Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedBosnian Army

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bosnian Army
    Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 17:17

If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims.

Two mistake in two sentence,

Firstly you cannot know why they converted.

Secondly, Converted people are not the people live now, Religion of islam is religion of their birth. So they will not think, our fathers converted this religion because of political or economical motivation. So lets change it.

They will think, we are muslim. So your historical investigation dont hold much water.

But after all you know your people better.

 

 

 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 23:05
I'm so supportive of Bosnians, I'd even go there myself to help
out.
Back to Top
ill_teknique View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:02
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims. For the Bosnians, its become a sort of thing they like to dangle over the Serbs, their identity is based off Islam, without Islam, Bosnians are just Croats and Serbs, with the Kosovar is the similar issue, culturally surrounded bya people of different religion who despise the latter, samething, this is why I want Kosovo to go independant, so it does not have to be in this situation. Same with the Iliriden, of Fyrom. Had all these peopel been given complete freedom and had the Serbs not been so aggressive over the fact that these peoipel are muslims, you would have seen the religiousness die out due to cultural isolation, but the Serbs acted idiotically brutally massacering thousands etc etc. which only enforced the religiouness on these people(Bosnians and Kosovar). Albanians were never in this however, the entire Albanian identity had no religion in place in fact it was the only nation in the Balkans that did not place its indentity on religion but on Albanianess(Hence the poem "Religion of Albanians is Albanianism"). This on top of the fact that the Ottoman Empire was dying and very much isolating Albania, on top of that was often working against Albanias interests reading to partition the land among Serbs and Greeks, and making the muslims, the original high class society, be like the others. However, the Christians in Albania lived for 500 years in an enviroment that was like the Kosovar Albs and Bosnians today, surrounded by converters, so their religion is held tighter where as the muslims in Albania were the highclass and thus not really attached to the religion as it was taken as more of a economical thing then spiritual. Get it?


PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS. 

 A - THERE WAS  A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA
SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC

B - THE THEORY THAT BOSNIANS ARE EITHER CONVERTED CROATS OR SERBS IS ABSURD BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FROM SERBIA OR CROATIA THEY ARE BOSNAINS FROM BOSNNIA A MEDIEVAL KINGDOM THAT WAS CONQUERED BY THE OTTOMANS AND IT ADOPTED ISLAM AND THERE WERE INTERMARIAGES BETWEEN TURKS AND BOSNIANS.  IT IS SERBIAN PROPAGANDA THAT SPREAD THIS IDEA BACK IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY SO THAT IT COULD CLAIM BOSNIA.

C - THE BOSNIAN IDENTITY IS AMPLIFIED BY ISLAM AND OTTOMAN HERITAGE IT DOES NOT CENTER ON IT.

D - DONT EVER STATE ANTYHING ON A COUNTRY TOPIC YOU HAVE NO f**kING CLUE WHAT SO EVER ABOUT

WHY ARE WE DISCUSING ALBANIA AND THE "ALLEGED" MASS APEAL AMONG KURDS FOR BREAKAWAY FROM TURKEY IN A B0SNIAN THREAD


Back to Top
TheodoreFelix View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:32
Something got up someones ass....

PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS.


Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45less if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy % of Albanians being agnostics today.

THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC


There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity for themselves today.

As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.


Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:58
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO



As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.


Most Kurds? No they're not.the maps wasn't created by Turkish Kurds.it is a dream of iraqi Kurds and some other countries which also support terrorism and a separation of Turkey.you said it, hypocrasy it is.
Back to Top
ill_teknique View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:59
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Something got up someones ass....

PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS.


Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45less if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy % of Albanians being agnostics today.

THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC


There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity for themselves today.

As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.




Yes Montenegro/ crna gora is a nationality  because no montenegrin calls himself a serb, they call themselves montenegrins.
Serbia is a geographic term so you know what I am going to say that there is no serbian nationality but they are bosnian orthodox chrisitians that developed a distinct nationality after a while.  Because as you know the Bosnian King did crown himself king of serbia in 1377 he suported the serbian prince on his claims of serbia and never conquered the whole country but still they are bosnians by that theory. please spare me your bullsh*t.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 16:14

Bosnians over fascist and genocidal racist Serbs any day.

