Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Myths about the Americas
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Myths about the Americas
    Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 11:24
Originally posted by Jams

But isn't that based on imported European grapes?
 
 
 
Not according to the friend who introduced us to these wines.  Why would they import European grapes?  That would make these wines expensive, and they aren't.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:25
Originally posted by red clay

... 
Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]
 
That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  
 
Yes. Chilean wine is excellent because an amazing reason.  Grapes came to Chile with the conquistadors (you know, the mass), however it was only during the middle of the 19th century when the wine industry started with the import of large quantities of superb FRENCH parrs. Unlikely for the French they suffered the phylostera attack at the end of that century, and since then we have the authentic french grapes LOL...
 
You can find good chilean wine at cheap prices. Actually, most chilean wine is fine, given they are red wines. The price stuff is just for very sensible people. Myself, I buy the cheapest, that kind that isn't export and that here comes in paper-boxes, of those used to pack milk LOL
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Jams

But isn't that based on imported European grapes?
 
Not according to the friend who introduced us to these wines.  Why would they import European grapes?  That would make these wines expensive, and they aren't.
 
You can't make wine with imported grapes, simply because wine is a product with a certificate of origin. If it says "maipo" on it, for instance, it means the par was grown and bottled in the maipo valley.
Back to Top
Jams View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

Suspended

Joined: 06-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 12:47
I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 13:24
Originally posted by Jams

I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
 
Yes, chilean wine grapes are French in its origin.
What gives the special character of the wine is the grape, indeed, but also the soil, the rain, the sun and even the tonel were the grape ferment. It is a very interesting and complex process, indeed, and few countries had the condition to making good wines.
In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.


Edited by pinguin - 24-Nov-2008 at 13:25
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by pinguin

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 
In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.

Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile


Edited by Styrbiorn - 24-Nov-2008 at 15:50
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 15:43
Originally posted by pinguin

In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.
Don't say that in Luxembourg.
 
Also you forgot the Balkans. Yugoslav Riesling was a very popular cheap drink when I was an undergraduate. And I'm very partial to retsina in the summertime.
 
Nobody English would leave out Portugal either. And believe it or not we produce it in Hampshire even - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 24-Nov-2008 at 15:44
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:42
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

...Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile
 
Actually, the chilean original strawberry taste better than the hybrid known worldwide. However, it has a little defect: it is white instead of red. It is produced in small quantities only as a delicatesen.


Edited by pinguin - 24-Nov-2008 at 16:43
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:48
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

...Actually modern strawberries are a mix of both South and North American types. Anyway, Scandinavian wild strawberries are far superior to these massproduced berries when it comes to taste, but they can't really be grown in large amounts and can only be found in the wild. Smile
 
Actually, the chilean original strawberry taste better than the hybrid known worldwide. However, it has a little defect: it is white instead of red. It is produced in small quantities only as a delicatesen.

I believe you, would be nice to try, though I doubt you can get it around here.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 16:52
Originally posted by gcle2003

Don't say that in Luxembourg.
 
Also you forgot the Balkans. Yugoslav Riesling was a very popular cheap drink when I was an undergraduate. And I'm very partial to retsina in the summertime.
 
Nobody English would leave out Portugal either. And believe it or not we produce it in Hampshire even - http://www.easier.com/view/Lifestyle/Food_and_Drink/Wine/article-121662.html
 
 
Sorry. I was thinking just in the large mass producers of wine.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 21:39
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Jams

I did't mean it as recently imported, but originally imported long time ago. Just as you say above.
 
Yes, chilean wine grapes are French in its origin.
What gives the special character of the wine is the grape, indeed, but also the soil, the rain, the sun and even the tonel were the grape ferment. It is a very interesting and complex process, indeed, and few countries had the condition to making good wines.
In Europe, we have France, Italy, Germany and Spain, in North America you have California. In the Southern Hemisphere you have Australia, Argentina and Chile, and not many countries more.
 
