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"Christ the Magician"

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Christ the Magician"
    Posted: 07-Feb-2012 at 19:18

A photo of Jesus' cup from the website above. Could this be the real Holy Grail?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2012 at 19:14
This website has links to several books on the subject
http://deeperstudy.blogspot.com/2008/10/archaeology-update-jesus-was-miracle.html
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2011 at 16:57
Does anyone have a recent article or finding concerning the bowl itself?
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2011 at 13:01
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Not arguing with any person who can translate Greek better than me (ie at all), but I do seem to remember that a few other prophets in the past have been accused of being magicians. Pharaoh once challenged Moses's "magic" against his own magicians (resulting in the magicians subsequent conversion)

So Christ the Magician may not be modern anti-Christian propaganda but ancient anti-Christian/Muslim propaganda.
Woodhouse does give 'gois' (i is eta) as a term for magician.

Christ the Magician could also be pro-Christian propaganda, depending how you feel about magic. Weren't magicians popularly supposed to work miracles?

Not that I think that's true here. The dating appears to be much too early to be a reference to Jesus of Nazareth.
 
(Though I see some are already saying this my be the Grail.)


I think the Greek word for magician is Magos μάγος and not gois. Either way I'm quite convinced that this vase doesn't refer to Jesus because of the spelling with an eta.

I don't think that 'christ the magician' could be used as pro-christian propaganda since the miracles are supposed to be from God, not some magical mastery of the supernatural. The point of the miracles was to show the omnipotence of God and to prove that God can make anything happen.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2011 at 11:31
Yes, i'm talking to YOU. Come and join us, my friendSmile
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 18:58
To the guest who regularly views this thread: don't be shy, register with us. Your own opinions matterThumbs Up
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 23:31

The Bible speaks well about the Magi of the orient. I would expect the story of the visit they pay to the new born child has a meaning beyond the surface. What else could mean that visit that the initiation or the welcome ritual to the community of wise men, known as the Magi? I have always though that particular section of the New Testament is fictitious, but perhaps has a very important symbolic meaning it escapes me.

Besides, every myracle shown in the New Testament could be interpreted as magic, in the sense is beyong what happens in this world. 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 03-Dec-2008 at 23:35
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 13:33
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Not arguing with any person who can translate Greek better than me (ie at all), but I do seem to remember that a few other prophets in the past have been accused of being magicians. Pharaoh once challenged Moses's "magic" against his own magicians (resulting in the magicians subsequent conversion)

So Christ the Magician may not be modern anti-Christian propaganda but ancient anti-Christian/Muslim propaganda.
Woodhouse does give 'gois' (i is eta) as a term for magician.

Christ the Magician could also be pro-Christian propaganda, depending how you feel about magic. Weren't magicians popularly supposed to work miracles?

Not that I think that's true here. The dating appears to be much too early to be a reference to Jesus of Nazareth.
 
(Though I see some are already saying this my be the Grail.)
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 10:11
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

 
Orgies, damned i belong to the anti-christian-community and usualy i don't take part at orgies. Where do this events take place?


Well...It is said that just a couple of decades ago, in the carneval of Tyrnabos (between central Greece and Thessaly) young people of the opposite gender used to pick up randomly a discuised partner LOL  and had some orgies...until...one day something went wrong and they stopped that tradition. I dunno if it is true or bullshit, but i've heard some wild stories about it.
 
And the wild stories are?.......
 
I think I've read somewhere that the Phoenicians had a similar ritual also.  It was something like every woman least once in her life had to go to a temple(of Baal?) and offer herself to a stranger.  I was that stranger once.  No, but one of my ex was a half Lebanese, so close enough?Wink 
 
But considering their early maritime trade culture, it makes sense to develop/adopt a religion or its rituals that promote multi-culturalism?  It made sense to me then.


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 03-Dec-2008 at 10:13
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 10:06
Historians such as Josephus have referred to him as a magician and sorcerer too.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:42
Not arguing with any person who can translate Greek better than me (ie at all), but I do seem to remember that a few other prophets in the past have been accused of being magicians. Pharaoh once challenged Moses's "magic" against his own magicians (resulting in the magicians subsequent conversion)

So Christ the Magician may not be modern anti-Christian propaganda but ancient anti-Christian/Muslim propaganda.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:37
Originally posted by IamJoseph

Originally posted by Mythica

Anyone see this?
 
 
[quote]

Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician'

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

The term Christ was not used by christianity till 174 CE, nor was the term Christian till that date. There is no contemporary document, scroll, manuscript, relic or writings about Jesus yet found. The most important find of this period, the dead sea scrolls, dated 100 BCE to 150 CE says nothing about Jesus or the early christians. The references to Jesus in two Roman archives are not contemporary, and dated as centuries after their original dates. It is a great historical anomoly.
 