Long live Bosnia.

Back to Top
Al Bedawi View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 28-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 72
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 07:15
I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.

unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the

Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.

The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and Austrians and Italians.

Serbs however look towards russia.
An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
Back to Top
ill_teknique View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 19:50
Originally posted by Al Bedawi

I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.

unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the

Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.

The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and Austrians and Italians.

Serbs however look towards russia.


Bosnian from bosnia

bosnians have three religions islam cahtolic orthodox

the krsstjani and bogomils converted en masse to islam and mixed with turks during the Ottoman empire

the catholic bosnians and orhodox bosnian stayed same religion

the krstanji was the name of the Independent Bosnian Church that had no ties to Rome or Constatniople

serbians and croatians live in bosnia too and they are iether catholic or orthodox

all three natioalites come from slavic tribes that invaded the are in the 7th ct

there is a difference because there were three kingdoms a kingdom of croatia which lasted up to 11th ct and was annexed by hungary

the bosnian kingdom that lasted till 1463

and the serbian which lasted till 1390s

//////
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 16:13
I was in Iran during the Bosnian war. The Iranian govt was constantly airing television propaganda, in an attempt to get Iranians to volunteer and fight in Bosnia. The music they used sounded like religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for these songs on the internet?
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 02:09

in the Massacre of Srebrenicia, more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were murdered after the town of Srebrenica fell to Bosnian Serb forces, commanded by Krstic, in the summer of 1995. 

The civilized countries of Europe just stood up watching. BBC itself comments : "Srebrenica was supposed to be a UN-designated safe area but UN forces in the town proved unable or unwilling to help its Muslim population. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1470654.stm

Without the courage & bravery of the Muslim Bosnians and the help of their brothers from all the Islamic world, where would be Bosnia now? divided? Actually not even divided, will be empty. Serbians don't conquer cities only, they massacre populations!

They say, in Bosnia, ethnic cleansing happened. I just wonder why is it ethnic if all Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs are of the same race? Only Albanians are different. Clearly, it was nothing but religious cleansing in Bosnia. I'm just proud that I know personally 2 older people who joined the War in Bosnia. One is back. The other one is missing till today.

D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 06:49

never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran

Maybe because they are Bektashis or Alevis...

Believe it or not, Albania was the capital of the Bektashi sect, a sect found by a Turkmen of Khorasan, Haci Bektash Veli...

Albanians were always one of the most important subjects of the empire's ulema. Half of the sadrazams were Albanian origined. Albania was the last Balkan country to become independent from Ottoman rule. Because they didnt even fight to become independent. They were happy and totally loyal to the Ottoman Empire.

The majority of citizens of Albania are secular in orientation after decades of rigidly enforced atheism under the Communist regime, which ended in 1990. Despite such secularism, most citizens traditionally associate themselves with a religious group. Citizens of Muslim background make up the largest traditional religious group (estimated at 65 to 70 percent of the population) and are divided into two communities: those associated with a moderate form of Sunni Islam and those associated with the Bektashi school (a particularly liberal form of Shi'a Sufism). In 1925 after the revolution of Ataturk in Turkey, the country became the world center of Bektashism, although it has not been recognized as such by the Government. Unlike traditional Muslims, the Bektashi did not forbid followers to drink alcohol or eat pork, did not require women to be veiled, and used a less formal type of prayer. Bektashis are estimated to represent approximately 20% of the country's Muslim population.

Muslims are spread throughout the country but are concentrated mostly in the middle of the country and to a lesser extent in the south. Orthodox remain mainly in the south, and Catholics in the north of the country; however, this division is not strict, particularly in the case of many urban centers, which have mixed populations. The Greek minority, concentrated in the south, belongs to the Orthodox Church. No data is available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates are that 30 to 40 percent of the population practices a religion. Foreign religious representatives, including Muslim clerics, Christian and Bah' missionaries, members of Jehovah's Witnesses, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and many others freely carry out religious activities.

