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China vs US

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: China vs US
    Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 06:12

China can't cross the Pacific and fight the US, it lacks the carriers, strategic bombers, sea and air lift. US heavy bombers would put the PLAAF on the back foot from the first minutes, good fighters would have to defend vital strategic targets in China itself. On the coast the PLAAF and PLAN would have to contend with the rest of the USAF and USN without those fighters tied up defending mainland targets. When the US landed troops for raids etc the PLA would be wthout airsupport, unless it gave up other tasks leaving it vulnerable in those areas.

China just doesn't have enough top rate resources to effectively fight the US.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 21:03

no one wanna fight the us or invade ths us.

a potential war would be fought between china and the us for the province of taiwan, which is within the fighting range of a dozen chinese airbases. no one can successfully invade china as no one can successfully invade the us. the americans were not able to conquer north korea some 50 years ago when china was much technologically inferior. today's china is much more powerful and technologically advanced in all scales.

china's missile technology is one of the most advanced in the world. other countries with advanced misisle technology are the us and russia. that's about it.

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  Quote lastbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 20:51
It wasn't the inferiority of technology, it was the surprize attack of the "volunteer" armies of the Chinese. They didn't think the Chinese were going to attack..

Edited by lastbout
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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:28
Originally posted by coolstorm

a potential war would be fought between china and the us for the province of taiwan, which is within the fighting range of a dozen chinese airbases. no one can successfully invade china as no one can successfully invade the us. the americans were not able to conquer north korea some 50 years ago when china was much technologically inferior. today's china is much more powerful and technologically advanced in all scales.

There were politcal reasons for this. We  were forced to conduct the war in a highly restrained fashion; never retaliating against bases inside Chinese territory. Millitary strategists in Washington realized that the U.S. could not expand the war against China without starting a new world war with Russia.

Originally posted by coolstorm

china's missile technology is one of the most advanced in the world. other countries with advanced misisle technology are the us and russia. that's about it.

This isnt true. All NATO bloc countries have most of the same missle technology as the U.S.. France and England have strong indiginous missile production industries. Isreals missile technology is also significantly farther along than China's.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 22:48

This isnt true. All NATO bloc countries have most of the same missle technology as the U.S.. France and England have strong indiginous missile production industries. Isreals missile technology is also significantly farther along than China's.

this is not completely accurate. the us does have a more advanced technology than china and so does russia. that's about it. all nato nations use us produced missiles but they cannot develope missiles of the same standard on their own but to produce them under license. china is doing the same with russian missiles.

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  Quote tyty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 18:49

     On the surface, it appears that the United States would win.  The reality, (my opinion), is that China is winning....

     Although the media tries to make a decent argument: World's largest army not necessarily the strongest May 28, 1999, What they fail to mention is the fact that China has at least 2.8 million active troops, that is, if you believe our CIA...   (I believe it is perhaps up to twice as much), Vs. The U.S. @ 350,000 active troops.  "If one were to include these forces the number of deployed troops worldwide would be around 350,000..." Where are the Legions? [SPQR] Global Deployments of US Forces.  Call me naive, but at almost a 10:1 active ratio, (with most of our active forces already deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq while China's are just sitting around, I am afraid that we would run out of bullets....See below:

China: Military manpower - availability: males age 15-49: 379,524,688 (2004 est.) Military manpower - fit for military service:males age 15-49: 208,143,352 (2004 est.) Military manpower - reaching military age annually:males: 12,494,201 (2004 est.)

VS the U.S.:males age 15-49: 73,597,731 (2004 est.), NA (2004 est.),  males: 2,124,164 (2004 est.) cia.gov website: military....

     I won't get into the economic crises we have put ourselves into against the Chinese....China has just entered the industrial revolution, and although almost 120 years later, with hundreds of MILLIONS of workers (+ hundreds of millions MORE in INDIA), willing to do YOUR JOB for 1/10th to 1/100th what an American is asking for in the states, China just has to wait....Just keep selling us there goods and keep buying up our debt and U.S. dollars....and when the need suits them, when they no longer need us to drive their financial engine, (due to increasing trade with the Eurozone, East Asia, etc.), and they start to dump U.S. dollars, stocks, debt, etc., it will get UGLY....for the U.S.

     We DO live in interesting times...."May the Lord answer you when you are in distress; may the name of the God of Jacob protect you."

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 21:24

if asian central banks start dumping us assets, the situation will be terrible. however, at least for now, a sharp depreciation of the us dollars caused by such dumping will do more damages to china than to the us. a depreciation of the us dollars =  an appreciation of the chinese currency, which in tern, would cause an estimated loss of 10 percent of gdp in china resulted from a decrease in jobs, export, and an increase in import, deflation etc.

in the us, it will trigger inflation, recession, or even depression due to high interest rates...

it will be ugly to everyone i guess.



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 00:43
i'm interested to know which countries in Pacific  Asia (two Koreas, Japan, Southeast Asia etc) will side with the American and which ones are with China?
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 01:36

n. korea, burma, pakistan, and singapore (have been a middleman between china and the us but in case of an all scale war, they will back their brothers, sisters, and blood relatives. the singaporean fouding father is very closely tied to mainland china) will probably side with china.

s. korea, indonesia (due to exploitation of chinese businessmen in the country), japan, thailand will probably side with america.

malaysia, vietnam, cambodia, hard to say

same thing with the two koreas, if s. korea is to be attacked by japan, the north will probably fight with the south to fight the invaders.