 
In the US California gets all the press but on the East Coast there are some superb local wineries.  New York state produces some excellent wines, and believe it or not so does New Jersey.  You brought up strawberries and reminded me that I have to go to Tomasello Vineyards to pick my supply of strawberry wine for the Holidays.  And on the way home stop at the Renault Winery for the New Years Champagne.Wink
 
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 23:23

Hey Red Clay:

What do you know about the production of wine made of native grapes, in the East Coast, by some small producers? I am very interested on that topic. Also I would like to know if natives of the East Coast ever made wine before contact. Finally, who knows, perhaps the east coast was the actual Vinland of Norse sagas. Nowhere else in the Atlantic Americas you find grapes.
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 23:46
The French found grapes in New France but concluded they were inferior to those of France and the "Old World."
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:34
Originally posted by King John

The French found grapes in New France but concluded they were inferior to those of France and the "Old World."
 
Well the fruit of many plants grows in many places and in many varieties.  New France was eastern Canada, and that is rather too cold for viniculture.....A short growing season too.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 25-Nov-2008 at 00:51
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:42
Originally posted by pinguin

Hey Red Clay:

What do you know about the production of wine made of native grapes, in the East Coast, by some small producers? I am very interested on that topic. Also I would like to know if natives of the East Coast ever made wine before contact. Finally, who knows, perhaps the east coast was the actual Vinland of Norse sagas. Nowhere else in the Atlantic Americas you find grapes.

 
Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 25-Nov-2008 at 00:51
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 00:48
On the wines of New York, they do a pretty good job with some white varietals, especially Chardonnay, and they make pretty decent Champagnes. 
 
The industry in NY got started (so I am told) when Americans became somewhat wealthier, and could afford more imported luxuries.  The Champagne of France was quite expensive, and the available supply was impacted by the Franco-Prussian War.  Some hotels, where one dined out in those days, in New York and Boston bought Champagnes from New York State producers and those were well received, as well as being more affordable.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 25-Nov-2008 at 00:54
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 01:15

Well, my curiosity goes on the american native varieties of grapes. Vinis Vinifera is the standar international grape we all know. However, in the U.S. there are some wines produces with the variety called Vinis Labrusca (fox grape), and a wine called "Concord" is made from it:

 
And also with another north american wild variety called vinis riparia (River bank grape) which sometimes is used to make wine as well.
 
If I am not wrong, produce this:
 
Image:Hermannhoff%20whitelady%20of%20starkenburg%20wine.jpg
 
 
 
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 08:29
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor. 

Actually, they were quite acquainted with wines: wine was the beverage of choice among those who could afford it. It was a luxury product that had been imported since Roman times. Some saga - I don't remember which - do mention grapes in Vinland. On the other hand, the Norse had no knowledge whatsoever in actually making wine.
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 15:25
Styrbiorn:
 
Good point.  Obviously there were interactions between Scandinavia and wine country.  Because of that cartoon thread in the Tavern, I must have been thinking of Hagar the Horrible.  Embarrassed
 
 
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2008 at 18:52

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Unless the Norse discovered the Ste Laurence River and made it further inland and further south, it is doubtful they ever got to areas where either the growing season or the climate (or soil conditions) were favorable for viniculture.  Also, the Norse were not all that familiar with wine (pillaging northern France and Iberia had been several centuries before the North American voyages), and their favorite beverage was mead or some other brewed liquor.

I think they probably found blueberries, which are native to the Maritimes and Maine (I think it might be the only place they can grow even now). The North Shore of Quebec is particularly abundant with them, and the Vikings supposedly did venture there at least once, briefly. These might be the "Vins" they are referring to.

Since they didn't make wine, and weren't familiar with grapes, they could have assumed that the blueberries were grapes (or, at least, something very similar and quite delicious).



Edited by edgewaters - 25-Nov-2008 at 18:53
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.