflectional languages it's quite clear if one has clues about that language or if he reproduces verbatim whatever he found in Wikipedias or other similar unthoughtful resources)
 
Reading too much into the relationships and attributes of the Greek mythological figures is a confusing pastime, êven for the obsessive collector of such things.
On the contrary, my ignorant companion, it's not at all confusing (again, it's only your confusion!), it helps understanding. You may seek visual reprsentations (usually vases) of Ploutos and Plouton, you may want to read Greek authors (for Ploutos, Aristophanes would be a good start) and understand this topic you are so stubborn to disturb, even though you're rather illiterate in it.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Dec-2008 at 17:22
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 16:37
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by gcle2003

Demeter has no connection with the underworld at all, apart from losing her daughter to it half the time.
 
The problem is not only ignorance but also the unwillingness (or the inability) to learn. You were shown in this thread that Demeter was a protector of the dead in her own cult (therefore she's also connected with the underworld). Your unfamiliarity with Greek religion is no excuse.
And I pointed out - and you of course simply ignored without replying - that all sorts of divinities in all sorts of religions are prayed too for intercession on behalf of the dead. Demeter's protection is for her initiates: she protects them insofar as she can everywhere. But she has to plead with Hades for them: she doesn't have any powers in the underworld.
 
Zeus has contact with the underworld: he can send people to Tartarus. I'd bet that any devotee of a particular figure would pray to that figure for intercession with Hades. Again, following your type of logic would lead to all divinities being associated with the underworld, if only because it is possible to mention them in the same sentence.
 
Or you can just type definitions chthonic into google and see what you get.
But we already did, here are some picks from the thread:
- A region, realm, or dwelling place conceived to be below the surface of the earth.
- Greek & Roman Mythology: The world of the dead, located below the world of the living; Hades
- Dwelling in or under the earth.
etc.
Somtimes I wonder if you can read. Those are definitions of the underworld. And they are very carefully selected. The commonplace understanding of 'underworld' is where the dead reside and where the powers over the dead and their servants and demons have their abode. SOME people see that as under the earth.
 
Insisting on some definitions which are vague or metaphorical (like that "dark, mysterious") is missing the point.
And so you casually dismiss yet another reputable dictionary (it's from Webster) because it doesn't agree with you. How do you justify this ssumption of superiority over the dictionary compilers? That 'chthonic' has connotations of darkness and mystery (and similar moods) IS the point, it's not missing it.
In ancient mythologies (in Greek one, too) most underworlds were under the earth. Harlequin is a chthonic character because he inherits other chthonic characters like Hercules. Not because he's dark, primitive or mysterious ...
We are discussing the appropriate use of 'chthonic' in modern English, not in ancient Greek (where it isn't even a word, in fact).  That it originally derives from a Greek term meaning 'earth' is immaterial. It may surprise you, but the common English meaning of testes is not 'witnesses': you would, operatinig in your fashion be presumably embarrassed when being asked to produce your witnesses in court.
 
Paper is not papyrus; a table is not a board for writing things on; a skiff is not a ship; a demand is not a request. And so on and so on.
 
And about what 'common parlance' are you talking about? I provided a large number of texts where 'chthonic' is used with the meaning I claim, you failed to provide a single text to illustrate this usage you claim. I asked you few times already to provide a reference for a 'chthonic' heavenly underworld.
And I explained the problem.  I rest with the dictionaries: you yourself have provided several references showing the term has two disctinct meanings. I'm not going to scramble through the works of the likes of Stephen King or H.P.Lovecraft just looking for references for you.
 
Common parlance has a lot more to do with the writings of popular novelists than it has to do with the essays of academics carried away with their little piece of esoteric knowledge of etymology.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 16:59
Originally posted by gcle2003

And I pointed out - and you of course simply ignored without replying - that all sorts of divinities in all sorts of religions are prayed too for intercession on behalf of the dead.
And? If it's a case, such a divinity could be called 'chthonic'.
 
Demeter's protection is for her initiates: she protects them insofar as she can everywhere. But she has to plead with Hades for them: she doesn't have any powers in the underworld.
But of course she has, even the mere fact that she can persuade Hades (though I for the moment I can't think of such a Greek text) is such a power.
 