I feel it is incumbent upon me to note that I feel that history proves false your statement regarding the date of the origin and use of the terms "Christ" and "Christian". I would refer the readers of this thread to page 6 of the thread below where Joseph and I began our discussion regarding the matter. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, or mean-spirited, but since I hold a different opinion and feel the matter is important, I think it is imperative that the readers of this thread are introduced to the broader context of the discussion.
 
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 03-Dec-2008 at 09:38
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  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:33
Originally posted by Seko

I agree with Flipper and patrinos. Not every reference of the word Chistos belongs to Jesus. I hope historians, laymen and religious folk reflect on that.

Mythica, I also hope you have more to your posts than copy/pasting! Wink
 
Christos was the greek word for Messiah/Moshiach [Savier] when the Hebrew bible was first translated into greek, and called the Septuagint, circa 300 BCE. That word is not a greek or christian innovation. This word was first applied to Moses, who was regarded the Messiah of his times.
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  Quote IamJoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2008 at 09:25
Originally posted by Mythica

Anyone see this?
 
 
[quote]

Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician'

Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

The term Christ was not used by christianity till 174 CE, nor was the term Christian till that date. There is no contemporary document, scroll, manuscript, relic or writings about Jesus yet found. The most important find of this period, the dead sea scrolls, dated 100 BCE to 150 CE says nothing about Jesus or the early christians. The references to Jesus in two Roman archives are not contemporary, and dated as centuries after their original dates. It is a great historical anomoly.
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  Quote Mythica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2008 at 19:00
Originally posted by Seko

Any input of the mythical kind would do you justice dear Mythica. News is dandy but commentaries are even better. Smile

 
I'll keep that in mind, thanks!
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:43
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

 
Orgies, damned i belong to the anti-christian-community and usualy i don't take part at orgies. Where do this events take place?


Well...It is said that just a couple of decades ago, in the carneval of Tyrnabos (between central Greece and Thessaly) young people of the opposite gender used to pick up randomly a discuised partner LOL  and had some orgies...until...one day something went wrong and they stopped that tradition. I dunno if it is true or bullshit, but i've heard some wild stories about it.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:34
This is what i was talking about...This cult is called "Arapides" celebrated around the mountain Paggaeon in northern Greece. It is a bacchic tradition similar to what is described in Eyripides work, that is celebrated during xmas. You could say those traditions co-exist in the same way Catholicism and Santeria does in the Caribean.








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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 23:22
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

More rubbish from the anti Christian community who want to make it seem that the early Christians were actually "pagans" and bring the same stupid arguements like Christmas is a pagan holiday and so is easter/pascha.


Well, Christmas in its form is not a pagan holiday, but a replacement of the earlier Dionysian holidays. The Dionysian fests were probably the most difficult to erase from peoples memories, since they were not just religious but also fun.

In Grevena, Epirus and Drama in Greece they have various dionysian cults during Xmas. People dress like animans in Grevena and in certain places in Epirus and have something like a mini carneval. Wine is always on the menu...In some places in Drama people even dress like Dionysus.

I had some hard-copy pictures somewhere. I'll try to find them and scan them.

In any case my point is that in order to remove those cults, you needed something really big to replace them.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 22:58
Just an epigraphic example out of many that can be found.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=169538&bookid=187&region=5&subregion=12

ὑπὲρ τῆς τῶν Σεβασ-

τῶν διαμονῆς καὶ

τοῦ σύνπαντος αὐτῶ-

ν οἴκου καὶ ἱερᾶς συ[ν]-

5

κλ[ή]του καὶ δήμου Ῥ-

ωμαίων ΕΛΛΗΝΕϹ(?) {²⁷ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ(?)}²⁷

Βειθυ<ος καὶ> Χρῆστος Δ-

ε<ιζ?>ηου [κ]αὶ Μίκκαλο-

ς Παπίου καὶ Ἀντ<ίφ>-

10

ιλος Χρυσίππου

ἐπιμελητεύσα-

ντες τῆς κατασκ-

ευῆς τῶν ναῶν

τὸν βωμὸν καὶ τὸ

15

ἄγαλμα Μητρὶ Θε-

ῶν ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων ἀφι-

έρωσαν.


It enumerates some people who errected a pagan statue of the mother of gods. One of those people is named ΧΡΗΣΤΟΣ (Not Χριστός) as inscribed on the cup shown. Generally, based on that orthography people can make up wild stories about Jesus.



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  Quote Ardashir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 20:37
very interesting.
 
it should also be noted that epiphany is also the day in which 3 magians from east (iran) paid homage to christ.
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