According to the State Committee on Cults, as of 2002, there were about 17 different Muslim societies and groups active in the country; some of these groups were foreign. There were 31 Christian societies representing more than 45 different organizations and 500 to 600 Christian and Bah' missionaries. The largest foreign missionary groups were American, British, Italian, Greek, and Arab.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:40

Selam Alejkum jarane.. sta ima?

ivela Bosna

ja volim bosna i sve iz bosna

allahimant

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:47

Originally posted by DFront21

The music they used sounded like religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for these songs on the internet?

yes there are, but I'm not sure what songs you're looking for, however try looking for the one called "Bosna Je Jedna Jedina", you could find it easily, it is great.

Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 11:48
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Im wondering guys, I mean you obviously back the whole Bosnian liberation movement and succession from Serbia. But Im pretty sure you would be stoutly against a succession from the Kurds. Do you guys really have a way to justify but not the latter?


We did not "succeed" from Serbia.  That would imply we were a part of Serbia, which we were not.

Even historically speaking, Bosnia existed before the first Serbian kingdom was fully consolidated. Before the Ottoman Empire, we were also members of the Bosnian Church - which was not aligned with any faith, but had closer ties to Roman Catholicism and Croatia than to Serbia.

Our King, Tvrtko Kotromanic, conquered Serbia at one point.

In fact, the only time Bosnia was not recognized as such was from 1918-1945. Following WWI we were incorporated into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. During WWII we were incorporated into Croatia. After WWII we were incorporated into Yugoslavia, as the Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:11
so who are the Bosniaks then? can we say they are Slavic Muslims?
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:23
Yes, we're Slavic Muslims.

When the Slavs arrived here, they settled what would become Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia. Over the centuries, we began to develop our own, distinct, regional cultures. The introduction of Christianity in this part of the whole made this process faster. Croatia aligned itself with Rome, Serbia with Byzantium, but Bosnia developed it's own, distinct form of Christianity - the Bosnian Church, whose members are usually called Bogumils.

For whatever reasons, some Croatian and Serbian historians believe Bosniaks are just "Muslim Serbs", or "Muslim Croats", usually they put us with the other ethnic group. This is quite easily disproven. Both countries have records of the speeches of King Tvrtko Kotromanic who always upheld the Bosniak identity during the days of the Bosnian Church. The Ottoman Empire provides even greater proof, with literally thousands of references to the Bosniak identity, and the Bosnian language. This easily disproves Croatian and Serbian nationalist claims that the term Bosniak was invented in the 1990s.

The problem is this. Imagine there is a family tree:

The Mother is Ivana, her three daughters are Svetlana, Amira, and Bojana.

Now you can say that Amira is descendant from Ivana, just as you can say Bosniaks are descendent from Slavs.

But you can't say Amira is descendant from Svetlana, just as you can't say Bosniaks are descendent from Serbs.

Svetlana (Serbs) and Amira (Bosniaks) are family, very close family. They share a racial, cultural, and linguistic heritage. But Bosniaks were never Orthodox Christians who referred to themselves as Serbs, they were never even the acknowledged subjects of the Byzantine Emperor. Sisters, yes, but Svetlana is in no way our Mother.

Make sense?


Edited by Mila
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:31
I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak language  different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same but have a few differences?
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
Back to Top
erci View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:32
thanks for the infos, yes they are all clear
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:41
Originally posted by erci

I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak language  different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same but have a few differences?


All three languages are more or less the same, especially in a proper, academic sense. They can be very different - but only if we're speaking in slang. For example...to say "Hey, how are you?" can go so many different ways...

Croatian: Bok, kako si?
Serbian: Zdravo, sta ima novo?
Bosnian: Selam, kak'si bejbi! Sta'ma!?

But all Slavic languages are more or less the same. Any Bosniak can understand spoken Russian well enough to know what is being talked about, even if they've never heard a word of Russian before in their lives. Only Ukrainian and Hungarian are truly unique and difficult for non-Ukrainians and non-Hungarians to understand at all.

In terms of actual differences...there's different accents and letter combinations. For example "News"...

Croatian: Vijesti
Serbian: Vesti
Bosnian: Vijesti/Vjesti in some areas

Then you have more Turkish and Arabic words present in Bosnian and Serbian than in Croatia. Also months are different.

Croatian: December = Sjecanje
Bosnian: December = Decembar

Etc, etc, etc.

Its like...

Croatian = British English
Serbian = American English
Bosnian = African American Slang
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.201 seconds.