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Direct Link To This Post Topic: TURANIANS
    Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 13:20
It has been pointed out that the discussion has moved far away from its original topic and seems to be in danger of exploding. Apparently, there are other threads about Azeris already. Why not calm down and continue the discussion there. Temporarily closed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 13:13

Spot the diffrence (or similarity)

Chaharshanbe souri, Pre-Norouz (New Year) celebrations:

Norouz is an Iranic holiday celebrated by: Lors, Persians, Baluchis, Tajikis, Kords, Armenians, Gilaki and Mazandaranis and Azaris ( I wonder why? .

Tabriz

 

Tehran

 

Tabriz:

Tehran 

Tabriz:

 

Tehran

 

Tabriz:



 










Tehran








 





 

Iranians:

I'd like to find pix from Baku too, but Yahoo doesnt keep pix for that long and i have no other source. But i guess my point is clear if not, then i'll have to clarify myself more.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 13:05

ok maybe youre first lession but ill try to explain:

how it comes that some tribe got Turkcized or Turkifed:

1- if they live in a region where the majority of people are Turks and they got mixed with them

2- if they are ruled by an Turkish empire or khanate and where forced to use Turkish (never heard of but maybe it helps).

If you say yes the number 1 is correct, ok where is the Turkish majority then? If you say damn Turks number2 correct, when did the Turkic empires used Turkish and forced people to use TUrkish when they did rule over persia?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:55
Originally posted by Kenaney

read youre pm and calm down. I didnt say i whas pan-turkist or something, i say it because ive saw that several times!

Say honestly, wich race isnt mixed today? Also you claim azaris are Iranian because of their religion? Am i an Arab because im an Sunni Muslim?

My PM, it's empty...? Ofcourse we're all mixed, no doubt about it.

But ,No i didnt claim that they are Iranian b/c of their religion. Another misunderstanding, this is the part i was thinking of:

Believed to have come from Transcaucasian peoples and the Medes.Their Turkicizing was one mainly of culture and language, and little of race.

The medes (Mdha) the same Iranic tribe which are the ancestors of Kurds and Lors.

Am i an pan-turkist when i say contra version of youre vieuw or theory?

No, i thought you were a Pan-Turkist b/c of the way you attacked me, Sorry, my apologies

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:49
Originally posted by Zagros

I hate people who have no respect for history and falsify it.

the same here...

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:47

read youre pm and calm down. I didnt say i whas pan-turkist or something, i say it because ive saw that several times!

But ethnically their origin is mixed, believed to have come from Transcaucasian peoples and the Medes. Their Turkicizing was one mainly of culture and language, and little of race. Most Azeris belong to Shi'i Islam, similar to the majority of Iran.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/azerbaijan.htm

Sorry if it's not aligned with your pan-turkism agenda! but don't attack me for it

So u're talking about what Armenians did to Azaris? is it comparable to what Turks did to Armenians?

But if we can't discuss in a civil manner and you cant defend your pan-turkish ideology using words, then your claims must be really weak.

Until you discuss civilized i have nothing more to say to you than god day

Say honestly, wich race isnt mixed today? Also you claim azaris are Iranian because of their religion? Am i an Arab because im an Sunni Muslim?

Am i an pan-turkist when i say contra version of youre vieuw or theory?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:42

I didn't know that they said Babak Khoramdin fought Persians as an Azari, that is a disgusting lie.

I hate people who have no respect for history and falsify it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:33
Originally posted by Kenaney

Originally posted by Iranban

I have a question. Isn't it said that Azaris are turkicized Persians meaning their language is a Turkic language? 

Well,

NO!

They are ethnicaly and culturaly Turks living in Iran, they came in that region mostly with Selcuk empire.

When you say "Turkcized persians", i remember what armenians did in Azerbaycan, what whas exactly yours point! They covered Turkish writings on floors, walls with cement with idea that later no one had the chance to claim that Azeri's where Turks and lived in that region who whas captured by armenians!!!! => Karabagh

Go to hell with youre nonsens theory...

Stop attacking!

I was only asking about what i have read!

But ethnically their origin is mixed, believed to have come from Transcaucasian peoples and the Medes. Their Turkicizing was one mainly of culture and language, and little of race. Most Azeris belong to Shi'i Islam, similar to the majority of Iran.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/azerbaijan.htm

Sorry if it's not aligned with your pan-turkism agenda! but don't attack me for it

So u're talking about what Armenians did to Azaris? is it comparable to what Turks did to Armenians?

But if we can't discuss in a civil manner and you cant defend your pan-turkish ideology using words, then your claims must be really weak.

Until you discuss civilized i have nothing more to say to you than god day

 

And here, this is written by an Azari and doesnt contain any of my so-called "nonsens theory..."

 

Originally posted by Iranban

I found this:

Turk khodeti
Azaris are not Turks. They are Iranians who speak Turkish

Keyvan Valizadeh
June 7, 2005
iranian.com unedited

I am sorry but my english is very weak. My name is Keyvan Valizadeh and I am an Iranian Azari born in Belgium.

