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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Western Culture and Islam
    Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 16:45
I can understand the feelings of Muslims about America and the west when I see articles like this.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=581839


Calif. Ruling Sets Up Gay Marriage Fight
Judge's Same-Sex Marriage Ruling Foreshadows Constitutional Fight in California

Reno Suttles, left, and his boyfriend Jason Seifert hug as they listen to a speaker during a rally in favor of gay marriage in San Francisco, on Monday, March 14, 2005. San Francisco County Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer overturned California's ban on gay marriage Monday and said that withholding marriage licenses from same-sex couples trespasses on their civil rights. (AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez)
By LISA LEFF Associated Press Writer
The Associated PressThe Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO Mar 15, 2005 A judge has opened the way for the nation's most populous state to follow Massachusetts in allowing same-sex couples to tie the knot, but both sides in the debate predicted a vigorous court fight first.

San Francisco County Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer ruled Monday that while withholding marriage licenses from gays and lesbians has been the status quo, it constitutes discrimination the state can no longer justify..........







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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 17:00
Yep, Bin Laden and Bush will make perfect allies in the War on Homosexuality.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 23:07

Let the Muslims and Christians ally, I hate them both about equally anyway.  Bin Laden and Fallwell have far more in common than most individuals.

 

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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 23:23

The unholy alliance from hell as come to fruitation.



Dari is a pimp master
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 23:31

I beleive gays are just as much citizens as straights, and thus since they pay taxes, vote, and make money, should be entitled to full citizenship rights.  I personally think marriage is not only a dead andd useless institution but a waste of time and money, but its symbolic value is immense and fights like these MUST be won to prevent the Christian Taliban from getting more powerful.

Since theres no one on AE that i know of I will also have to take the personal position.  I myself am Bisexual (with a captial BBBBBBBBB!!!) and if I wished to get married ( I dont but hypothetically) I reserve my right to marry my love, who may be either a man or a woman.

Its stuff like this that shows the greatness of America, we are no different from any other people, but [parts of America, Massachusettes and California in this issue, know what true liberty is and its a ok to flaunt it in the face of reactionaries whther they be american talk show hosts or mullahs in Iran.  The Muslim worls may call us decadents (even though they have queers too just not publicaly) but we know we are more powerful, wealthier, and more influential so cleary we are not the ones doing something wrong in comparrrison!

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 02:42
I was hoping to see what the Muslim community on AE would say and not really talk about gay marriage but how this affects their opinions of the west.

I am not religious but I do not think it is right for people of the same sex to get marriage. Show me in history where this has happened, even the Greeks were expected to marry a woman at one point. I have two history degrees so please inform me!! I might have missed it!

They have the right to live in a civil arrangement but mainstrreaming is something I stand against because it is a slippery slope! What is next! Marry; your sister, polygamy, your dog or horse, a minor child or a family member. I think it would be one more step to making any criticism of the gay lifestyle a hate crime like in Canada. If a person wants to be bi or totally gay I will respect them but dont push it on me!!

I lived in a house of gay people in Walla Walla and they knew how I felt but they also knew I would defend them against anyone who would attack them. I really loved these people and enjoyed their company. I think you can still care about people but not agree with their choices. Come to think of it I should go down to Walla Walla and say hello!!

With a new strain of AIDS and other new sexually transmitted diseases in the gay community it is a very healthy choice but a choice.

I agree there extreme Christians but most cannot be described as Taliban although they can get on my nerves also.

I still would like to know how Islam reacts to this.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 02:45

since when does something need a historical precident to be inacted, the constitution of th eunited states had no historical precident...

and that comparison of what two consenting adults to marrying animals and children is ludicrous, you sound like that indiot santorum.

 

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 02:50
We can agree to disagree! and end it at that

But my question really is the reaction of Islam to this and not whether it is moral or not.
How do they feel about the west?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 03:02

I agree with you that no one should be forced into tolerance but I am not in support of any type of canadian style anti discrimination law as I beleive in free speech, but me being able to marry a guy does not infringe on your rights at all, where as you denying me that right does infringe upon my rights.  We should just leave everyone to themselves as long as they dont hurt anyone.

oh but I just thought of a historical precident.  The Berdache in Native American societies...that seems to be an institutionalized man on man relationship involving marriage.  There have also been Egyptian tombs for single sex couples found recently.

