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"Christ the Magician"

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  Quote Mythica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Christ the Magician"
    Posted: 05-Oct-2008 at 11:05
Anyone see this?
 
 

Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician'

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by French epigrapher and professor emeritus Andre Bernand as meaning either, "by Christ the magician" or "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, thinks a "magus" could have practiced fortune-telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Mathew in the Bible refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.

"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

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By%20Christ%20the%20Magician
 

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.

"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.

The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.

Goddio explained, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles. Based on Biblical texts, these included transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection.

While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.

Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.

Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."

"It was in Alexandria where new religious constructions were made to propose solutions to the problem of man, of God's world," he added. "Cults of Isis, mysteries of Mithra, and early Christianity bear witness to this."

The bowl is currently on public display in the exhibit "Egypt's Sunken Treasures" at the Matadero Cultural Center in Madrid, Spain, until November 15.

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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2008 at 18:58
I don't think that there is word in Greek like "goistais"...
And Christ-ΧΡΙCTOC in Greek is written with giota-I , eta-H is used for the personal name(XPHCTOC) which means "virtuous". I haven't ever seen a reference to Jesus 
as XPHCTOC with eta,and the name on this bowl is with eta so I don't think that it has
to do anything  with Jesus. Maybe a early Christian...

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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2008 at 19:16
More rubbish from the anti Christian community who want to make it seem that the early Christians were actually "pagans" and bring the same stupid arguements like Christmas is a pagan holiday and so is easter/pascha.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2008 at 19:18
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

More rubbish from the anti Christian community who want to make it seem that the early Christians were actually "pagans" and bring the same stupid arguements like Christmas is a pagan holiday and so is easter/pascha.

Well Christmas has always been pagan holiday - winter solstice - thats no surprise.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 06:26
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

More rubbish from the anti Christian community who want to make it seem that the early Christians were actually "pagans" and bring the same stupid arguements like Christmas is a pagan holiday and so is easter/pascha.

Well Christmas has always been pagan holiday - winter solstice - thats no surprise.
 
No it isn't. Christmas is a Holiday for Christ and though it isn't known what date Christ was born on (obviously not winter) it was placed during the winter solstice to deter Christians from going to pagan holiday get togethers where they sacrificed to idols, orgies and all the good ol pagan rituals. Having the same date of a holiday makes it no more the same then you sharing a birthday with someone. it's a weak arguement.
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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 07:16
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

[
 No it isn't. Christmas is a Holiday for Christ and though it isn't known what date Christ was born on (obviously not winter) it was placed during the winter solstice to deter Christians from going to pagan holiday get togethers where they sacrificed to idols, orgies and all the good ol pagan rituals. Having the same date of a holiday makes it no more the same then you sharing a birthday with someone. it's a weak arguement.
 
Orgies, damned i belong to the anti-christian-community and usualy i don't take part at orgies. Where do this events take place?

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 07:31
Patrinos is absolutely right...This does not refer to Jesus.


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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 16:30

I agree with Flipper and patrinos. Not every reference of the word Chistos belongs to Jesus. I hope historians, laymen and religious folk reflect on that.

Mythica, I also hope you have more to your posts than copy/pasting! Wink
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  Quote Mythica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 17:54
Unfortunately I'm seriously uneducated compared to 99.9999999% of people here so I don't have much to contribute other than news. I do lurk a lot more than I post, I don't mean to appear detached from the community because if you know how much I read, you'd know I'm very involved. But I just feel I don't have much to add in comparison to the level of education most people here have.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 18:17

Any input of the mythical kind would do you justice dear Mythica. News is dandy but commentaries are even better. Smile

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  Quote Ardashir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 20:37
very interesting.
 
it should also be noted that epiphany is also the day in which 3 magians from east (iran) paid homage to christ.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 22:58
Just an epigraphic example out of many that can be found.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=169538&bookid=187&region=5&subregion=12

ὑπὲρ τῆς τῶν Σεβασ-

τῶν διαμονῆς καὶ

τοῦ σύνπαντος αὐτῶ-

ν οἴκου καὶ ἱερᾶς συ[ν]-

5

κλ[ή]του καὶ δήμου Ῥ-

ωμαίων ΕΛΛΗΝΕϹ(?) {²⁷ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ(?)}²⁷

Βειθυ<ος καὶ> Χρῆστος Δ-

ε<ιζ?>ηου [κ]αὶ Μίκκαλο-

ς Παπίου καὶ Ἀντ<ίφ>-

10

ιλος Χρυσίππου

ἐπιμελητεύσα-

ντες τῆς κατασκ-

ευῆς τῶν ναῶν

τὸν βωμὸν καὶ τὸ

15

ἄγαλμα Μητρὶ Θε-

ῶν ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων ἀφι-

έρωσαν.