I was taught in my childhood that we were "iranian tork" but when I was 16, I told myself that this was weird to be both iranian and turk. I wanted to be sure of my identity. And I remember that I hated the Persians because I heard from pan-turkist azaris that we were being oppressed by them for hundreds years.

The fact that we spoke a turkish language was enough for me to claim I was in fact a Turk. But with time I discovered that these pan-turkist nationalists didn't reveal us all about our history and many of their claims was totally false. But I feel to be turkish even if I begin hesitating about the origin of my people.

I was suddenly sad not to know my origins. I begin to search books about the history of the Azaris. I read books of Ahmad Kasravi and books of the "Azari nationalists". I understood that the historical facts were hidden by those "nationalists" and I found that many of their claims were lies (like the Azari language didn't exist and that the Azaris are in fact Turks that settled in Iran). Archeological founds said indeed the opposite.

But I was sure I was a Turk because of the language my family spoke.

My parents were very disappointing when I said to them that they were not Iranians and in fact traitors that prefered to change their identity. The castle of Babak Khorramdin, this Azari Hero that fought the Arabs was a proof for them that our ancestors were Iranians as both the Azaris and Persians spoke different dialects of the same language and that both were Zoroastrians at that time.

I was really impressed about their knowledge and was rather amused by the fact that I could have found answers of all my questions without reading all of these books. Azaris are in fact aware of their history, something the Turks don't know. But I wasn't still conviced.

I went to this famous Babak Castle that the pan-turkist Azaris praised. I didn't know why these pan-turkists that I admired earlier didn't said what was the real goal of his fight against the Arabs. Years before in Maragheh (where I am from) the pan-turkists gave me leaflets that said the "first Azeri hero that fought the Persians for their independance was Babak Khorramdin".

I was now shocked because I knew it was false. I knew that Babak (whose name I noticed was not turkish) was fighting the Arabs and not the Persians and wanted to restore the glory of Persia and the ancient religion of the Persians. And I distanced myself from them.  Because I hated their ocean of lies and like Hafez said: Do not consider the intestinal conflicts of sects for, not having found the truth, they went to the invention

Today I feel great and can argue about our origins with other Azaris. Many of the Azaris I spoke had discovered the Truth too and were glad to say that their ancestors were Cyrus or Dariush and not the Mongols the Turks claim to be their ancestors. Some others didn't want to know. Books about Azaris are indeed very rare and the Iranians don't have written books about us contrary to the Turks.

Today even if I don't hate the Persian anymore (how could I hate my brothers and sisters ?) I am really confused about the fact that they have dropped us in this historical battle. Because I assume they think they have no right to intervene. Something that is totally irresponsable. If others peoples of the Iranian family (be it Lors, Persians, Baluchs, Kurds, Bakhtiaris, Gilakis, etc) don't help us the political agenda of Turkey or the pan-turkists will be achieved.

 

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2005/June/Azari/index.html

 

How do you like it? How do you like it? MORE MORE MORE



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:31
Originally posted by Arpad

lol thats exactly how i felt, i gues i know now were azeris come from. Are the azeris in azerbaycan the same as the iranian ones, i mean are they more turkish or mixed with other ethnic group?

Pretty much the same, they are a mix of Turk/Talysh(Mede)/Persian/Armenian. Their genetics are the same as Anatolian Turks except replace Armenian and Greek with Talysh/Kurdish/Persian.

And please let's not discuss this again, there are enough topics already for it.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:27
Originally posted by Kenaney

Originally posted by Iranban

I have a question. Isn't it said that Azaris are turkicized Persians meaning their language is a Turkic language? 

Well,

NO!

They are ethnicaly and culturaly Turks living in Iran, they came in that region mostly with Selcuk empire.

When you say "Turkcized persians", i remember what armenians did in Azerbaycan, what whas exactly yours point! They covered Turkish writings on floors, walls with cement with idea that later no one had the chance to claim that Azeri's where Turks and lived in that region who whas captured by armenians!!!! => Karabagh

Go to hell with youre nonsens theory...

now im confused, the way i was brought up to believe was that azeris were a turkish and a group of turks,. and then i hear that they are turkified persians then that they are turks....

I guess since that we speak a turkish language would make us turkish because ppl in turkey are a mixture of turks, irani, armani, greek etc and it is wrong to say that some are turkifield greeks etc, they all speak the same language thus are turks. same with azeris our native tongue is azeri which is basically a diff accent of turkish and therefore would be turkish. when ppl ask me what nationality i am i mostly tel them that i am an turk from iran, and that the way i see it.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:20

lol thats exactly how i felt, i gues i know now were azeris come from. Are the azeris in azerbaycan the same as the iranian ones, i mean are they more turkish or mixed with other ethnic group?

 

And isnt it that the turks from eastern anatolia are same a azeris, turkified iranians?? because i herd that before the persians lost the battle of chalderan that there were many people in the osman empire called quizillbash (dunno spelling) and they were aparently persian aswell, and wer hoping for the persians to liberate them. and because of the loss persia lost eastern anatolia to the turks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:20
Originally posted by Iranban

I have a question. Isn't it said that Azaris are turkicized Persians meaning their language is a Turkic language? 