Also we would be denying mairriage rights to many of the great gays and bis of history including Alexander the Great, Babur the Tiger, Oscar Wilde, etc etc

In Sumeria the worlds first civilization from which we all stem there has been alot of homoerotic art, clearly it didnt ruin their progress...as they are the progenisis of civilization.

And int he Muslim world specifically in central Asia there was much of it.  In transoxiana the post Timurids often took lovers of their own gender, and one of the most famous of all Muslim poets ( I forget his name) wrote many poems expressing his love for men above women.

So in the inverse of the western world the Muslim world was once more tolernat and now is not, wheras the western world has moved in more of a cycle, embracing it as in Greece and Rome to some extent, denying its existence and now coming back around.

It shouldbe known that during the crusades a common Muslim stereotype of crusaders is that they liked boys alot more than the muslims..though it could have just been an insult, very common in Muslim documents describing crusaders though...

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 06:03
Originally posted by eaglecap



They have the right to live in a civil arrangement but mainstrreaming is something I stand against because it is a slippery slope! What is next! Marry; your sister, polygamy, your dog or horse, a minor child or a family member.

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. We're not talking about marrying family members or animals, but we're talking about gay marriage.
The funny thing of the slippery slope fallacy is that it's possible to reverse it: "If we don't let gays marry, what's next? not letting men and women marry each other"


With a new strain of AIDS and other new sexually transmitted diseases in the gay community it is a very healthy choice but a choice.

If people marry they usually have less sexual contact with other people, so the risk of getting AIDS or other STD's will decrease. So same-sex marriage may infect decrease the spread of STD's
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 08:58
They have the right to live in a civil arrangement but mainstrreaming is something I stand against because it is a slippery slope! What is next! Marry; your sister, polygamy, your dog or horse, a minor child or a family member.


I really don't see how allowing marriages between adult humans[\i] has anything to do with marrying dogs or a horse. Homosexual marriage has nothing to do with the eroding incests laws or legal definitions of age of consent.

You need to explain how one thing is related to the next.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 11:08

Back in the 60's, 70,s and 80,s gays were very anti-marriage. They were basically against the norm of social acceptance. Now that marital rights have surfaced to the forefront, gays want to capitalize on the financial benefits that a government endorsed marriage carries. Tax cuts and medical insurance rights are just a few of the benefits married couples have.

Islamic teachings disapprove of gay behavior. There are passages in the Koran that condemns such behavior: 

Chapter 27
27:55 "You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

Islam is a guide from God. It contains a moral compass, as well as, laws governing proper behavior. Seductiveness and improper socialization among sexes are points of mention within the Book.

 

Yes, there has been gay and incestuous behavior throughout the ages. Doesn't mean it is proper though. In present day America we have minorities seeking rights for whatever  their cause may be. Anybody can chose their behavior as they wish, yet to legalize something in the U.S. there is due course of law. I believe it was something like 20 states in 2004 that rejected gay marriage. Non have passed.

Gays may have a point in wanting benefits for their loved ones or themselves. But DO NOT call it marriage. That is absurd. Psychologically, one tries to rationalize one's behavior and seek justification for it. When an opposition ensues, cognitive dissonance appears.

Sexuallity is a hormonal, behavioral and psychological thing. In order to congruently get these diverse qualities to match we can use a sensical approach,  be guided by what we were taught or what we believe in. For the religious among us that guidance is what we ask God for.



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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 13:23
The question was not whether gay marriage is acceptable or moral but how does Islam view the west.

I would have posted this somewhere else if the question was about the morality of gay marriage. I should have used another example.

I would respond to the posts but I want to put this back on track. How does the Islamic world vew the west over issues like this or even pornography? Also, our seemingly lack of morals in a free society, measured by their standards. (not mine or yours but Islams)

Seko came very close but as a whole!!

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 17:31
Seko,

If religious people want to keep homosexuals from having religious marriages, I have no problem with that. They can do whatever they want within their church.