It enumerates some people who errected a pagan statue of the mother of gods. One of those people is named ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ (Not Χριστός) as inscribed on the cup shown. Generally, based on that orthography people can make up wild stories about Jesus.



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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:22
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

More rubbish from the anti Christian community who want to make it seem that the early Christians were actually "pagans" and bring the same stupid arguements like Christmas is a pagan holiday and so is easter/pascha.


Well, Christmas in its form is not a pagan holiday, but a replacement of the earlier Dionysian holidays. The Dionysian fests were probably the most difficult to erase from peoples memories, since they were not just religious but also fun.

In Grevena, Epirus and Drama in Greece they have various dionysian cults during Xmas. People dress like animans in Grevena and in certain places in Epirus and have something like a mini carneval. Wine is always on the menu...In some places in Drama people even dress like Dionysus.

I had some hard-copy pictures somewhere. I'll try to find them and scan them.

In any case my point is that in order to remove those cults, you needed something really big to replace them.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:34
This is what i was talking about...This cult is called "Arapides" celebrated around the mountain Paggaeon in northern Greece. It is a bacchic tradition similar to what is described in Eyripides work, that is celebrated during xmas. You could say those traditions co-exist in the same way Catholicism and Santeria does in the Caribean.








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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:43
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

 
Orgies, damned i belong to the anti-christian-community and usualy i don't take part at orgies. Where do this events take place?


Well...It is said that just a couple of decades ago, in the carneval of Tyrnabos (between central Greece and Thessaly) young people of the opposite gender used to pick up randomly a discuised partner LOL  and had some orgies...until...one day something went wrong and they stopped that tradition. I dunno if it is true or bullshit, but i've heard some wild stories about it.


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  Quote Mythica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2008 at 19:00
Originally posted by Seko

Any input of the mythical kind would do you justice dear Mythica. News is dandy but commentaries are even better. Smile

 
I'll keep that in mind, thanks!
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  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:25
Originally posted by Mythica

Anyone see this?
 
 
[quote]

Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician'

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

The term Christ was not used by christianity till 174 CE, nor was the term Christian till that date. There is no contemporary document, scroll, manuscript, relic or writings about Jesus yet found. The most important find of this period, the dead sea scrolls, dated 100 BCE to 150 CE says nothing about Jesus or the early christians. The references to Jesus in two Roman archives are not contemporary, and dated as centuries after their original dates. It is a great historical anomoly.
Moses - the First Zionist.
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  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:33
Originally posted by Seko

I agree with Flipper and patrinos. Not every reference of the word Chistos belongs to Jesus. I hope historians, laymen and religious folk reflect on that.

Mythica, I also hope you have more to your posts than copy/pasting! Wink
 
Christos was the greek word for Messiah/Moshiach [Savier] when the Hebrew bible was first translated into greek, and called the Septuagint, circa 300 BCE. That word is not a greek or christian innovation. This word was first applied to Moses, who was regarded the Messiah of his times.
Moses - the First Zionist.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:37
Originally posted by IamJoseph

Originally posted by Mythica

Anyone see this?
 
 
[quote]

Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician'

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

The term Christ was not used by christianity till 174 CE, nor was the term Christian till that date. There is no contemporary document, scroll, manuscript, relic or writings about Jesus yet found. The most important find of this period, the dead sea scrolls, dated 100 BCE to 150 CE says nothing about Jesus or the early christians. The references to Jesus in two Roman archives are not contemporary, and dated as centuries after their original dates. It is a great historical anomoly.
 
I feel it is incumbent upon me to note that I feel that history proves false your statement regarding the date of the origin and use of the terms "Christ" and "Christian". I would refer the readers of this thread to page 6 of the thread below where Joseph and I began our discussion regarding the matter. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, or mean-spirited, but since I hold a different opinion and feel the matter is important, I think it is imperative that the readers of this thread are introduced to the broader context of the discussion.
 
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 03-Dec-2008 at 09:38
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:42
Not arguing with any person who can translate Greek better than me (ie at all), but I do seem to remember that a few other prophets in the past have been accused of being magicians. Pharaoh once challenged Moses's "magic" against his own magicians (resulting in the magicians subsequent conversion)

So Christ the Magician may not be modern anti-Christian propaganda but ancient anti-Christian/Muslim propaganda.
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