Well,

NO!

They are ethnicaly and culturaly Turks living in Iran, they came in that region mostly with Selcuk empire.

When you say "Turkcized persians", i remember what armenians did in Azerbaycan, what whas exactly yours point! They covered Turkish writings on floors, walls with cement with idea that later no one had the chance to claim that Azeri's where Turks and lived in that region who whas captured by armenians!!!! => Karabagh

Go to hell with youre nonsens theory...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:09

I found this:

Turk khodeti
Azaris are not Turks. They are Iranians who speak Turkish

Keyvan Valizadeh
June 7, 2005
iranian.com unedited

I am sorry but my english is very weak. My name is Keyvan Valizadeh and I am an Iranian Azari born in Belgium.

I was taught in my childhood that we were "iranian tork" but when I was 16, I told myself that this was weird to be both iranian and turk. I wanted to be sure of my identity. And I remember that I hated the Persians because I heard from pan-turkist azaris that we were being oppressed by them for hundreds years.

The fact that we spoke a turkish language was enough for me to claim I was in fact a Turk. But with time I discovered that these pan-turkist nationalists didn't reveal us all about our history and many of their claims was totally false. But I feel to be turkish even if I begin hesitating about the origin of my people.

I was suddenly sad not to know my origins. I begin to search books about the history of the Azaris. I read books of Ahmad Kasravi and books of the "Azari nationalists". I understood that the historical facts were hidden by those "nationalists" and I found that many of their claims were lies (like the Azari language didn't exist and that the Azaris are in fact Turks that settled in Iran). Archeological founds said indeed the opposite.

But I was sure I was a Turk because of the language my family spoke.

My parents were very disappointing when I said to them that they were not Iranians and in fact traitors that prefered to change their identity. The castle of Babak Khorramdin, this Azari Hero that fought the Arabs was a proof for them that our ancestors were Iranians as both the Azaris and Persians spoke different dialects of the same language and that both were Zoroastrians at that time.

I was really impressed about their knowledge and was rather amused by the fact that I could have found answers of all my questions without reading all of these books. Azaris are in fact aware of their history, something the Turks don't know. But I wasn't still conviced.

I went to this famous Babak Castle that the pan-turkist Azaris praised. I didn't know why these pan-turkists that I admired earlier didn't said what was the real goal of his fight against the Arabs. Years before in Maragheh (where I am from) the pan-turkists gave me leaflets that said the "first Azeri hero that fought the Persians for their independance was Babak Khorramdin".

I was now shocked because I knew it was false. I knew that Babak (whose name I noticed was not turkish) was fighting the Arabs and not the Persians and wanted to restore the glory of Persia and the ancient religion of the Persians. And I distanced myself from them.  Because I hated their ocean of lies and like Hafez said: Do not consider the intestinal conflicts of sects for, not having found the truth, they went to the invention

Today I feel great and can argue about our origins with other Azaris. Many of the Azaris I spoke had discovered the Truth too and were glad to say that their ancestors were Cyrus or Dariush and not the Mongols the Turks claim to be their ancestors. Some others didn't want to know. Books about Azaris are indeed very rare and the Iranians don't have written books about us contrary to the Turks.

Today even if I don't hate the Persian anymore (how could I hate my brothers and sisters ?) I am really confused about the fact that they have dropped us in this historical battle. Because I assume they think they have no right to intervene. Something that is totally irresponsable. If others peoples of the Iranian family (be it Lors, Persians, Baluchs, Kurds, Bakhtiaris, Gilakis, etc) don't help us the political agenda of Turkey or the pan-turkists will be achieved.

 

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2005/June/Azari/index.html



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:53

I have a question. Isn't it said that Azaris are turkicized Persians meaning their language is a Turkic language? As for me an azari is someone from northern Iran therefore an  Azari look like someone from northern Iran

And the sentence

and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians.

well all i can say is=

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:46

i am azeri turk, I live in iran, and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians

I call it how I see it, next time don't fabricate personal experiences, or at least take all factors into consideration before you do.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:42
hey dont call me a lyer, i deleted the message because i already sent you a pm thats why.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:22
I know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:22

Claiming ethnic purity isnt just absurd but racist and nonsense. Ataturk was a Turk. End of discussion.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:19

I accused him of lying and being a provocatuear, he deleted his post above mine, the one where he asked "how did you know I am from Aust.?" to Ardashir.

Ardashir must have read it from the topic I locked in the Iranian forum, the one that was intended to cause disruption.

Ataturk was brought into the equation as a pure Turanian then I mentioned I read somewhere that he has maybe Jewish origins from Spain.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:14

1- Who is a lying provocator? Arpad?

2- If he was lying, how did Ardashir know that?

3- The topic was about Turanians (which is a wrong word in my opinion), and it became a topic about Ataturk and provocative lyers. It isnt just absurd, but funny though...

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