But a civil marriage is nothing but a legal contract. It establishes new kinship relationships, property structure, and who makes a decision in case the spouse is unable to decide on his own.

As it stands right now, not being married is more financially advantageous than being married. People wanting to get married have to take a hit. These gay couples are willing to literally pay that price. They can already leave their property to their lover.

I also will remind you that many states had laws against black and white people getting married. Some churches had it as a rule of god against their religion. So that fact that 20 states want to take away basic rights from homosexuals does not impress me.
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  Quote rhazes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 20:31
Originally posted by eaglecap

I was hoping to see what the Muslim community on AE would say and not really talk about gay marriage but how this affects their opinions of the west.

I consider myself Muslim, and I live in the West. That being said, I have no qualms with the idea of state-"sanctioned" gay marriage.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 13:22
I meant as a whole but I thank you for your post!

This is just one of many moral issues that could put Islam at odds with the West and I should have used other examples as well.

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 22:54
Eaglecap,

It just occurred to me that you may want to talk about what bothers fundamentalist Muslims. My wife and I work with a number of Muslims, and they are quite secular, but religious people. They don't seem too bothered with this issue though.

I am sure that homosexuality bothers fundamentalists. But this is not their main problem with the West. If you pay attention to their speeches, their main problems are:

1. The occupation of holy-land by westerners;this is, the existence of Israel and the U.S. military in Iraq and Saudi-Arabia.

2. The perceived loss of Islamic identity in their national cultures to global western culture.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 19:22
Originally posted by Tobodai

I agree with you that no one should be forced into tolerance but I am not in support of any type of canadian style anti discrimination law as I beleive in free speech, but me being able to marry a guy does not infringe on your rights at all, where as you denying me that right does infringe upon my rights. We should just leave everyone to themselves as long as they dont hurt anyone.


oh but I just thought of a historical precident. The Berdache in Native American societies...that seems to be an institutionalized man on man relationship involving marriage. There have also been Egyptian tombs for single sex couples found recently.


Also we would be denying mairriage rights to many of the great gays and bis of history including Alexander the Great, Babur the Tiger, Oscar Wilde, etc etc


In Sumeria the worlds first civilization from which we all stem there has been alot of homoerotic art, clearly it didnt ruin their progress...as they are the progenisis of civilization.


And int he Muslim world specifically in central Asia there was much of it. In transoxiana the post Timurids often took lovers of their own gender, and one of the most famous of all Muslim poets ( I forget his name) wrote many poems expressing his love for men above women.


So in the inverse of the western world the Muslim world was once more tolernat and now is not, wheras the western world has moved in more of a cycle, embracing it as in Greece and Rome to some extent, denying its existence and now coming back around.


It shouldbe known that during the crusades a common Muslim stereotype of crusaders is that they liked boys alot more than the muslims..though it could have just been an insult, very common in Muslim documents describing crusaders though...




I have never heard of this tribe but thank you for the link.

As for Alexander he was never married to a man but he only married women, as was the custom for Greeks. I tend to believe he was bi sexual but I have never seen anything sources about him marrying a man. I have taken a course on Hellenism on the graduate level, plus I have read primany and secondary sources about him.

The question was not really about our view of this choice but how does Islam precieves America as a culture. I do not understand it but I would not stop someone from choosing this way of life but on the same token I do not think it is hateful to warn people of the dangers of this choice, especially if they are my friend. I do have gay friends, I never close friendship to anyone!!
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 16:53

http://www.bcholmes.org/tg/berdache.html

 

heres some intro info, the best info is in anthropologic studies.  Its actually many many tribes that practice this.

And from my personl experience..its more dangerous to date a woman than a man..I once had a stalker and most are pretty manipulative.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 18:33
Thank you for the link and it settles a question I have had! I still think this is the exception and I am sure not all tribes viewed it the same way. It was part of Greek and Roman culture but amongst the Germanic tribes it was a death sentence, terrible.
Homosexuels were treated as common criminals and ritually strangled and their bodies were thrown into the peat bogs. I cannot recall the source but I will try and find it, all my history books are in storage.
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