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rider
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Topic: Most important dynasty in Europe? Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:42 |
Which of these dynasties is/was the most important in the Imperial Age, Renesaince and Early Modern???
I'd vote for Bourbons in France because France gathered it's status under them, and gained many victories.
PS!! Sorry, ofr not having Osmanoglu dynasty in it.
Edited by rider
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 15:14 |
In the early modern period, I would agree....Bourbon dynasty.
However the more influential dynasty was the Habsburg. Imagine a dynastic house whose line was virtually continuous from the 14th century to 1918.
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faram
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Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 13:43 |
The Habsburg can be considered as a whole both in Austria and in Spain, with Karl V/ Carlos I they were the same, and, after his abdication, their interests were the same.
I have voted the Austria in Spain because Habsburg foreing policies followed, more or less, the way indicated by the Spanish ramification of the family. (If somebody doesn't know it, Austria is the name the Habsburg were called in Spain)
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rider
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Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 13:03 |
But basically if even one dynasty rules two different places they can be considered as two different ones.
I never knew that Spain, the Catholic Kingdom might have the same interests as Germany whatsoever... it seems hard to understand.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 17:18 |
Rider:
The ideal (and myth) of universal empire was still alive around 1500, although by mid century the Reformation and the impossible size of the Habsburg empire had pretty much destroyed it. Charles V abdicated in part because the job of ruling all of that was beyond any one man.
The Habsburgs had assembled all these lands through dynastic marriages. The Austrian Habsburg "patrimonial" duchies and later all the low countries in Maximillian's marriage to Mary of Burgundy in the later 15th century. The Spanish monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabella, acquired the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily...these two families were joined in marriage and the heir of the Spanish monarchs was the Habsburg Charles V, King of Spain, Naples, Duke of Burgundy, Count of Brabant, Flanders...AND Holy Roman Emperor in 1519!
The Austrian side added the Kingdom of Hungary, and were kings of Bohemia as elected monarchs (later that crown became hereditary). And in addition, Spain brought all the new world of America, except Brazil, into the mix.
OK so far?
When Charles in 1550 something (1555?) realized the enormity of this responsibility, he split the 'realm' into two upon abdication, with Spanish Habsburgs keeping Italian lands (including now Milan), the Netherlands, America and Phillipines, and Austrian Habsburgs keeping the duchies, Hungary, Bohemia and the Imperial title......maybe he saw that germany was going badly with the Reformation and all the conflict there and he felt Spain could keep the very wealthy Netherlands, the metals of the Americas and be able to fight off the Turks in the Meditteranean. Not sure there, but he kept the wealthiest parts for his son Phillips II and left the troublesome German problem to Austria.
These houses were related closely until late in the 17th century, and there was always the bond of Catholic solidarity especially during the Counterreformation. They cooperated closely during the first half of the Thirty Years War, but as Spain declined, both branches realized their interests were less closely connected, and their policies thereafter moved in separate directions. Of course the Spanish Habsburg line died out in 1700.
Hope this makes some sense.
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rider
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Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 12:26 |
Well, it makes, not much, but it makes sense.
Thanks for the help.
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Isis
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Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 13:45 |
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I had to vote Habsburgs.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 14:02 |
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I don't want to be unnecessarily patriotic here, but I think the Hohenzollern who ruled Prussia and later Germany from the early 16th century until the end of WW1, and produced a number of remarkable monarchs, surely deserve to be included here, especially in comparison to some of the others.
Not that they would get my vote, but nevertheless!
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rider
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Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 09:22 |
Hold, tell me who should be disbanded from the l9ist nd why should they be added?
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faram
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Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 15:47 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
I don't want to be unnecessarily patriotic here, but I think the Hohenzollern who ruled Prussia and later Germany from the early 16th century until the end of WW1, and produced a number of remarkable monarchs, surely deserve to be included here, especially in comparison to some of the others. Not that they would get my vote, but nevertheless! |
But the importance of the Hohenzollern was not so big until XVIII century...
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Vlad Catrina
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Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:00 |
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The Habsburgs in Germany, Spain and Austria were great imperialists. Their influence was strong- I vote for Habsburg.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 29-May-2005 at 15:52 |
I don't see why the Braganzas are present in that pole. They were indeed quite powerful in the Peninsula, but as a reigning house, the Burgundy - Avis (1385-1580) were alot more globaly influent.
Also, aren't the Austrias and the Hapsburgs the same Royal House?
Edited by Frederick Roger
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Temujin
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Posted: 29-May-2005 at 18:11 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Also, aren't the Austrias and the Hapsburgs the same Royal House?
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yes they are.
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Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 30-May-2005 at 04:35 |
Hapsburg is austria-hungary and spain by the way not germany. The German states had weak monarch but Prussia and Bavaria had powerful monarchs. The Hohenzollern deserve a mention here.
Bourbon dynasty did triumph over the hapsburg and impose a bourbon on the throne of Spain. The hapsburgs of Spain were defeated by the Bourbon while the fall of the hapsburg was total during WW1.
Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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Jalisco Lancer
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Posted: 30-May-2005 at 14:29 |
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I voted for the Hapsburg despites the execution of Maximilian.
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Temujin
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Posted: 30-May-2005 at 15:24 |
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
Bourbon dynasty did triumph over the hapsburg and impose a bourbon on the throne of Spain. The hapsburgs of Spain were defeated by the Bourbon while the fall of the hapsburg was total during WW1.
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no, not at all, the alliance has already imposed Archduke Charles on the throne of Spain but after the monarch of Austria died, Charles also became ruler of Austria, so England did no longer support the Habsburgs as they would have become too powerful, so in the end the Bourbons only got their will because of this coincidence. and initially a member of house Wittelsbach should have gotten the throne of Spain but he died too early, that's why Bavaria was allied to France in the war.
BTW, you have a weird way of saying things, like France triumphed over Germany in ww1 or in this case.....I can imagine you with your friends going out to a fast food restaurant, and once you settle for Burger king you shout something like Burger King has triumphed over McDonalds, Ronald is defeated! 
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rider
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Posted: 31-May-2005 at 03:03 |
Well, in a mater of fact, you can't say that one dynasty has been more powerful just because it still alsts or has lasted longer.
Even if the last members head was cut of then, still you can't say the dynasty wasn't powerful or did something bad...
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 09:33 |
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The Hapsburgs did far more to defend Europe from the Ottoman threat and played a defining role in the split that occured during the reformation. I don't think any single family was able to mobilize the forces that they could, or managed to achieve such defining victories during that period of time.
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 10:38 |
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I see we have the most powerful and longest survived one missing here. Of course the Osmanoglu (Ottoman) dynasty. They lasted more than 600 years.
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Maju
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Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 15:05 |
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Why did you split Habsburgs of Germany and Spain? I didn't know to which of the two vote, as they were the same dynasty
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