Zeus has contact with the underworld: he can send people to Tartarus. I'd bet that any devotee of a particular figure would pray to that figure for intercession with Hades. Again, following your type of logic would lead to all divinities being associated with the underworld, if only because it is possible to mention them in the same sentence.
But there was a chthonic Zeus, there was a cult of this chthonic Zeus (sometimes identified with Hades himself)! 
It's not about the same sentence, but about manifesting under earth. I know, for you is just too confusing ...
 
Somtimes I wonder if you can read. Those are definitions of the underworld.
You certainly can't read nor understand much of I write. The third definition was of 'chthonic'. True, the first two definitions were of the underworld and it was my choice to pick them because that dictionary gives of 'chthonic' = 'or and of related to the underworld' and 'chthonian' = 'having to do with the underworld', rather meaningless definitions if we don't know what underworld is. Therefore chthonic is something of that, related to that, having to do with that. Add "related to" in front of them and you have the exact definition, it's not really that complicated.
 
 And they are very carefully selected. The commonplace understanding of 'underworld' is where the dead reside and where the powers over the dead and their servants and demons have their abode. SOME people see that as under the earth.
  But the definition of 'chthonic' is not about whatever underworlds, but about a specific sub-terranean underworld. That some dictionaries are vague, it's not really my fault. You can anytime resort to scholarship which is from where the word was taken from and read about this concept in detail.
 
And so you casually dismiss yet another reputable dictionary (it's from Webster) because it doesn't agree with you. How do you justify this ssumption of superiority over the dictionary compilers?
With a heap of scholars (and I already did). While arguably most dictionary compilers have no competence in comparative religion. And I did not dismiss it, it has two meanings, one 'chthonian' (a link which you failed to follow) which pertains to underworld, and the second one, rather metaphorical (if you disagree, please quote a scholar using that term with this meaning for a god or a cult!)
 
That 'chthonic' has connotations of darkness and mystery (and similar moods) IS the point, it's not missing it.
This is a thread about mother goddesses and consequently comparative religion, not about how various people find ancient gods mysterious because they do not know much about them.
A mysterious sky god of lightning is chthonic???
 
We are discussing the appropriate use of 'chthonic' in modern English, not in ancient Greek (where it isn't even a word, in fact).  That it originally derives from a Greek term meaning 'earth' is immaterial. It may surprise you, but the common English meaning of testes is not 'witnesses': you would, operatinig in your fashion be presumably embarrassed when being asked to produce your witnesses in court.
 
Paper is not papyrus; a table is not a board for writing things on; a skiff is not a ship; a demand is not a request. And so on and so on.
Why don't you learn to read? I'm not talking about Greek language, but about Greek mythology. Can you make the difference between the two?
 
And I explained the problem.  I rest with the dictionaries: you yourself have provided several references showing the term has two disctinct meanings. I'm not going to scramble through the works of the likes of Stephen King or H.P.Lovecraft just looking for references for you.
You explained nothing. Some dictionaries hit the nail, some are rather vague. If you'd rest with the dictionaries, you'd have to deal with a heap of them claiming the word means 'related to the earth', 'living in the earth', etc.
 
Scholars give detailed accounts, which you, out of anti-intellectualism and cecity keep rejecting. That your ultimate source is fantasy literature only proves my point, that the meaning you want to enforce is moody, metaphorical (and for this topic a made-up and irrelevant one). This is a thread about religion, not about Lovecraft's fictional universe.
 
Common parlance has a lot more to do with the writings of popular novelists than it has to do with the essays of academics carried away with their little piece of esoteric knowledge of etymology.
For ignorants, yes (you testify to be one by calling the academic knowledge "esoteric", quite a hopeless one considering you also describe it with unjustified superiority as a "little piece"!).
 
However this is a thread about religion, not about modern literary fiction, and 'chthonic' is a technical term from comparative religion. The dictionary compilers did not fish for this term in the works of Lovecraft, but in the works of Rohde.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Dec-2008 at 17:29
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2013 at 01:18
First agricultural societies were all Great Mother societies.Ex. hunter&gatherers for the first time had been depended of Earth's mercy(we also!) so that they worshiped it as sa God&Goddess.
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