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 17:11
Isn't the French slbm programme far more sophisticated than the Chinese missiles? Europeans are also making sophisticated cruise missiles. But who cares about missiles anyway? China can't make a plane to match the Rafale, Eurofighter, A400M or helicopters like the Tiger, NH90 and EH101. If missiles were the best then the richest countries would base their armaments on missiles. The reason China uses missiles is because they can't make planes which can survive hostile defences or defend their own airfields, so they rely on a missile's lack of a fixed base and kamikaze attack profile to survive and penetrate defences.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 17:35

Isn't the French slbm programme far more sophisticated than the Chinese missiles? Europeans are also making sophisticated cruise missiles. But who cares about missiles anyway? China can't make a plane to match the Rafale, Eurofighter, A400M or helicopters like the Tiger, NH90 and EH101. If missiles were the best then the richest countries would base their armaments on missiles. The reason China uses missiles is because they can't make planes which can survive hostile defences or defend their own airfields, so they rely on a missile's lack of a fixed base and kamikaze attack profile to survive and penetrate defences. 

in term of missile, rocket, icbms, spacecrafts, no, the french are not more sophisticated.

china also has more nuclear warheads than england and france.

u gotta start reading some serious sources online.

any of the following planes can match:

su27, su30, su33, su35, j11, j12



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 21:05
Originally posted by coolstorm

n. korea, burma, pakistan, and singapore (have been a middleman between china and the us but in case of an all scale war, they will back their brothers, sisters, and blood relatives. the singaporean fouding father is very closely tied to mainland china) will probably side with china.

I find it unlikly that Burma or Singapore would take China's side agaist the US. The US has a major strategic alliance with Singapore, and Burma has a long history of being politically neutral. Pakistan would almost definatly side with the US. Malaysia would probably take sides against who ever Singapore would ally herself with. Likewise with Indonesia, while they would be glade to see China fall they would be unlikly to side with the US, especially if Australia intervened on the US's behalf. The positions North Korea, South Korea, the Philipenes and Japan are self-evident. India has no love for China but would probably stay neutral, same with Russia. Vietnam has a long history of conflict with China, they might help the US secretly, difficult to say.

Originally posted by coolstorm

any of the following planes can match:

su27, su30, su33, su35, j11, j12

Besides the Su-27, China has no significant number of any of those aircraft. They are on the way up however, China's airforce has definatly come a long way over the last decade.

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 01:54

China only builds the Su's under lisence, it doesn't develop them thus its airforce is vulnerable to a disruption of imports. Europe on the other hand has developed, without outside help, 2 fighters which can fight the Su family on even or better terms. If indigenous Chinese fighters are so good they wouldn't need to import Russian planes. Europe also has the capacity to build tanker/transports as well as strategic airlifters, all of which China has to import, and has yet to do so in any sort of decent numbers.

A quick look at Globalsecurity has confirmed what I already knew. The yet to enter service Chinese JL-2 SLBM has a range of 8000km, throw weight of 700kg and cep of 500m ish. This compares poorly to the in-service French M45 with a range of 6000km, throw wieght of 1400km and cep -500m. The Chinese JL-2 will enter service roughly at the same time as the new French M51 which has major increases in range, throw wieght, pen-aids, warhead design and accuracy. Please tell me exactly which Chinese missiles are better than equivelent European missiles?

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 02:36

when there's a war, china can, however, produce as many aircrafts as they want to fulfill the need.

j12 is not being produced under license.

countries produce weapons more aggressively in war time.

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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 03:58
Modern wars never last long enough for war material production to make make much of a difference.
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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 05:59

The latest Chinese fighter still has to import engines from Russia, supply of which may be interupted in times of crisis. Since everyone else can produce more weapons during a period of tension this isn't a realistic option for China to pull ahead of rivals.

The fact of the matter is that China doesn't have the long established industrial and technological expertise to build a competitive fighter itself. The Western world has lots of experience using the most advanced indutrial techniques and materials to build structually superior aircraft and engines, and then can fit these with the worlds best electronics.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 23:18

I'm not believing there will be a nuclear war between two unclear countries.

you know the effect after a unclear war.

And also Chinese government has promised China will never  use nukes first, Xiaoping Deng  said "We chinese will not eat our words!"

please dont judge a war between two unclear countries by nukes.

but the terrible thing is, if someone lose his confidence, he would do anything he can. Chinese will not be that one. But who will?

God bless America. Dont make the mistake again and again. (1950s, 1960s)

We need the world peacefully.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2005 at 23:35

yes, chinese people are peaceful. and china doesn't wanna have a war with foreigners unless it gets invaded. but the fact is most foreigners are looking forward to fighting a war against us. we have no choice.

resuming a civil war between roc and prc is not an act of invading a foreign country.

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 17:08
I don't think anyone wishes a war between China and the USA, or even Tiawan. Modern wars are amazingly destructive and lethal, and nukes make it more so. But this thread asked who would win, and I think the USA would win any conventional war and probably 'win' a nuke war in the sense of being able to nuke what it wanted in China but not suffering even close to equivilent damage in return.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 21:53

Originally posted by Riain

I don't think anyone wishes a war between China and the USA, or even Tiawan. Modern wars are amazingly destructive and lethal, and nukes make it more so. But this thread asked who would win, and I think the USA would win any conventional war and probably 'win' a nuke war in the sense of being able to nuke what it wanted in China but not suffering even close to equivilent damage in return.

that's contradictory. u've underestimated the destruction of a nuclear war. it's estimated the us can destory china 20 times with nukes, and china can destory the us 2 times with nukes. unless the us and china were enlarged by 20 times in size, the destruction would be equally disastrous.

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